| Author | Message | ||
     Fresnobuell |
I was at Buttonwillow yesterday and had Dave Moss of Catalyst Suspension setup my bike (the BEST $20 I ever spent) and his conclusion was that the bike is sprung too stiff for someone of my weight (about 200 in full gear.) As it stands now, I am at the limit of the suspension with minimum preload on both ends and it is still a little too stiff in the forks. This just confirms there was a good reason that BMC switched to lighter springs on 7/7/08--and also the reason why the moto mags might have been messing with the actual steering geometry if they received the stiff suspension version for a test bike. PS I posted this in the Quick BOard, but due to our long service intervals on the forks, I'll just mention in passing that Catalyst Suspensions will do a complete fork oil change for $150. This is way cheaper than the dealership. Bay Area BUellers should look him up when the time comes. Plus he travels nationally as well, so if you are interested in getting this service done by a true professional, he may be in your area at some point. http://www.feelthetrack.com/services_track.htm (Message edited by fresnobuell on December 09, 2008) | ||
| Bobup |
Harlan +1 I had him do mine at Infineon last month...preload as set from the dealer/factory was uneven what a difference his tuning made on mine...even just riding around town and my 10 mile canyon ride home....AMAZING BTW mine is an early build and I push 230 with my gear | ||
| Spectrum |
So Harlan, can you post up what all your suspension settings are now? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I can tell you that front preload is dialed to MIN and rear is on 2 (I mistakenly posted that both were on the min.) Let me carefully backout the other settings he set so I can report back. Hopefully I won't screw it up. His goal was to get the preload (sag) and rebound setup as a baseline. Compression could be dialed per rider preference. How surprised was I when he said my rear shock was stiffer than his racebike? Also, I was only using about 2/3 of the fork travel, where 3/4 or even more is desirable. Really neat to have someone tell you about your riding tendencies, both positive and negative, by simply analyzing your suspension and tire wear. | ||
| Ccryder |
Thx for the insight. | ||
| Teach |
This is really helpful info. Thanks! | ||
| Pariah |
Harlan, So, what you are saying is that someone would have to be well over 200 pounds with gear before the bike's suspension isn't "over-sprung," according to this suspension guru? I wonder if he's considered the weight distribution (quite biased to the front) of the bike, and the bike's geometry. Under heavy braking... really heavy braking... some of that stiff suspension up front might come in handy. I just find it difficult to believe that Buell would get this wrong, and maybe it's one of those issues that's more a matter of what people are used to (i.e., Japanese sportbikes). | ||
| Khill |
I had very little issues getting the 1125R I rode to work well. Plenty of adjustability for my riding and weight. (185lbs) Ken | ||
| Rocketray |
Khill and other expert racers. To help us "suspension neophytes" get an idea of the range that real racers use.... could you post what your suspension is set at for the track? Type of track? (bumpy/smooth tight/long sweepers etc) Weight? Riding Style (ie tuck or upright) (I ask this because I dont really get into tucking) General air pressure front and rear would be helpful too Thanks a ton, Ray | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Ken, you were demoing an '09 at the Infineon Inside Pass, IIRC? If so, you were on lighter springs than those of us that have bikes produced before 7/7/2008. Also, Dave Moss was very aware of the 1125r and highly complimentary of the machine (whether or not it was because the owner was present is always debateable, but he seemed genuine.) Things like referring to and speaking intelligently of our "perimeter" braking system vs. a dual disc setup, automatically knowing that the compression adjustment was available thru the little hole in the frame but you needed a long 3mm ball wrench to get to it, knowing that the seat was held by two torx bolts (okay he didn't know the size.) My point is that he was familiar with the 1125r and it was obvious by observing and listening to him. One of my silly pre-conceived ideas was wondering how in the hell is this guy gonna setup my BUELL without a manual, after all it isn't Japanese? Turns out guys like this don't need a manual at all. I feel what he did was not brand specific. 1) Set sag via preload. 2) Set rebound so both wheels act the same when encountering a bump. This seemed all important and he basically did it by pushing up and down on both ends and making adjustments until both reacted the same. 3) Set compression. Not sure exactly how he arrived at this setting, but analyzing fork travel played a role. I also believe he set rear compression on the firmer side to prevent too much weight shifting to the rear wheel upon throttle (running wide on corner exit, front wheel shake on acceleration can result.) Compression is a subjective setting. Preload and rebound should not be changed for the most part. That is what I took from it. Of course, when you have an expert and a newbie discussing a subject, mis-interpretation is certainly possible. YMMV. | ||
| Khill |
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 05:03 pm: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ "Ken, you were demoing an '09 at the Infineon Inside Pass, IIRC? If so, you were on lighter springs than those of us that have bikes produced before 7/7/2008. Also, Dave Moss was very aware of the 1125r and highly complimentary of the machine (whether or not it was because the owner was present is always debateable, but he seemed genuine.) Things like referring to and speaking intelligently of our "perimeter" braking system vs. a dual disc setup, automatically knowing that the compression adjustment was available thru the little hole in the frame but you needed a long 3mm ball wrench to get to it, knowing that the seat was held by two torx bolts (okay he didn't know the size.) My point is that he was familiar with the 1125r and it was obvious by observing and listening to him. One of my silly pre-conceived ideas was wondering how in the hell is this guy gonna setup my BUELL without a manual, after all it isn't Japanese? Turns out guys like this don't need a manual at all. I feel what he did was not brand specific. 1) Set sag via preload. 2) Set rebound so both wheels act the same when encountering a bump. This seemed all important and he basically did it by pushing up and down on both ends and making adjustments until both reacted the same. 3) Set compression. Not sure exactly how he arrived at this setting, but analyzing fork travel played a role. I also believe he set rear compression on the firmer side to prevent too much weight shifting to the rear wheel upon throttle (running wide on corner exit, front wheel shake on acceleration can result.) Compression is a subjective setting. Preload and rebound should not be changed for the most part. That is what I took from it. Of course, when you have an expert and a newbie discussing a subject, mis-interpretation is certainly possible. YMMV." Great post and great info! Yes, I was riding an 09 model at the Inside Pass day. I did not know they had changed spring rates. I have ridden 08's, but that was on the street and with that type of riding, I didn't feel any difference. Dave does a great job and his general knowledge about suspension set-up lets him gets bikes in the ballpark. Every bike has their own little nuances and unless you spend a huge amount of time riding or setting them up, finding all those model specific tricks is hard to do. A key factor for me riding and setting up a bike is to have it balanced, to have the front and the rear work well together. The 1125R was easily able to this. In doing that however, a front or rear setting may not be "in the ballpark" and there may be a compromise. And, what one person likes may be different than what someone else likes. | ||
| Khill |
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 03:39 pm: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ "Khill and other expert racers. To help us "suspension neophytes" get an idea of the range that real racers use.... could you post what your suspension is set at for the track? Type of track? (bumpy/smooth tight/long sweepers etc) Weight? Riding Style (ie tuck or upright) (I ask this because I dont really get into tucking) General air pressure front and rear would be helpful too Thanks a ton, Ray" The settings I ended up with are for a pretty quick riding pace at a track where the elevation changes play a large role in how I want the bike to work. So, those settings are going to be pretty stiff and may not be too condusive to someone else. The main thing is the bike had the adjustability to run that pace. I ended up making both ends stiffer with compression, more rebound up front, less rebound in the rear and more preload in the rear. The tires worked great and I ran them at 33f and 29r HOT off the track. Ken | ||
| Bobup |
I can tell you that my tires (cold after getting home) after Dave had adjusted suspension and pressure was 30f and 29r. And boy were they sticky to the touch! Dave had also reminded me (not that it was needed) that these were STREET tires...not race slicks BTW they were brand new Scorpion Syncs...about 100miles before hitting the track | ||
| Fresnobuell |
As far as tire pressure is concerned, this was a big concern on MOnday at Buttonwillow as the track conditions were pretty awful. Wet and cold in the morning and just plain cold in the afternoon--the sun didn't come out at all. The tire tech guy said street tires can be run at 30/30 cold. I have read the ideal is a 5-7 poound pressure increase from cold to hot pressure. I started with my usual 29/f and 29/r cold. The hot pressures were 32/f and 35/r. So my rear looks okay, but my front looks like it needs adjustment. Am I right in thinking that taking air OUT when the front tire is cold, will generate more heat, therefore a higher tire pressure, ultimately resulting in the 5-7 lb increase from cold to hot pressures? | ||
| Bobup |
Yes...but do it in small increments....you will need to "learn" what the pros already know more involved than just the PSI....temps DO come into play.....track temp, air temp, tire temp after being on the track I'm sure there are equations already worked up...it's just getting someone to "share" it with you goodluck | ||
| Anonymous |
One warning. There are not suspension settings that are universal, unless the bikes in question are very similar. If you set up your 1125R with the same settings as a rider of similar weight uses on a GSXR, you will not get similar results. For a 200 lb rider, there is no way that the slightly firmer early springs won't work. I could explain why the settings need to be different but it would take me a long time and I'm not supposed to be here anyhow. You can check with Shawn, Barney, Crevier, Jeremy, the Ohlins guys, Showa guys, etc., anyone with real track experience on the 1125 and other bikes. | ||
| Rocketray |
Wow.... great information here guys! This is the best thread going right now. Except maybe for the drummer thread. "Is it ready yet". I can hardly wait to get that on my bike. Seriously, thanks for the very informative posts everybody. I wish I could talk with "Shawn, Barney, Crevier, Jeremy, the Ohlins guys, Showa guys" but unfortunately, not available at the moment, so will have to work with the fine folks here on BWB. I agree with "There are not suspension settings that are universal, unless the bikes in question are very similar." and "what one person likes may be different than what someone else likes" So, very subjective subject we are talking about. None-the-less, lets not let this thread end. More questions: KHill, you made "both ends stiffer with compression, more rebound up front, less rebound in the rear and more preload in the rear" This is after starting with the recommended suspensions settings as given in the owners manual? Another question for Khill (showing my neophytism here) You did "more rebound up front". Does this mean "more" turns out from maximum? or less turns out? (to be "more" closer to maximum rebound). And how many turns? and another question "33f and 29r HOT off the track. " No cold pressure available because you use tire warmers? if so.... about what temperature are the tires in the warmers? Or better yet, (this will vary from brand to brand) but, what temperature is a HOT tire? (good hot, not bad hot please) Hopefully this won't be giving away any of your trade secrets  Thanks, Ray | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Thanks anony for the input. And I have to respectfully comment that the spring change seemed significant--the difference in settings between the two are pretty drastic. This is assuming that the all other things in the forks remaining equal. I will also comment that it took 1125r owners to point out the confusing discrepancy in the owners/service manual--hence the resulting BMC bulletin that cleared the confusion. I personally called customer service and was told that I rec'd the incorrect version of the owners manual and CS would send the correct version right out to me. Knowing how stiff my suspension already felt at the proper settings for my weight and the updated setting would only make it stiffer--well, it was obvious there was a problem and it wasn't that I had the wrong OM version. I will give BMC credit as there were a couple subsequent personal calls from customer service indicating that I was right originally. During one call, they cited the reason for the varying suspension settings was a spring change on 7/7/2008. I appreciated the clarification as it put the issue to rest. | ||
| Khill |
"More questions: KHill, you made "both ends stiffer with compression, more rebound up front, less rebound in the rear and more preload in the rear" This is after starting with the recommended suspensions settings as given in the owners manual? Another question for Khill (showing my neophytism here) You did "more rebound up front". Does this mean "more" turns out from maximum? or less turns out? (to be "more" closer to maximum rebound). And how many turns? and another question "33f and 29r HOT off the track. " No cold pressure available because you use tire warmers? if so.... about what temperature are the tires in the warmers? Or better yet, (this will vary from brand to brand) but, what temperature is a HOT tire? (good hot, not bad hot please) Hopefully this won't be giving away any of your trade secrets " I did write up an article on my day for RRW so no, I can't give out specific settings but, this should help. No tire warmers used and the tires were warm to the touch after coming off the track the first session. Cold pressures were: 26R 29F I did record the settings the bike started with and I have no idea if they were the ones in the manual. The reps did say that the bikes were dialed in a bit different for track riding. I added rebound and compression to the front fork. So, I turned the adjusters clockwise to increase resistance. I did try some settings on the fork when I did some street rides on the 1125R last summer. I would be cautious adding too much more than 1.0 turn from maximum with rebound and compression on the street. The lower speeds and bumpier road surface will just make the ride too harsh. That setting is very close to what I used on the track and should work well, but it is a stiff setting....The nice thing is that the bike has plenty of adjustment for different riders and tracks/roads. | ||
| Fresnobuell |
No tire warmers used and the tires were warm to the touch after coming off the track the first session. Cold pressures were: 26R 29F So your hot PSI were 33F and 29R? I would have expected to see a significantly higher rear PSI hot--especially the way you ride! | ||
| Khill |
So your hot PSI were 33F and 29R? I would have expected to see a significantly higher rear PSI hot--especially the way you ride! I had to bleed the tires down after the first session....I can't remember how high they got, but I believe it was a few lbs. high in each tire. | ||
| Jammin_joules |
suspension here is a little stiff what wrench is it I need again?  | ||
| Krassh |
Tim Taylor has a wrench for you.  | ||
| Jmr1283 |
being 140lbs, there is no comfy ride on street with mine.  but im clueless with this suspension stuff. Ill get it. ive drove it for 2months. Im sure the factory manual set up for my weight is perfect for hard track riding. I can only get a inch sag on the front. and the rear about the same. Its hard telling from a mirror next to u. alright done.. | ||
| Slaughter |
If you are measuring the ACTUAL sag - "zero" is when the bike is fully lifted and "sag" is measured when you and all your gear are sitting on the bike. If you aren't getting close to 35mm in the front and 25mm in the rear, and you have backed the adjusters all the way out, then you DO need softer springs. It takes at least 2 of you to measure sag - 3 is even better to hold the end of your bike off the ground to measure your "zero." (not really OFF the ground but to where the forks or shock are fully extended) | ||
| Rocketray |
Thanks Khill, Anon and all. Very useful info. Ray | ||
| Josh_ |
uhm, what's the confusion in the manual? | ||
| Bobup |
there is a bulletin out with 3 (three) different sets of settings depending on build date | ||
| Eweaver |
Is there a copy of the bulletin floating around? Stickie maybe? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
I thought it was two sets of settings...one for prior and post 7/7/08 builds. Did i miss something? | ||
| Khill |
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:17 pm: -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ One warning. There are not suspension settings that are universal, unless the bikes in question are very similar. If you set up your 1125R with the same settings as a rider of similar weight uses on a GSXR, you will not get similar results. For a 200 lb rider, there is no way that the slightly firmer early springs won't work. I could explain why the settings need to be different but it would take me a long time and I'm not supposed to be here anyhow. You can check with Shawn, Barney, Crevier, Jeremy, the Ohlins guys, Showa guys, etc., anyone with real track experience on the 1125 and other bikes. This is a great point. So easy to fall into the trap of, "XX runs these settings so they must be OK for me". The reason the bike has adjustments is to cater to each persons riding habits and skill set. While some of these settings may carry over, there is for instance no doubt my front compression settings I used on the track, would rattle your fillings loose on the street. The cool thing for me I have found, is that the 1125 has such a broad range of adjustments, it can be set-up to be a great street or track ride. Ken | ||
| Bobup |
My Bad....2 (two)sets of settings there are 3 tables on the buelletin....I jus counted em incorrectly the bulletin # is B-085 dated Nov. 5, 2008 it has been posted elsewhere in the 1125 forum | ||
| Jlnance |
The reason the bike has adjustments is to cater to each persons riding habits and skill set. And weight. I think that's probably the thing that varies most between riders. |
