| Author | Message | ||
     Froggy |
Oh yea another thing with that chart. Sales are down across the board, with the only one that gained was a Chevy. Editing rather than triple post, the top 10 most stolen cars in America: 10.) Honda S2000 Convertible: 8.1/$13,624 9.) 2005-2007 Dodge Durango: 8.1/$9,682 8.) 2005-2007 Hummer H2: 8.7/$18,791 7.) 2005-2007 Dodge Magnum: 9.9/$8,926 6.) 2005-2007 Hummer H2 SUT: 10.0/$23,771 5.) 2005-2007 Ford F-350 SuperCrew: 10.7/$20,138 4.) 2006-2007 Dodge Charger: 11/$7,047 3.) 2007 Cadillac Escalade: 11.3/$14,657 2.) 2005-2007 Ford F-250 SuperCrew: 13.1/$19,250 1.) 2007 Cadillac Escalade ESV: 15.0/$13,060 Everyone wants a big SUV, nobody wants to pay for one!  (Message edited by Froggy on December 09, 2008) | ||
| Brumbear |
Froggy I dig ya man but the ford I just bought is a POS | ||
| Froggy |
Yep it happens Brumbear. These days it’s a crapshoot, about equal chance of getting a lemon from all the major companies. At my old job we have a fleet of problem plagued Prius's. On my Monte Carlo, other than a speed sensor that keeps getting clogged by road salt, it’s been flawless. Oh and I recently had to change the front wheel bearings, it was making a loud grinding noise and causing vibrations. I am due for tires, gonna do them soon. No signs of the dreaded head gasket failures that many people with the 3.4L report. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Just because every damn federal agency flocks to the Chevy Malibu like it is the flippin Golden Arc of the Covenant of rolling stock, doesnt mean I want anything to do with their portly, plump, over priced, dull, gas happy fourdoor lumox.) Taxi cabs, police cruisers, and old blue hairs that cant afford a BUICK, may have a soft spot for it, but it doesnt belong in my garage; at any price. NOBODY is whining and crying about bringing back and bailing out Hudson, Studebaker, Packard, Deusenberg, Tucker, Auburn, Nash, Henry J's, Hupmobiles, DeLorean, AMC, Stanley.... The market took care of them and their cars, it will do the same with the current crop; if the government stays the hell out of it. I was NOT a fan of the buyout for the financial industries either  | ||
| Court |
>>>I was NOT a fan of the buyout for the financial industries either That's the big news today . . . American's are split about 50-50 on the idea of bailing out auto makers. Of course, on;y 27% of the people supported bailing out the banks and Congress did it . . . follow the money. | ||
| Patrickmitchell |
This is funny and speaks volumes...  | ||
| Patrick2cents |
lets consult some experts in this matter.... Doctors' Opinion of Financial Bail Out Package. The Allergists voted to scratch it, and the Dermatologists advised not to make any rash moves. The Gastroenterologists had sort of a gut feeling about it, but the Neurologists thought the Administration had a lot of nerve, and the Obstetricians felt they were all laboring under a misconception. The Ophthalmologists considered the idea shortsighted. The Pathologists yelled, 'Over my dead body!' while the Pediatricians said, 'Oh, Grow up!' The Psychiatrists thought the whole idea was madness, the Radiologists could see right through it, and the Surgeons decided to wash their hands of the whole thing. The Internists thought it was a bitter pill to swallow, and the Plastic Surgeons said, 'This puts a whole new face on the matter.' The Podiatrists thought it was a step forward, but the Urologists felt the scheme wouldn't hold water. The Anesthesiologists thought the whole idea was a gas, and the Cardiologists didn't have the heart to say no. In the end, the Proctologists left the decision up to some ***holes in Washington! | ||
| 86129squids |
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| Xl1200r |
Ferris, sorry, have to disagree on the cost of living issue. I am currently working on a move from Toledo, OH to Greenville, SC to be closer to the transplants (and for better weather). The cost of living around BMW is higher than around Jeep... I live in a dead city in upstate New York near Albany - it used to be a major manufacturing center, but it has been dead for a long time now. My work has an office in Greenville, and I would take a pay cut if I were to move there because the cost of living is still less than it is here. BUT, they can charge that, and the people that need a big diesel, will pay for it... That's generally because the people that need a truck like that are either business owners or rich hobbyist, and chances are whatever they need to pull with it costs lots more than the truck itself. BTW, the Chevy Duramax... yeah, thats Isuzu... forgot about that... If you want to get into symantics, Isuzu is GM. Where's my bailout? And this is the exact mentality that is killing our caompanies, our kids and our nation. NEWS FLASH! This bailout IS your bailout. I can garuntee that the cost of keeping these 3 companies afloat is FAR less than letting them die. 3 MILLION JOBS GONE in the first year. Think of what that does for the rest of us still working. American vs. Jap cars? I worked in garage through high school and college and drove all kinds of things, from total junk boxes to super-luxery european sport sedans, corvettes, posches... even a lotus. The bottom line is Jap cars break just as much as American. They have nothing better to offer. You know why the "last longer"? First one is a myth force-fed by the 80's and early 90's quality issues at the domestic companies, which is not an issue anymore. The second is the service schedules - the stuff Honda makes you do to you car on a regular basis is sickening, and people are willing to pay it "because it's a honda and I know it'll last a long time". There was more I was going to say, but I can't remember what it was now. I don't like bailouts, I like pure capialism... but we're in a global market, and when on team stacks the odds in their favor, the others will fail if they don't do the same. | ||
| Xl1200r |
I remember now... I got hired to my job with just about no experience. When I started, my salary was $5,000 a year more than I was "worth". Last year I got a 9% bonus, and this year I got a 7% raise. Sounds like a Union gig, but it's not. You don't have to work for a union to get paid like you do. What's sickening? I have two college degrees, and after this inflated salary, bonuses and raises, I still make LESS than an 18-year-old with a HS diploma and no experience who's installing drain plugs. | ||
| Froggy |
Talking about fleet sales? They don't buy Malibu’s. GM has the old style Malibu for sale to fleets called the Chevy Classic. Its sales are not reflected in the Malibu figure above. Yea I know there will be some fleet sales of the Malibu anyway, but the amount is the same as any other car. The Chevy Impala is a fleet king, as you can see by the chart its hurting too. You seem to really hate the new Malibu, I bet you haven't even seen one up close. Even the biased against GM, Consumer Reports, loves it. Oh despite what you can't seem to believe, it does better on gas than the Camry (33mpg highway vs. 31 on the Camry) http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=25482 http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp?id=25276  Your comment on the bail outs, things were different back then. It was Americans competing against Americans. Little to no foreign cars then. These days the Japanese government is propping up Toyota and Honda, giving them an another unfair advantage over our auto industry. Also, Chrysler was bailed out before in 1979. Chrysler did great and paid off the loans early. The government made a nice profit off the deal too. Patrickmitchell, I saw that picture yesterday. No point in commenting on it as it would be reiterating everything I said here already. Also the fact that just about everything is wrong on that picture is besides the point. | ||
| Gunut75 |
Just a thought.......I have a friend with a ford ranger. His son has a mazda (s1000 or s2000). They are the same truck! Front axles....the same. Engines....the same. Interior.....the same. The mazda is $3000 cheaper. My brother had a Mercury Tracer....with a mitsubishi motor in it. Are'nt most of the foreign companies owned by the big three, or is it a joint venture? | ||
| Froggy |
Chrysler was doing join ventures with Mitsubishi, GM owned part of Suzuki, Subaru, Izuzu. Ford owned part of Mazda. All the above have been sold off off. There is still some joint ventures, like Toyota and GM make the Vibe/Matrix. Also the Mazda 3 is the Focus  Look at this chart, its old so its not 100% accurate http://jalopnik.com/assets/images/gallery/12/2008/ 03/thumb1280x1280_2364177540_0e30819365_o.jpg | ||
| Cityxslicker |
There is one parked in my front drive from an unnamed agency. It is heavy, gutless, pork, plump and a gas wh@re. I have driven it in Jturns on a closed course, I have run it around the track, I have done ABS panic stops with it. I have enough seat time in the car to know that I dont like it. Might as well be Green Eggs and Ham; I don't like it, Sam I am. None of the vehicles with any sex appeal were listed in your chart. No Mustang, Thunderbird, Miata, Audi TT, Corvette, Charger, Challenger, VW Beetle, PT Cruiser, Chevy SSR, Chevy HHR, Saturn Skyy, Any Porsche... | ||
| Froggy |
If you think all that about the Malibu, don't even think about a Camry or Accord! Take all those attributes and double them. I understand you don't like it, it’s not for everybody, but that’s why they have many different vehicles available The list I posted is the top 16 selling in America. I don't think I have ever seen a full list compiled of every car from every manufacturer. If you really want I can get you the numbers for each of those models, except the T-bird and SSR, as those have been gone for a few years now. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Back when cars had style. Hot rod V-8, aftermarket brakes, no stereo, and Katie bar the door. Ready for moonshinin  | ||
| Cochise |
Slicker, do you realize you listed the PT Loser? | ||
| Froggy |
At first I was wondering why he listed that, but after he posted the pic it made sense. He likes that style, despite the fact that the PT Loser is missing a few cylinders and is driving the wrong wheels Still doesn't explain the Beetle, but I beat him up enough for one thread | ||
| Cochise |
BTW, on that chart, does that show fleet sales? The reason I ask is, Honda produces less vehicles, AND they don't sell to Rental companies. I think Honda is winning. | ||
| Froggy |
I assume that it does include fleet sales. Honda does do fleet sales to rentals, but not in the levels that most other companies do. Here is statistics for the 2007 model year, the newest one I got data for. http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Statistics/StatsViewer.aspx?file=http://www.automotive-fleet.com/fc_resources/stats/AFFB-cht-car-LT-reg.pdf&channel= As you can see, the 2007 Malibu, which is the old style, has an embarrassing 60% of sales to fleet. GM has been cutting down in years, I the 2008 numbers should be in soon so we can see how much it has changed. And more direct to your question:  | ||
| Cochise |
Honda doesn't do fleet sales, unless they have been lying to me. (shudder) | ||
| Froggy |
They sure as hell do. My old government job had hybrid civics before switching to the Priass. Click the link if you don't believe me. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
ah the Beetle, come on, how many of you have tinkered with that aircooled four ? Its not a great vehicle by todays standards, but it definitely changed the automotive world. and the damn things are fun off road  The new ones have that nostalgia look, but not the soul of the originals | ||
| Froggy |
Oh I thought you were talking about the new ones! I was starting to wonder which team you were batting for <insert gay icon, can't find the code> | ||
| Brumbear |
I'll tell ya a little story about VW Beetle or as it's really pronounced anyway fow,vay,Kaefer or VW BUG. The car was the first car to have financing my wifes family all lives in Germany and they were telling me how their parents when they were little got a book of stamps each month they paid and sent in a stamp when you paid for the last stamp you could go up to the Plant and pick up your brand new PEOPLES WAGON or Volks Wagon thus giving birth to modern financing.Brother did we screw that up but I thought it was pretty cool and Porshe designed the beetle BTW | ||
| Cityxslicker |
To be fair to the Malibu, the Ford Taurus is an abysmal auto abomination as well. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Graphs and charts, OK so GM for example, their sales are down 41% November to November. Did their production go down as well. Hell Harley-Davidson saw a downturn coming and they CUT production. Did the cost of dollar averaging per unit decrease because tool, die and productions were already in place for current models? Did the cost of wages change? Did the cost of supplied components change? Did the spike in Fuel prices affect production numbers? Did they overpay the CEO and pass the money onto the consumer? Did the cost of retirees and benefits push operating expenses and price above the market demand of the vehicle? Did build numbers that favored big trucks/SUV's affect the ability to sell current inventory to a gas shocked economy? Did discounting and employee pricing make everybody that bought one at full price feel like a chump and betrayed? (hard to put a dollar price on that one, but your repeat customer numbers will show it in 5-8 years) Graphs and charts are great for soundbites and news headlines. theres a big whole missing in the rest of the story. Didnt even get into supply and demand curves... | ||
| Xbpete |
I watched with the utmost interest a Science Channel program on ultimate factories, subject was the GM plant dedicated to the Corvette especially the Z06... We CAN build with the best in the world, the question has to be, why if the ability to create fine motorcars is within us do we not do it? Laziness? No pride in work produced? Unions? Poor business practices? more likely a combination, will 14 billion make a difference.... I think not. Watching a factory worker in shorts and golf shirt straining (sic) to accomplish a single machine and computer aided task yet being compensated royally sure makes me want to buy a new GM that costs more than I paid to build my house... cut down, cut out, cut back and build something affordable that will outlive the years of payments... Toyota can do it.. this is America, the nation that changed the world forever in the 1940's by coming together to get the job done.. Our country is calling again, are we up to the task of restoring our national pride or will we continue to be judged by failure upon failure and sell out all manufacturing to other countries... Take a page from the USA generation that saved the world ... Yes, we can and will be more than a footnote in history, we must stop the finger pointing and finding fault and blame. DO SOMETHING POSITIVE LOCALLY, it just might be contagious... | ||
| Swordsman |
I have a 2008 Mustang GT, built in November of '07. After a year of driving, I can tell you the engine is a thing of beauty. 300 hp and I consistently get over 24 mpg (up to 28 mpg once). I dunno how they did that, but I'm impressed. As a package, it's too rough around the edges to be a commuter (stiff suspension, on/off clutch, notchy shifter), but the faster you go, the smoother it gets. Beyond the engine output shaft, all bets are off. The entire rest of the drivetrain is an accident waiting to happen, and I've had most of them, some more than once. During my first 2 months of ownership, the car stayed in the shop for nearly 30 days. I had to have a new transmission, a new axle, rear brake work, and TWO new complete rear end assemblies because the 1st replacement was defective. Currently I have a popping strut mount that the dealership "can't reproduce", so it still isn't fixed after 2 visits. Ford's initial quality, IMHO, is an absolute joke. I will NEVER buy another one, end of story. It'll probably be a kick-ass car if I can get the bugs worked out, but there's WAY too many damn bugs for a freakin' $27k car!  ~SM (Message edited by Swordsman on December 11, 2008) | ||
| Froggy |
Yes, but not enough. GM has cut shifts at most of the plants and even idled a few.
Harley is a smaller company, and puts out as many vehicles in a year as GM does in a day. Bigger ships steer slower. Not only GM, but every auto maker has made cuts to production.
Honestly I do not know, but I assume so.
Everything I have been hearing is cuts in upper management. They got rid of a lot of temps not too long ago, and in the most recent union contract negotiations the unions took a nice cut in their benefits.
Costs constantly vary, even a while back they stopped Z06 Corvette production because the supplier for the rims had an issue. I occasionally hear about rising costs of steel affecting production costs.
Yes, they saw people were buying more and more Cobalt’s as result, and added another shift (gone already) to that plant while closing a Silverado plant.
GM CEO Rick Wagoner announced he is taking a pay cut and will only make $1 a year now. But he was already making 8 figure before that. Even I felt he was over paid, but there are tons of CEOs that make more.
It is estimated that $3k of each vehicle sold goes to paying for the benefits. That eats most of the profit on cars. GM was losing money on the Cobalt sold for the first 2 years till the production costs came down. Remind me of another entry level vehicle that makes the company next to nothing yet everyone wants to update and put in a XB frame
Yes, SUV and pickup sales dropped to next to nothing, but mostly due to union regulations GM had to keep building them. It would be cheaper for GM to build a ton of vehicles that can't sell then build nothing at all. But GM did make significant cuts to production as stated above.
No different than buying a computer and a month later you find it half off. The market is really fickle, literary overnight Geo Metros on eBay went from $500 to $12k. Reverse happened with SUVs. It’s like stocks and other investments.
Yes, it’s a fast changing busy industry and hard to stay on top of. A lot has happened in the last few years, and everything is different now. |
