| Author | Message | ||
     Xb9 |
Chevycummins, +1 good description on how it is regulated. I didn't have time this morning to spell it all out. (Message edited by xb9 on December 12, 2008) | ||
| Teach |
Thanks Sly, XB9, Chevy and Anon!! | ||
| Clarkjw |
ANONY, HELP US OUT. As an 08 owner I'm will to pay but would like a organized '09 conversion process. Also, it seems like '09 headers aren't needed according to C4. That'd save us all $$$. | ||
| Velocity |
I have been working on a deal to move and plug the old bungs, turn new. I am almost done. The thread is m18x1.5, taps and dies are available. I have made plugs for the old location on our cnc lathe. I will post pics shortly. As of now I am keeping both locations just in case. One could just plug and weld. Scott | ||
| Chevycummins |
I guess there are a couple of things that I would want to know to determine if it would really be worth the money to change all these parts. MPG, stock with third flash vs modified 08 Dyno stock vs modified 08 driving impression, does it run any smoother, accelerate any faster, better throttle response, is it smoother at idle or at cruise? does it produce less heat from the engine or exhaust? is the top speed any different? I just feel that for the average person the cost of these modifications may be too high for the type of improvement that you may gain if any. C4bird, please let us know if it really seems worth spending the money to do the modifications. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Velocity, You can buy the bungs and plugs at ANY high performance/race auto mail order vendor for cheap...even in 304ss. No need to make them. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Thanks Xb9 and Chevy for the "regulator" corrections! Sometimes, the excitement gets the best of me...but I'm calm now...  ...and just had a winston! Oopps...don't take that as advertising!  After looking back at all the wideband feedback, since way back in March...FROM BOTH LOCATIONS. Relocating the o2's will not have anything to do/OVERALL, with the resolution of feedback. Period. The only possible benefit I can find would be increased life but given the better, overall conditions that we are under now (given the latest 08 flash and now the 09 examples...lower egt's, ect, ect...), there IS reason to believe the C4bird's example was spec'd out by the same engineer's that would love to back this post up! Don't count on that one. We've already gotten as much as I believe we are going to get in the short term. The rest is up to us. Step up with the cost of injectors and a reflash to 09 R or CR spec... AND THAT IS also the solution to an R swap to CR gearing! A two for one deal! I call this, Done...at least on my end!  ...Get Your Angle w/The Dangle!...Happy Dance...13' Injectors...whoop, whoop!  (guess you gotta be here to witness the dance and lingo!)... (Message edited by slypiranna on December 12, 2008) | ||
| C4bird |
I'll keep everyone posted when I can. Bike is definately different. ECM probably hasn't had enough time to learn, and I am still in the break-in period so can't tell how the top end feels just yet. They have the bike again for a couple more items that need fixed (unrelated to the new motor). May be a little while till I can get seat time, snowing now and more forcasted for the weekend/next week... Sly, So if I am reading that correctly, I should be good to go with the 08 header? Nothing to worry about? | ||
| Slypiranna |
Thats right C4bird. No worries...IMO. Its very difficult to argue with all the data. If anyone really considers the relocated o2's mandatory, its very simple to weld in bungs and a lot cheaper than new primaries. When I added wideband bungs into my tubes, it took about three hours. Removing the headers is NOT absolutely required unless you are trying to hide them.  At least three (documented) individual examples have been map/altered/tested/tuned, using both o2 locations for feedback samples (widebands) to tune each cylinder by. Recently comparing them shows no major difference to warrant a change for this reason alone. Understanding all this, I have to disagree, somewhat, with Anony's most recent post...but only in regard to the headers. Thanks again C4bird!  Without your example and involvement in sharing, the rest of us might still be in the dark on this thread's subject! Thanks also to the very long and hard work done by Xb9, Easyrider and EcmSpy! Without their efforts, we might not have the means of actually comparing the ecu data and sharing additional developments to support credible comparisons. mm | ||
| C4bird |
No problem Just glad I could help, although it would have been nice to find all of it out without not having a bike for 3 months... Ce'st la vie | ||
| Slypiranna |
So who has ordered their 09 injectors and/or headers and found out how much their dealer is going to charge for the download? | ||
| Ponti1 |
I'm wondering what everyone thinks dealer reactions will be...Maybe this is a totally legitimate thing and nobody will even blink at the request, but I just don't know because I haven't yet asked. To find out, I will call the head tech at my dealership tomorrow and put out my feelers. Given the nature of the request: Hello. I would like you to install these '09 injectors and flash my '08 ECM with '09 programming. I wonder how many dealers will be willing to do this? Can the dealership even get the '09 flash for an '08 VIN? I'm wondering if it's something that dealers will likely refuse to do based on liability? Should this change be made, is the expectation that the warranty will still be honored? If the dealer calls BMC to see if the request is okay, what would their response be? | ||
| Slypiranna |
Ponti1, Its already been done!  Read the whole thread ...mm | ||
| Ponti1 |
Yes, I had read the thread and know it's been done. I guess I figure that you worked with some particular dealer that was either extra knowledgeable about the '08-'09 differences, or just extra accommodating. I'm just thinking the same response might not be had from all dealers. Also, I believe I have read in the past that the flash is received by entering the bike's VIN. I could be wrong, but if that's true I'm curious what process to follow for them to get you the '09 flash? These first two questions are prepping me to "guide" my service department down the right path if they show resistance. Same with the question about what BMC will say, since I know they will call (little doubt in my mind). I want to help them see the light! Lastly, unless I missed it, I didn't see where the warranty question was addressed. That could be a deciding factor for some. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Excellent points Ponti1! Prepping is proper, after all! Please let us know what you come up with! I know who I'm calling and it ain't local. That is the only problem with all this, we have to outsource sometimes...but at least there are dealers that welcome us crazy tuners and anal owners! p.s...If done by a dealer under the same protocol that we've all witnessed herein/the factory warranty should NOT be affected at all. In fact and I am a betting man, they might just welcome this upgrade as an overall improvement to the remaining warranty on the 08's left. mm (Message edited by slypiranna on December 17, 2008) | ||
| Ponti1 |
To not let this thread die, I'll provide a non-productive update.  Called the dealer today, but the head tech was out of office. He'll be back tomorrow, so I'll try again then and report their receptiveness to "trading up". Stay tuned... | ||
| Bpt |
The way DTII works is by VIN. It reads the VIN from the ECM. It will not allow you to see the 2009 calibrations if you have a 2008 bike hooked up. You may get around it by buying a blank ECM and start from scratch. I am not sure if this would work. Probably best to wait for ECMSPY to work. | ||
| Eweaver |
For what its worth, a Buell engineer told me that the reason they moved the O2 sensors was because they discovered they would get different readings from the two ports on the same head. So, they moved the sensor down past the Y in order to get a more accurate/consistent reading. Coulda been baloney, but he seemed pretty informed and sincere. | ||
| Xb9 |
My best guess is the ecm will not be able to be reprogrammed '08 to '09 with DTII. It most likely can be done but will need to be sent to East Troy to have it done. Just speculating. | ||
| Chevycummins |
Question for C4bird, your bike had the 09 engine put in it but were the old injectors swapped from the 08 to the new 09 engine? I just didn't know if the engine came with the injectors or if your assuming that it did. The cost thing would make me think that the throttle body, manifolds and injectors would not come with a new engine. | ||
| C4bird |
I was told by the service tech it came with new injectors and was a plugin swap (already had the sensors in in). I can double check when I get it back, so long as someone can tell me how to tell if they are 08/09. To back this up, I was also told my ecm has the 09 calibration. If anyone has any way to confirm this I will do my best to check this out as well. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Anony's post also backed up the swap as doable. I thought Anony was the last word on BadWeb or am I being too trusting again? | ||
| Ponti1 |
Another update from my dealer discussion: I explained the desire for an '09 injector swap and subsequent '09 flash. He was actually very receptive to the idea, but is going to call BMC (told ya) to confirm the proper way to spoof the VIN factor. He'll be calling me back in the next day or three. He's also going to try to get more info on the mysterious "4Z" flash... | ||
| Zac4mac |
C4 - At least check the last screen in Diag Mode. If you have an 09 IC, you should see something like: SW 6.1 CAL 1.0 The decimals are very small on the screen. Z | ||
| Bpt |
You can install the 09 injectors but the injector settings may be different between 08 and 09. This is a setting within the calibration calculations. You may have the latest download for your 08, but it is not an 09 calibration. 2 totally different animals. When you install 09 injectors, that setting must be changed in the ECM to adjust the calculations performed while the bike is running or the wrong amount of fuel will be sprayed. You cannot just load a 09 calibration in an 08 bike. The ECM is VIN locked and won't allow it (all to make EPA happy). Having a tunable ECM is the real way to make all the adjustments needed, hence ECMSPY. | ||
| C4bird |
Thanks Zac, when I get the bike back again I'll check it Bpt, My bike had a toasted motor, got replaced with an 09 with 09 injectors (need to for sure verify) under warranty and got an 09 cal to work with them. Buell techs worked with my local dealer to get it all done.  | ||
| Bpt |
I have seen "special" things done to take care of customer issues. No matter what anyone says the Motor Co. and BMC are very proactive in resolving concerns. Much more than our 4 wheel friends. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Come on...this has nothing to do with special favors crap. This is not a competition or offense/defense. We should all here...be reminded that WE ALL are on the same team effort? Be it good or bad and even ugly, we can get through another step in the right direction! (?) clusion of all, inclusive. Please, may we loose the bias? Perhaps a BadWeb SPONSERED dealer might like to offer up a post or direction? HINT, HINT! (Message edited by slypiranna on December 19, 2008) | ||
| Chevycummins |
Anybody try the 09 injectors yet without the 09 flash? I'm interested to see what happens. I've been thinking about it but have not tried it yet. | ||
| Ponti1 |
I received word back from my dealer on this subject. His word from calling BMC is that you "cannot" just change injectors and flash with '09 ECU data. He told me he personally believes it to be possible, but that the person he spoke to at Buell said '09 headers would be required to move the O2s farther away. Also, he was told that it is not advisable to write '09 data to an '08 ECM, though he was not as far as I know given a detailed reason why this is a bad idea. I think if I continue to push for this, he will support me in making the change. However, I think I'll just hang out until spring and see if some of you other fine folks make the conversion. Having reference examples of folks doing this successfully will go a long way in convincing... |
