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Court
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 01:45 pm: | 
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The next bailout you'll be seeing, I'm going out on a limb her, is SIPC after they get found neglignet in their oversight and end up making Banard's investors whole. Both a good and bad time to be married to a Hedge Fund CFO of character who said "this is not right, I'm outta here".
SIPC, by the way, will make Enron look like kid's play. Even the folks in London are, as I type this, on the way to NYC to get aboard the gravy train. How would you like to have been one of the auditors who've signed of on ol' Berns books on behalf of SIPC, who's ONLY role was to protect investors from fraud.
I have a heart for both sides of the auto industry. I'm not sure we can let them go, but we darn sure can't let them go on.
The economy is changing and I hope we follow an Erie, PA model not the Detroit model. There are tons of wonderful opportunites before us but we have to know who we are, what we do well and how we do it. I'm not sure it's a great time to play one on one with the Chinese or Japanese in terms of manufacturing. There are some things we do better than anyone in the world . . . .
We'll see. . . |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 02:19 pm: |
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Yes, but there is no way I will ever post it here. You can believe me or not.
I'm forced to take this as you have no evidence that foreign manufacturers willingly pay suppliers more than the Big 3.
Heres My take,
Bill Gates, founded Microsoft, stayed up nights, was away from home, and dealt with the issues good and bad I believe that he is entitled to what ever he can get from the co. He built the business,
what is it that the CEO at GM or Ford or Chrysler does for the orginization that is worth that kind of money? is he tallented like a pro athlete, or musician? [ Erik Buell ] what is it
There are some major holes in your logic here.
For starters, you make it seem like only the original founder of the company who serves as a CEO is worth big bucks. So when Bill Gates dies, and he replaced and the company continues to be as successful as they are today, that new CEO isn't worth the same paycheck?
Also, if you think the CEOs of any of the Big 3 don't spend LOADS of time away from home, dealing with good and bad issues, and then some, you're sorely mistaken.
These people have talent, and it exists even if it's something you refuse to see or appreciate. What does Erik Buell's musicianship have to do with anything? He's an officer of a motorcycle company. That would be like giving the CEO of Dell Computers a bonus because he can throw a curveball. A CEO of a major, international, VERY public company does not have a life of butterflies and rainbows.
Doesn't anybody seem to think that if any schmuck with half a brain and a Business Administration degree from a community college could run a $160 BILLION international company for $60k/year, they would?
The last thing I want to do is claim I'm any different than this, but just because you THINK you have all the asnwers doesn't mean it's true. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 02:42 pm: |
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could run a $160 BILLION international company
On a related note, if you were competent to run a $160 Billion company, would you accept the position as CEO of GM?
I think that's ultimately the biggest challenge facing the auto companies. Anyone who truly has the talent to save them, has the capacity to make a hell of a lot more money doing something other than saving them. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 02:46 pm: |
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Bill Gates did indeed found, trademark, and register MicroSoft. He borrowed the money from his mom to buy an existing software company that had already essentially invented windows (except they called it shelling)
I dont see him stepping to buy any of these failing industries, he might know something. (side note, Microsoft and Ford have combined with their new SYNC line up; one more reason I will never buy a new Ford; last thing I need is the Blue Screen of Death when I am trying to start the car)
And finally, if they get bought out, bailed out by the government, with tax payer money... Nationalize them, put them on the GS tiered pay schedule and redistribute the saved money back to the debt ridden populace.
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" Theres a Revolution brewing. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 03:10 pm: |
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I'm going to quote Lee Iacocca, from his recent book, just like I did during the Presidential campaign . . .
"where is the outrage and where have all the leaders gone?"
I know several folks who are in the $50M/yr salary range and they would not touch a job with any automaker. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 03:23 pm: |
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"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs"
The Messiah will save us.
On a related note, if you were competent to run a $160 Billion company, would you accept the position as CEO of GM?
Touché |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 03:45 pm: |
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Just out of curiosity . . . what would you say is a reasonable salary for a guy running a company doing about $11B a year and banging out a steady 6% return?
Any ideas? |
Oldog
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 05:20 pm: |
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For starters, you make it seem like only the original founder of the company who serves as a CEO is worth big bucks. So when Bill Gates dies, and he replaced and the company continues to be as successful as they are today, that new CEO isn't worth the same paycheck?
My Opinion NO, Gates and Allen did the dirty work, some tallented suit takes over and makes it grow, good, pay commencerate with achievement.
sorry my abbriviated comment using Erik Buell,
was not in reference to music but his passion for excelent cycles, and his role at BMC,
As far as Work and effort, do not try to poor me for the CEO's of the big three flying charter and having to "be away all of the time" I bet Gates and Buell both flew coach / drove all night to an event / meeting, worked all night, etc..
not the same thing,
I worked in a minor "corperate america" company, in a gone all the time job.
The BS that goes on would amaze you the auto makers are just bigger like I said before My late friend Gene shared a lot of storries of his job with me I have at least an idea,
I site Lee Iacocca when chrysler hit the wall last time I was in my 20s then Im in my 50's now, 1 dollar a year he and some hand picked assistants sorted it out, they got a loan then.
its in the books, was he worth that kind of money more so than the current crop of CEOs' ,
his credits include
the Mustang, the Minivan, The K-car,
I am not saying that he did all of these but he was involved, He understands how to reach folks in a positive way. and the ins and outs of the car business from the ground up the title of his first book escapes me a good read. He did the work
and paid the dues, lotsa late nights and hard work, he earned it. }
CEOs Jumbo pay for title NO @#$$% NO! |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 06:22 pm: |
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>>>>I bet Gates and Buell both flew coach / drove all night to an event / meeting, worked all night, etc..
not the same thing,
I can't speak for Gates but I can tell you that, to date, few have any appreciation for some of the adversity that Erik Buell dove headlong into to follow his dream.
He, and I'd be willing to be Gates is the same deal, if you quit paying him today would be at work doing the same thing tomorrow morning.
If you took it all away. . . quoting the guy who once asked Henry Ford "you're a wealthy man, what would you do if someone took all your wealth away?" . . to which he replied . . ."I come back bigger and better. Now I know how and HOW was the the hard part".
Wealth, and I've often cited my Grandfather, is seldom the driver behind fascinating success stories.
I long told my staff if you see only the money you'll likely be blinded to the real issues. |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 06:34 pm: |
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Bill Gates has already stepped down from Microsoft. He's busy running his charitable foundation. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 06:17 am: |
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Touché
I didn't mean it to be. I think it's one of the overlooked issues in this debate.
If you've got talent, and you want to make some money with your career, or want to make a difference in the world, you've got lots of options. Pharmaceuticals, computers, petroleum, and medical industries would be much better choices than working for the big 3. I think that is the biggest problem facing them. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 06:23 am: |
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So when Bill Gates dies, and he replaced and the company continues to be as successful as they are today, that new CEO isn't worth the same paycheck?
I have no idea what Bill Gates makes as a salary. But his salary isn't why he is rich. He is rich because he started the company and took it public. Through that process, he got billions of dollars worth of Microsoft stock. His successor gets the salary, but much less stock. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 06:40 am: |
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quote:I'm forced to take this as you have no evidence that foreign manufacturers willingly pay suppliers more than the Big 3.
You're not "forced" to do any such thing. You've chosen not to beleive me, or others who have posted similar statements, since it doesn't support your point of view.
Below is an article that describes a bit about the typical differences in relationships between car companies & suppliers, but you will be hard pressed to find anyone who will give you the "hard data" you request, as that would generally require a breach of professional confidentiality.
http://edgeperspectives.typepad.com/edge_perspecti ves/2006/01/detroit_the_pre.html |
Oldog
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 07:52 am: |
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I can't speak for Gates but I can tell you that, to date, few have any appreciation for some of the adversity that Erik Buell dove headlong into to follow his dream.
I figured from what I know about both of these men that it was the case,
My current employer is much the same,
There is a story about him, after a week with the total sum of about 2 hours of sleep, he finaly fell asleep under a truck he was working on, the crew arrives knowing that he again worked all night, they left him alone they were not quite sure if he was dead or just asleep,
I personaly have worked 125hrs in one week with him, the work and sacrifice that he has done to build his business, is typical of those who dare to dream big.
BTW like me he shakes his head and wonders why a bank CEO is worth 20mil in cash and stock
what is it that they do that commands that kind of money? |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 09:57 am: |
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I didn't mean it to be. I think it's one of the overlooked issues in this debate.
If you've got talent, and you want to make some money with your career, or want to make a difference in the world, you've got lots of options. Pharmaceuticals, computers, petroleum, and medical industries would be much better choices than working for the big 3. I think that is the biggest problem facing them.
Of course, what comes to mind now is:
"If you were capable of running a $160B business, would you want to work for the Big 3?"
Answer: For the right pay check.
Just out of curiosity . . . what would you say is a reasonable salary for a guy running a company doing about $11B a year and banging out a steady 6% return?
That's a $660,000,000 return... I would say he's worth a hell of a lot. |
Bill0351
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 11:18 am: |
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"During the past 12 months, overall total compensation of the highest-paid executives increased 20.5 percent while revenues increased 2.8 percent, the study found. As of February 2008, the average top executive received overall total compensation of $18,813,697, according to the study. In comparison, the median pay for workers rose only 3.5 percent to $36,140 in 2007, from $34,892 the previous year, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics*."
*Usual Weekly Earnings of Wage and Salary Workers: Fourth Quarter 2007, Bureau of Labor Statistics release Jan. 17, 2008. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:49 pm: |
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some very disturbing propaganda coming out of Yahoo and MSN this week;
Apparently 150K/year for a family of four is well off. We should all feel better now, the bar has been lowered. |
Mr_grumpy
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 12:52 pm: |
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As Benjamin Disraeli (one of Great Britain's greatest Prime Ministers) said;
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.
You can argue numbers all day long, put the spin that suits you on it, it doesn't change a thing.
The american automobile industry is in trouble.
This is partly because they've taken their eye off the ball, & not prepared for their customers finally waking up to the fact that they can buy a superior product imported.
Europeans gaped in disbelief when the bailout scheme was blocked. Nobody here can understand how the US government can authorize hundreds of billions for the banks, but a minority of public representatives for political reasons can refuse a much smaller amount for one of your nations primary industries, not to mention all the subsidiary supplier & transport companies who'll go titsup along with the big 3.
Incidentally the refusal wiped around 5% off the world stock markets at a stroke!
The Treasury Department's statement that they'd help out went some way to redressing the balance but not all of it.
I can tell you straight, Republican is a dirty word in Europe these days.
I'd reckon 14 bil was cheap compared to the alternative.
I've got no axe to grind politically here so don't jump down my throat about this, I'm just trying to inform you how others perceive the situation. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 01:07 pm: |
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some very disturbing propaganda coming out of Yahoo and MSN this week;
Apparently 150K/year for a family of four is well off. We should all feel better now, the bar has been lowered.
That's quite a bit more than my household, and I'm fairly certain I could afford to raise two kids with or without the extra cash. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 01:22 pm: |
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Apparently 150K/year for a family of four is well off.
That's a hansom sum in Washington, NC, and a poverty wage in San Jose, CA. |
Newbuellertoo
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 12:12 am: |
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Friday afternoon is my last shift in the Auto Biz. It's been an interesting ride and I'm surer than ever that I am making the right move by leaving. There have been some very interesting viewpoints on this thread and the story isn't over yet. "W" might make a move soon so we will see what happens.
Today I signed an offer and for better or worse I am heading out of Automotive and moving into Aerospace. Maybe I'm just jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire by staying in Manufacturing, but what the hell, it's all I've ever done.
(Message edited by newbuellertoo on December 19, 2008) |
Froggy
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 12:18 am: |
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Good luck to you Newbuellertoo. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 09:10 am: |
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I'm watching Bush on the tube this very moment. . . . Think there will be an American auto industry 12 months from now?
They've got 90 days to get in or get out . . . either restructure in 90 days or repay the federal loans.
Car companies are having the toughest times in their history. We got 3 calls and e-mails from dealer yesterday wanting to sell now.
We're in for a ROUGH ride. |
Froggy
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 11:23 am: |
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12 months? I hope so, I want my Pontiac Pickup when it comes out next fall.
Funny thing about the 90 day deadline, it calls for things like reducing exec pay and getting rid of the jets. GM already did both. |
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