| Author | Message | ||
     Cityxslicker |
Wait they want 14BILLION for a month and 6 days, to tide them over until the President is in office.... Sumnabiatch, thats a hell of an allowance to keep the lights on for a MONTH. Let them eat cake. I miss Studebaker way more than ANY current Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Cadillac or Chevy. (and theres a bit of model redundancy for ya there; really do you NEED 5 iterations of the same shoebox?) | ||
| Benm2 |
Did that already. Engineers need factories too. | ||
| Xl1200r |
why shouldn't a factory worker make enough money to live in a nice neghborhood and raise a family? I think they absolutely should make enough to live in a nice area and raise a family. I think everyone should (let's not get on the "happiness and a job aren't constitutional rights" thing). But the fact is my single-parent mother did it raising two boys on only her income and managed to build a new house, drive brand new (american-made) cars AND finish college in the process, all on a little more than HALF of what a UAW worker makes. Let me put it in this light: Given the $55/hour figure, the average UAW worker earns more than the combined salaries of two 4-year highly-accedited college-educated graduates who have some experience and have been in the workforce for a couple years. Subtract the fact that a UAW worker likely doesn't have $70,000 in student loans, and the gap is even wider. Look, I'm not trying to advocate that we pay our factory workers peanuts - they do important jobs and deserve to compensated fairly for them. But I've seen enough "How It's Made" episodes to know that these aren't $100k /year jobs. Anyways, this is about the Auto companies and not the workers - If the industry wasn't about to get flushed out of existance, I would have no issues the workers wages. It's all really a moot point anyways with the new UAW contract, which I think cuts the new hire hourly rate by nearly half. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
I think that $55 per hour on the check figure is bullshit. And even if it isn't, so what. Jealous are we? Why do the workers have to take the hit, yet upper management can keep on making what they make? THEY are overpaid as far as I'm concerned. I have read so many posts on this forum from people complaining about their BUELL not running right, fit and finish suck...God the list goes on and on. And the same people that tell them to "deal with it" and "that's what the bike is" jump all over the American Car Industry and call them a piece of shit. Isn't the Buell in the same boat when it gives the owner grief? Out of ALL the cars and truck I have owned, the biggest piece of shit was a Toyota Camary. I have a Dodge Dakota and a Dodge Durango with the Hemi and never have had an issue with either. The Durango gets about 13 MPG city and about 22 MPG on the highway. That's good enough for me. I still can't believe people are stupid enough to think letting the industry fail is a good thing. We should have just let Wall Street fail instead of giving....now listen really good here..GIVING them $700,000,000,000 with no strings attached. Boy, that's really working out well for us, isn't it? This Country is bound and determined to fail because rather than being a MANUFACTURING economy, we have decided that a SERVICE industry is good enough. Guess what? It isn't!! You mow my lawn, I wash your car. How the hell is that a money maker? All that is is a money exchange. This Country needs to get back to manufacturing. It will not and can not survive as is, and some here seem perfectly content on that happening. Let them fail. Where is the logic in that? Please, someone explain that to me. The Senators from the states with the overseas car makers would be more than happy to see the big 3 fail and the Union broke. That's the only reason they voted no. They could not care less about the American Workers. The failure brings more business to the foreign business. Oh, that's a good thing, no? NO!! Where the hell do you think the profits go? Makes Japan, Korea, Germany more money, helps their economy, but does nothing to help ours. America First my ass. Again, be careful of what you wish for.... | ||
| Swordsman |
Sprink definitely nailed it with the overpayed CEOs. Management mentality seems to be totally self-serving nowadays. Grab a few million any way they can, then leave the company to burn in their wake. Knock CEO payscales down by 50% and ditch the ridiculously astronomical severance packages, and you might actually get some management that gives a rat's ass about the company's well being. However, "failing" doesn't mean ceasing to exist. First step is bankruptcy, which will allow the companies better leverage against the equally greedy union leaders, possibly enough to reincorporate some common sense into the contracts. It's all dirty rotten politics.  ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on December 12, 2008) | ||
| Court |
I'm curious . . . how do you feel about a baseball player who is paid $75,000,000 for 5 years. I'm not defending exorbitant pay but I find there is a wide range in what folks consider exorbitant. How would you feel about an executive who makes say $2.4M a year, a mere fraction of a ballplayer or CEO of an auto company. I'm trying to get a sense of where the "line" is. In my experience, folks who make $40K seem to thing folks who make $80K are overpaid, folks who make $80K think the group at $150K are overpaid . . . I confess as I read that $55/hr rate that I had this vision of someone offering a NYC Union Electrician a job at $55 an hour . . . Do you think person who works at a Nuke Plant like Indian Point, as a Project Manager (with a lot of OT) and brings home $435,000 is overpaid? My point is that folks tend to focus way too much energy on the salaries of top execs. I'm not for a single moment endorsing them and will see if my hypothesis bears merit in the coming year as they take home their $1/yr . . think that will solve this? | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Communism went bankrupt... who says capitalism cant? | ||
| Swordsman |
LOL, pro athletes are certainly the most overpayed people on the planet. I dunno, I just can't imagine any job on the planet that could actually be worthy of more than 1 or 2 million dollars a year. I mean, seriously, WHAT do you do with THAT much money? I'd have to get seriously creative to even think of ways to throw it away, other than charities. After a few mil, it seems like it's just hoarding for the sake of hoarding. But that's just me, down here in the sub-$100k range. Maybe if I was more elite it would all make sense! ~SM | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Here is what you do with millions of dollars  | ||
| Slaughter |
Quick thoughts during our break today (we're out house-hunting) Court - precisely - the highly overpaid athlete or any OTHER celebrity seems to be able to command HUGE salaries. A-Rod got what, a quarter BILLION dollar 9-year contract? That caused me to re-think things that I had previously though as expensive in new terms: the "BALLPLAYER UNIT."
So 1 of the F22 fighters is less than 1.5 ballplayer units in cost. I don't participate in any way in pro ball sports as a spectator or consumer so it has no effect on me and like any other form of entertainment, they're welcome to charge as much as traffic will bear. I don't own a TV so it really doesn't affect me. What I do with my money and spare time is so far removed from society at large that all too often, my "give-a-shit-meter" is far from being pegged. I do invest, I do participate in the economy at large - so the unintended consequences of a poorly-conceived panic bail-out of the finance system or the auto sector have me very afraid. It is poorly-though-out planning by others "for my benefit" that has me scared... whether those others are politicians or whether they are financial/corporate executives. Whether pro ball or the entertainment industry survives in its current form - doesn't really matter. This is just going to be interesting. Sunny and I are "vultures" and are out shopping for houses. We've been chastised at work for "throwing our money away" by renting when the real estate market was "getting away from us" - HA HA HA. No sympathy from this quarter. We own our vehicles, don't owe a nickel on anything... yeah, it meant that when I wadded up the racebike, it took more than a year to get it race-ready since I have refused to hit the VISA. I guess I am interested in the economy as a spectator sport since I've got other things to do with my time. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
my give a damn is busted. The Edsel died for a reason. | ||
| Xbpete |
I would not fault the manager at Indian Point or the incredible salaries of pro-athletes nor people in the entertainment industry for their good fortune, there is no "you made enough law" on the books. But, if the industry should go into a decline, I would like to think that the golden parachute would turn into a golden shower for the movers and shakers in whatever venue that allows inflated white collar compensation to occur in times of decline and possible loss of that business. Be it baseball, television, AIG, building, housing or the auto industry. It seems Honda has the right idea in cutting their presence in Formula 1 as a true cost saver, be damned the image of being a quitter against Ferrari or Mercedes Again, broad base corrections must be made from the top downward in most industries if they are to survive these trying times. One would hope that sacrifices will be made from all involved and no one sector of any business would be forced to bear the brunt of the economic redistribution needed for the business to survive and jobs to be saved. | ||
| Brumbear |
I know the answers and for $5.00 I'll tell ya 1 at a time. Seriuosly we are in a bit of a fickle here and if we don't knuckle down as a NATION in the immortal words of some jersey sherriff Quint we are gonna need a bigger boat | ||
| Swampy |
Where is the line? I don't know, the football coach for MSU is paid 1 million a year.....for college football! Supposedly MSU is a state university, one that you vote for MSU board members and such to control the direction the school is going. Why are we paying a college football coach 1 million dollars a year? I would look at that and hold all the MSU board members under arrest for mis-appropriating state funds. They are always underfunded, I kind of know why. I also understand that because of the "School Spirit" alumni pay big bucks to come to football games, and to make donations and if it wasn't for the coach the alumni wouldn't be making donations to the school. I also know that in "State Government" if you didn't go to MSU you aren't working for the state. So if you ask me whats too much....I Don't Know. | ||
| Court |
>>>>pro athletes are certainly the most overpaid people on the planet. What if I told you many of them are underpaid? I have . . . from 1971 at Kansas State University, my classic McConnell Economics book that presented the actuarial case (you know those salaries, big through they may be, are carefully and methodically calculated, they are NOT, by any means, simply pulled out of the air) for Lew Alcindor. | ||
| Doz |
Meanwhile, in the rest of the world..fiat is expected to go under and many other foreign manufacturers are having the same problem. So it's not just an American problem. So much for that "world economy" crap. I say rebuild manufacturing here and close the friggin borders already. Like a bumped sticker I saw years ago "if your not outraged, then your not paying attention" I got it then..do you get it now? | ||
| Just_ziptab |
Actually.......on the bottom line,we don't need new cars and trucks for the most part. Cheaper to restore a wore out one. If I spent half of what it costs for a new truck on my 98 S-10...........it would be perfect in every manner. Right now, with 170K on it. I couldn't spend a monthly payment of a new truck on my old truck for 5 years with out going to full customizing shit. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
I have a 1984 Ford Ranger, paid 800 dollars for it. Its all the four wheel transpo I need. Detroit is getting none of my transportation dollar. Now if a choice classic pops up now or then, I have the cash from NOT buying new and overpriced to nab it. Theres a 49 Mercury that keeps coming down in price in my neighborhood..... | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Communism went bankrupt... who says capitalism cant? Exactly. Every major empire throughout history has run it's course and died. We are a pretty young "empire". Who's to say it won't fail? Pro Sports players overpaid? God yes. Do you think person who works at a Nuke Plant like Indian Point, as a Project Manager (with a lot of OT) and brings home $435,000 is overpaid? No. They are providing a very important thing. POWER. Pro sports is entertainment only and serves no valid use. That is why I know longer watch it. Men getting paid millions to play a kids game. Now THAT's overpaid!! | ||
| Zac4mac |
I'm with ya there CityX. I bought a rough Jeep Cherokee(87) for 600 bucks, 7 or 8 years ago. It's a little noisy, so I put an $800 stereo in it. Best bang fo buck of any vehicle I've ever owned. I'll probably drive it to work today, snow coming in again... Zack | ||
| Court |
Now WHY . . . would they do that? I think you can see that many folks here are missing something or do you truly believe that Cashman (fitting name, eh?) is just really generous folks? Again . . . my reason is not to taunt but to evoke thought. It's quite obvious we are missing the point . . I'd suggest with the car companies AND the Yankees. Folks act rationally. | ||
| Benm2 |
The car company CEO's are complaining that its the labor force that is causing their lack of competetiveness with the Japanese. THEY demamded pay parity at the shop floor level, while Honda & Toyota have undercut them all the way to the penthouse office. They have demonstrated that a successful car company can be run with less than $1M executive salaries. The GM, Ford, and Chrysler CEO's have demonstrated that with executive salaries that are higher by a factor of ten, that they can't. I'm not guessing what they're worth, I'm pointing out that the competition that is beating them is beating them with less. Considering the growth of Toyota worldwide, which executive rank is doing better? Toyota or GM? In addition (as has been pointed out elsewhere) the "Big Three" are most likely to try to squeeze every last dime from their suppliers. When that happens, quality suffers. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, they all demand quality first from their suppliers, and will pay more than their American counterparts. They have built their own tanker, and steered it happily into the rocks. | ||
| Oldog |
As I see and hear the "news" about the auto Bailout, Is it just me? the banks Fanny mae Freddi mac bought or bailed, not much in the way of noise from the hill, We wont go into the list of folks that reportedly got payola...... the big three are being drug through a knot hole backwards, I agree that things need to change to be sure. some tough questions should be asked of our elected officials, who seem to be playing CTA with the automakers, On over paid, what does the CEO of GM / FORD / Chrysler do that commands so much. the athlete has a tallent that not all have [ insert musician ] his or her working life is likely to be shorter than most others compress a 30 year career into 10 years, What does a CEO that commands 20 million per year ( Wachovia's did a couple of years ago ) do to earn that much money? Planner / superintendant at a nuclear construction site. 400 thou per year, Yes I think so, his or her responcibilities, / discisions have far reaching inplications, miscalculations, and errors could be costly and effect lives of those in the area for decades | ||
| Hootowl |
"I don't participate in any way in pro ball sports as a spectator or consumer so it has no effect on me and like any other form of entertainment, they're welcome to charge as much as traffic will bear." That's almost true. Who paid for the fancy new stadium they play in? | ||
| Xl1200r |
In addition (as has been pointed out elsewhere) the "Big Three" are most likely to try to squeeze every last dime from their suppliers. When that happens, quality suffers. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, Nissan, they all demand quality first from their suppliers, and will pay more than their American counterparts. Do you have any hard evidence to prove this? What does a CEO that commands 20 million per year ( Wachovia's did a couple of years ago ) do to earn that much money? So let's get this straight - When we look at a company like GM, we claim the CEO is way overpaid, but when that company fails, the CEO is forst finger you point? Pick a side and stay there. These CEOs are expected to do exactly what they are doing - being the target for blame for the fall of an industry, working to correct those fixes, being at the mercy of the media and presenting plans to Congress just get a little help. Do they make more they *need*? Probably. Are they overpaid? Having never been in their shoes, I can't answer that, but my guess is being on-call 24 hours a day, every day, and dealing with what they deal with is worth a little more than minimum wage. pro athletes are certainly the most overpaid people on the planet. Let's not forget that pro athletes are paid to MAKE money. The Yankess can pay whoever it is they pay as much as they pay them because the ticket buyer, YES network subscriber and swag shopper funds it. If I knew that my being on a major sports team would be directly resposible for $10 million a year in added revenue, then I would say I was worth about $9 million. | ||
| Court |
>>>Let's not forget that pro athletes are paid to MAKE money. My point exactly. If I am doing $80M in revenue and can add $20M by hiring Blake Rudy away . . . It becomes a business decision, but trust me . . the Yankees are hiring these players to MAKE money and it's not an arbitrary decision. You can do your own searching but there are some VERY specific formulas for calculating what a player will add to a teams bottom line. In a similar, perhaps less precise fashion, CEO are compensated not so much for work output but for what they bring to the team. . . companies, let's say Avis when they were in the tank and brought Robert Townsend in, pay what the market will bear and usually get good value. I missed the details this morning but am eager to hear the details of the news teaser I heard . . . "Dems add loophole excluding executive salary from auto bailout". . . anyone confirm or add detail? I think if they added a loophole that allowed execs to make $50M while asking the UAW (they are not going to do it and that's what'll doom this thing anyway) to reduce wages it'll sure bring on some angry taxpayers. I keep wondering . . . after WE (it was your money and my money) just gave banks $350,000,000,000 to make loans with that the automakers, needly but a paltry $17,000,000,000, don't go to their bank and complete a loan application? HINT: They have no intent or capacity to pay this back and the govt is the only group, lacking any responsibility or accountability, dumb enough to take the bet. | ||
| Slaughter |
That's almost true. Who paid for the fancy new stadium they play in? Getting consumers (Miller beer drinkers, Chase bank account holders, Staples Customers to name a few) - isn't nearly as bad as FORCING the taxpayers to pay for it. Scamming the TAXPAYERS into paying for a stadium is OBSCENE. | ||
| Spiderman |
Did that already. Engineers need factories too. Guess what... There are other companies other than automotive  | ||
| Oldog |
Do you have any hard evidence to prove this? Sadly My late friend Gene who worked for GM procurement, indicated that it was done, }What does a CEO that commands 20 million per year ( Wachovia's did a couple of years ago ) do to earn that much money? }So let's get this straight - When we look at a company like GM, we claim the CEO is way overpaid, but when that company fails, the CEO is forst finger you point? Pick a side and stay there. ????? Heres My take, Bill Gates, founded Microsoft, stayed up nights, was away from home, and dealt with the issues good and bad I believe that he is entitled to what ever he can get from the co. He built the business, what is it that the CEO at GM or Ford or Chrysler does for the orginization that is worth that kind of money? is he tallented like a pro athlete, or musician? [ Erik Buell ] what is it My other thought again is that there is a general lack of accountablility, IN some businesses [ ENRON ][ Wachovia Bank, Citi Bank, etc..... ] and in general in government at the upper levels, They will provide the bail out most likely by Inauguration(sp) day "I fixed it" My 02 is washington has some blame in all of this mess, un like say FORD washington produces nothing and wastes a great deal. } | ||
| Benm2 |
Yes, but there is no way I will ever post it here. You can believe me or not. Spidey, I think you missed something, from one of Court's posts:
Manufacturing in the US has been declining. The last TWO factories I worked in were: Bethlehem Steel and Techneglas. No need to explain Beth Steel, but Techneglas employed around 5,000 people making television screens (just the glass funnel & face) in Pennsylvania and Ohio. The plants were shut down, and the HARDWARE was bought at auction, and installed in India and Mexico. Some of the former engineers at those plants were contracted by the buyers to help with the install. Not so much with the thousands of shop-floor employees. |
