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Metalstorm
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 05:08 pm: | 
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Walk softly and carry a big stick works for me 
A hand & a half broad sword is probably the best non violent weapon since it seems to intimidate more than a gun or knife but boy is it hard to conceal 
I like the ASP Baton. Small, light and straight to business. They make so much sense that they are most likely illegal here in CA. I'm gonna have to check into that because after reading all of this, I want one!
(Message edited by metalstorm on December 31, 2008) |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 08:59 pm: |
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First, any good unarmed combat teacher ( Karate, Kung Fu, (panda or other), Savate, etc. will tell you that any technique that is based on a weapon leaves you vulnerable if you don't have a weapon, can't deploy it, or have it taken away.
You have to have a clue what to do no matter what you carry. No one expects you to be Bruce Lee, but if you are a stick fighter, you better know what to do when you drop the stick. ( substitute Glock for stick & it's just as true. )
Weapons of any kind are meant to increase your effectiveness. Given a choice, go for the nastiest thing you can legally carry in your locale. 2nd thing to consider is CAN you actually carry it all the time? All the gun magazines would have you believe everyone carries a custom Colt .45...... not so.
In many/most places you must not reveal you have a weapon until you use it. If they bad guy stops & runs away when you pull out your laser guided 40mm Bofers gun or pointy stick great! you win! disengage & deal with the aftermath. But you have to hide it. So most armed guys have small easy to hide weapons.
Re: 21 feet. It's a mantra among LEO's that a knife wielding thug at 21 feet is an immediate threat & a legitimate target.
Sure, We both have our weapons out, 21 feet, a rubber knife vs. airsoft pistol & the pistol should win. Put the airsoft gun in a pocket holster & the rubber knife in hand in jacket pocket? not so sure.
Be alert, we need all the lerts we can get. |
Corporatemonkey
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2008 - 10:38 pm: |
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So much to go over
How is it that the supposedly authentic police dash cam video includes various panning and zooming activity? Does it have some kind of sensor that allows it to always point/focus on the officer?
Blake most of the police type shows (cops, world scariest videos, TRUTV,etc...) use video editing software to zoom in on a particular portion of the video. They then use a software filter to enhance the now fuzzy video.
If you are familiar with the "Ken Burns" effect, it is basically the same, but with video.
Have you ever run accross folks that are obsessed with "self-defense" and who seem to be itching for a chance to put in use their particular mode/tool.
Yes, and they scare me. Very few people know that I have ever owned a baton, I don't advertise it, and rarely show it.
Mention earlier in this thread about concealed weapons classes was spot on, a lot of Johnny Hard C*cks show up to those things.
A serious mugger isn't going to stand 21' away yelling threats, is he. He's going to ambush you from behind and "incapacitate" you before you know what hit you and he may be working with an accomplice. You'll have no chance to defend yourself if the muggers' plan falls into line. No?
At least in my area serious muggers are rare. Most often you get an aggressive panhandler that looses it. Usually they need a fix, and when they get desperate they get aggressive.
The true planned ahead type crime is rare, more for the media to dwell on .
What kind of situations are some of y'all putting yourselves into where self defense is such a heightened concern for you
Have you ever been to a major city after dark? NY, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston. I am not talking about a car based city (L.A., Miami, D.C.), but a city with a viable downtown population.
They are mostly all the same. People living in the suburbs have forced all the undesirables back into the cities. It is a classic NIMBY situation.
Personally I feel more out of sort when I visit a suburban mall. The crazy drivers fighting for parking spots. Rude customers in the stores. Lazi faire parents and their screaming children.
You either like city living or you don't... |
P_squared
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 03:32 am: |
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Blake, clarification:
"Someone 21' away has a gun pointed at you and you can attack them with a knife before they can shoot you?" No. If you've already got me covered, I'm thinking of other things than trying to pull an obvious weapon on you. If however, you're pistol is holstered, I'm confident enough to bet you the beer of your choice.
Simple experiment requiring an assistant:
From a relaxed, normal standing position, time it takes to draw, aim & fire on target as quickly as possible.
From a relaxed, normal standing position, time it takes to cover 21' and draw your knife as quickly as possible.
Compare the 2 times. The person with the gun in holster is automatically at a disadvantage, since they are REACTING to the threat rapidly approaching from 21' away.
What you do should always be dependent upon the situation. That includes listening to that little voice that told you that you shouldn't be there in the 1st place.
Happy New Year's everyone. |
Cowboy
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 05:23 am: |
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As I was ranch raised and have been carying a pistol for 55 yrs. I have shot cayotes, dogs, fox, snakes and many other varmits. if my agressor is 21 ft. away hell I could kill super man from that distance. |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 08:45 am: |
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Regarding brands of batons, I only have experience with ASP. It is a quality product, but any extendable baton is subject to being damaged in use. I know we have bent several in training while hitting bags with them. As a result we no longer use the batons for training. We use hardwood sticks or similar for the striking drills. Much cheaper and more durable. |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 08:48 am: |
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The 21 feet argument! 
The 21 foot rule is a legal/practical issue for law enforcement people.
If he has a knife at close range, he is a valid threat. You can shoot & not get screwed by the dept. A guy with a knife 100 yards/feet away is someone you have time to talk out of a stupid act, you have time to run to your car & drive away or over him, call for backup, light a cigarette, convince your boss over the radio you have to make a life or death decision on, etc.
At 7 yards/21 feet, you don't have time for "talk the perp into not killing you 101" and you must decide, now, right now, without calling for advice, or having room to retreat until the bad guy calms down. It's a decision distance, NOT a my trained reflexes are faster distance.
I don't know how 7 yards became the magic number. But it is common in LEO training. & it's not as stupid as it sounds. A running man can cover 7 yards fast enough to push the decision cycle. If you are still in "what all this then?" mode & the bad guy is in "I gotta kill this cop to get away" mode, he can easily beat you. ( or "the guy over there controls the bats that are eating my soul" mode if he's done some bad absinthe. )
So....
21 feet, you are ready, he is ready, is not the same as real life. Most police are hurt bad not by muggers, but by freaked out house wives that are being beaten by their abusive husbands and go berserk when the police arrive and arrest the abuser. Don't ask me to explain the psychology of that. The reality is all too common.
Cowboy, what kind of holster? Colt SAA in a mexican open carry rig? I'd bet on Superman or the Flash, but Batman is in danger from you. ( Ok, you got green Kryptonite bullets & belt buckle so you slow Clark Kent down.... }
You have an ankle holster with a snub .38, bad guy 7 yards & running is up to YOUR trained reflexes......but more important is your mental state. Are you in alert status? Day dreaming about a new 1125CR? Still trying to talk him into not killing your family? It's a variable. A really large one.
Arguing about it is silly.
Good advice about using wood batons for training. Any telescoping baton can get tweaked in use. Consider it like a helmet, if you had to use it, hang it on the wall as a "I lived" trophy & get a new one.
(Message edited by aesquire on January 01, 2009) |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 03:49 pm: |
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LMAO...great idea...."liberalism is a mental disease"
I am not sure what to make of this comment Ferris.
Would you care to enlighten me please?
Also - with regards to the suggestion that Corporate take up Boxing - the dogs of the world that prey on others are just that - DOGS. They sense fear and will usually attack the weak or those who appear weak. I have found through personal experience that self defence using what God gave you has an effect on your self confidence. This is the reason that I believe despite my inability to not say what I think I have not yet been tken to task outside the boxing ring.
As for moving - what is so wrong about that?
If where you live no longer appeals to you and you are not prepared to change what is happening then go somewhere else. Our lives are not a practice run fellas - Life is too short to be somewhere where we do not like to be.
(Message edited by Bombardier on January 01, 2009) |
Ourdee
| | Posted on Thursday, January 01, 2009 - 06:16 pm: |
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Got a pistol? Do you practice with it? Draw and shoot? Reloading? What distance is your target?
Sometimes I practice shooting at little targets (shotgun shells and beany babies) at 50 to 100 yards. That is fun with my kid. When I'm serious, it's a full size silhouette at 5 feet out to 21 feet. At 21 feet I can 10 ring about a 2" group with .45 ACP. I don't use the sight when doing this. At 21 feet you won't have time for sights or extending your arm, so don't practice it. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 07:49 am: |
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P2,
Why would you be running at me to cut me if I am not threatening you? Your 21' scenario makes no sense to me from a reality perspective. In reality, you are either in a bar or in an alleyway. If someone with a gun is threatening you, the gun is already drawn and you've brought a knife to a gunfight.
Also, if you start running at me with a knife, please don't imagine I'll be standing still waiting for you to cut me. If I have a gun in a holster, I'll move away while drawing it. Again, you've brought a knife to a gun fight. And again, why are you running at me aiming to cut me if I've not yet threatened you with my gun? Sounds like a quick way to become inmate #next. |
P_squared
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 11:01 am: |
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Blake, me thinks we're talking past each other based on our perspectives.
I wouldn't be running at you with a knife. I'm not that kind of person. But I’m game for paintball guns, rubber knives & beer when we can get around to it.  If the pistol is already drawn on me, it’s a different scenario. Different scenario = different tactics.
My point that I'm trying to make, (and obviously doing very poorly at it) is that within 21' or less, a holstered pistol is not necessarily the most effective weapon. In close, a knife can be more effective. More importantly, any weapon you can’t employ & use effectively is useless, so always have a plan ‘b’ (and ‘c’ ‘d’ & ‘e’).
As the distance between you & an aggressor decreases, you’re available time to react is decreased as well. Think of it as your personal defensive ‘bubble.’ You can have multiple ‘bubbles,’ overlapping each other. Inside 21’, you may want to consider different tactics, which can include creating time/distance between you and the aggressor. Or maybe using a different tool/tactic?
Your ultimate goal is to stop the aggressor from penetrating your last/smallest ‘bubble’ and causing you bodily harm. How you do it can be different than what someone else does, as long as it works for you. } |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 12:07 pm: |
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My "Ultimate Goal" is to not be in those sort of situations. |
Ourdee
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 01:18 pm: |
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Weapon question (non gun related)
Everyone should carry a grenade. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 01:25 pm: |
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I think the original question was that he didn't want a gun. My answer ??? Get a good dog or two. Its companionship at home and where ever you go. If trained properly or even if its the dogs instincts you cannot go wrong. I don't need a stink'n gun. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 03:42 pm: |
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P2,
I hear you. Further to the discussion though. I don't think firearms need to be tough to draw quickly. I know of more than a couple folks who carry a small self defense firearm, like a small.32 auto, in their pants pocket. |
Buellerthanyou
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2009 - 06:44 pm: |
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Get 'e a shillelagh and lay about ye! 
http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/AEmblem/shil lelagh.html
http://www.walkingequipment.com/shillelagh.htm
Seriously, a walking cane is a highly visible deterrent and you'll look like a stylish man-about-town.
HellBuelly J
"Speak softly and carry a big stick."
--Theodore Roosevelt
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Mark61
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 05:29 pm: |
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How about a canned air horn? Make noise/draw attention to yourself and the attacker will want to go somewhere else soon as possible! |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 05:38 pm: |
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I (heart) Chuck Norris |
Just_ziptab
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 06:05 pm: |
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shillelagh........... Can only remember hearing that word in a cartoon. |
Blackbelt
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 11:14 pm: |
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Ok my turn to chim in, I have read alot on here about personal defense, and what should be carried during a walk. I can tell you that it is all a matter of what you are comfortable with and what is most effective.
I can tell you from my 20 years of training, and my own experiences of being attacked. I have been in the Martial Arts for over 20 years, ranging from TaeKwon-Do, to now also taking on Judo and Jeetkwon-do. I gotta say that most martial arts will help in building confidence, but when the situation arises, nothing can prepare you for what you body will ultimatly do on autopilot. In my martial arts life, I have had extensive training w/ the Fillipino "baston" or cane.
Which is nothing more than a 26-30" rattan cane. This is VERY HANDY!!! becuase it can be anything like a stick, baton, broom handle, you get the point. And them ain't illegal. Hardcorps is right about the pepper spray, it sucks monkey balls to be sprayed w/ but it is still sastainable to fight w/ (trust me on this... STINGS LIKE A SOB! But I still faught off 4 opponents) It was a training excersize, from a police officer friend about 5 years ago.. a good 2 day course but could have done w/o that...lol
My advice, stick w/ what you are comfortable w/ and practice. If you lived closer I would Gladly give you lessons on being more proficient w/ anything I have been trained on...even Katana- even though you can't legally carry one. still fun to learn. |
2008xb12scg
| | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 11:37 pm: |
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Surprised you don't ride a Ninja, Blackbelt...
J/K hope you have a sense of humor, Last time I got in a fight with a blackbelt it didn't go my way...
nothing can prepare you very true. This may sound silly, but friend made me a long key chain that fit in my hand like a flexible handle. Hit somebody with a dozen keys and it will hurt. If they have a gun pointed at you and want your wallet, car, whatever, might just be better to give it to them...You can always replace things. |
Bhillberg
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 01:41 am: |
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I will first say that I have not read this complete thread. I don't know what has already been stated. I do see from the last dozen or so posts that there are already some experts on here.I also do NOT consider myself an expert. This however is a free country and I am about to have my freedom of speech. I DO carry a concealed weapon, two of them if not more. Now before you think I am a complete nutjob the obvious two are 1) I have my concealed carry license and carry a handgun (more of a let my voice be heard with the government than anything) and 2) a pocketnife, easy one hand opener (SOG pentagon elite) Now onto the others, I have NEVER been trained in martial arts or formal self defense. I have however been an Infantry Marine for the past 5 plus years. The MOST important things that the Corps has taught me is that 1) never say die, always fight to the death and have that mindset at all times. If you ever do find yourself in a situation where someone is threatening your life or well being this is key, don't back down. Look for an escape route but if your back is to the wall and you can escape then you CANNOT die!!! Mindset is key, as proven through most martial arts programs. 2) WEAPONS OF OPPORTUNITY this can be anything, usually seen as "dirty fighting" as I already said though "try to find a way out of the fight" if there is no way out, look for bricks, bottles, brooms, keys, car doors, telephones, anything! anything to equalize the situation.A rock, anything harder than your fist (which is honestly pretty soft compared to a skull) use 45 degree angles to retreat away and size up the situation and look for that weapon of opportunity, if there isn't one remember that elbows are harder than fists, and skulls |
Blackbelt
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:57 pm: |
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funny thing is my first bike was a 1985 Ninja 600R... and now you must DIE
ok I have a sense of humor.. lol
I agree w/ what you say also, and being a Marine you have more experience than most.. I have only been in 3 fights and only one involved more than one person.. I walked away w/ a broken finger, and a black eye, two were in the hospitol for dislocated shoulders (arm bars/joint locks are my friends) and one guy had 3 cracked ribs from one kick.. MOVIES LIE!!! that was the fight that scared the living crudd out of me, because it showed what training can do for you, and against you. I didn't like what I did, and to tell you the truth I didn't remember most.. lol
Defense of yourself and others is more important than monitary items... and my weird rule of thumb when I am out with friends... if you get your dumb azz in a fight and I have to pull you out... I will help then I am kicking your azz because you made me help you...lol.. just thought I would share If I ever run in to anyone and they want to hear that story of how I proved that.. just look me up |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:40 pm: |
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Are we over childish arguments about who can beat who with a battle axe? 
Actually, I'm pretty good with a battle axe. I have one on display in the bedroom that was made for me by a blacksmith buddy who used a 1200's original from the Tower of London collection as a pattern. It's a traditional crescent axe on one side & a can opener on the other. I only practice with it in full armor, so as to avoid accidental weight loss. ( the armor is festooned with lights right now as my Solstice/Christmas tree in the living room, between tourneys & practice )
It is my primary home defense "grab it and see what that noise was" pokey thing, since coyotes or black bear have a higher probability of waking me than street goblins. I hope. It certainly is impractical for concealed carry. Just as it is as effective a weapon as it was 10,000 years ago.
For coyotes attacking the neighbors though, I'd go with shotgun. Or semi auto, pump, or lever action rifle. None of which have practical utility in an urban setting as a carry weapon.
A baton, where legal, is an excellent defensive weapon, and the ASP brand is quite good, and I'd ask you local friendly police officer what kind he uses, and if he likes it. You can usually buy them at Uniform stores, though I caution everyone that "impersonating a ---" is usually a crime.
Thanks Blackbelt, for reminding me that real life fighting involves pain & broken people. We tend to forget that, when we are lucky enough not to have it rubbed in our faces by harsh reality. ( nicely put by the way ) The winner in a knife fight goes to the hospital.
I'd like this thread to turn into a thoughtful discussion of practical defensive rational thought. Certainly personal experience is valid & welcome addition to that knowledge. |
Dick_stilton
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 05:42 am: |
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'Try a walking stick' Legal to carry everywhere (Even aircraft) and good at keeping aggressive folks at arms (and sticks) length. Go for one made of heavy tropical wood if possible and preferably with a crook or handle.
There was a WW2 manual called 'Stick easy' that taught how to use one effectively or The head honcho at Valhalla gun club in Colorado runs a course. |
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