| Author | Message | ||
     Carbonbigfoot |
+1 | ||
| Rocketray |
another +1 for Chad | ||
| Bob_thompson |
I also agree with the last three posters. With my "underpowered 1125R" I show many higher H.P. riders my tail with experience and this great handling bike. And on another note; I have always understood that maximum H.P. always comes with an air/fuel ratio boarding on real lean.(proven) That is the greatest cylinder pressure comes with the greatest heat and just before a dangerous condition of meltdown. I have seen this in burning with an oxy/acetelene torch. I.E. as you add oxygen and lean the flame down the heat increases proportionally. Now it seems that BMC and its engineers have given us the maximum H.P. while staying somewhat SAFELY lean in the upper rpm's and with the latest flash given us the slightly better fueling at lower and mid range to aid in acceleration and cooling effect at cruise conditions. Again I have to stress that this is of course with a relatively stock engine. Naturally for added performance all tuning techniques would apply, more air, fuel and exhaust, etc. I for one, at least at my altitude(4200ft.), have experienced no loss in felt performance and gained better low speed tracking and drive ability as well as better cooling. All better for street riding which is 98% of my riding with an occasionally day at Millers track for advanced rider training sessions. This very well may suit most riders for the street and occasional track time. If you want to race tune for that specifically. And I'm still waiting for a somewhat easy way to tune the ECM so I can use my new muffler system to the max. with no adverse conditions. I know its almost ready. Thanks guys for all your work. Sorry if I've said something similar before, just trying hard to understand why there is so much tinkering going on with stock engines to an already great package. Thats fun also and I too enjoy it but I enjoy riding more. Bob | ||
| Spike |
These two statements contradict each other:
If power doesn't matter, why wish for a Rotax in the Ulysses? To put it another way:
Suppose you took it to the dealer to have something fixed and they handed it back to you with 75hp. Would you ignore it and "just go ride the dang thing?" I don't own an 1125R and I'm not in the market for a new bike, so I don't have a dog in this hunt. However, I've seen dyno charts of a reflashed '08 1125R putting down ~117hp to the rear wheel. The exact same bike made ~128hp on the same dyno before the reflash. | ||
| Chadhargis |
I see your point, but let's compare apples to apples. 117 is ~9% lower than 128. 75 is ~12% lower than 85. So, the same 10hp is proportionally more of 85hp than it is of 128hp. To keep the comparison fair, you have to say that the dealer gave me back my bike with 77.3hp versus 85hp. Now, to me, that difference is probably imperceptible. Heck, 10hp is probably not something I'd notice a whole lot. Now...let's look at the "neutered" 1125 figure of 117hp. If my Ulysses had 117hp, that would be a bump of 27% or 32hp, and that would, for sure, be a noticeable difference. One that could be exploited easily on a bike as big as the Ulysses, which at times, is lacking in the power department. Doesn't mean you can't ride it fast, just means it's harder to ride fast as you can't let the motor fall out of the "sweet spot" and you have to be very careful not to constantly slam the rev limiter on the Uly since it's peak power is right at redline. The 1125 engine isn't so much about power as much as it is flexibility. The ability to hold a shift point a bit longer. To have some more rev range to play with. To not have to beat the engine to within a inch of it's life every time you ride it. So, I don't see my statement as contradictory at all. Would we all love to have a 200hp bike that got 100mpg. Sure, why not? But does it make sense to bemoan any bike that doesn't meet those criteria? Of course not. To quote a favorite movie of mine, "Risky Business"......"You don't buy Sony if you want RCA." Same thing goes for motorcycles. If you want 175hp motorcycle, then there are plenty of options. When I bought my Ulysses, I knew the engine would be the weak spot of the bike, and to be honest, it's not been as bad as I thought. But heck yeah...I want the 1125 engine. Even if the current Uly motor could produce that HP figure, I'd still want the revvier powerplant versus the very narrow RPM range I have to play with on the 1203 air cooler. | ||
| Buellborn |
Chadhargis Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 01:55 pm: ....... The 1125 engine isn't so much about power ...... huh? | ||
| Diablo1 |
I have always understood that maximum H.P. always comes with an air/fuel ratio boarding on real lean.(proven) That is the greatest cylinder pressure comes with the greatest heat and just before a dangerous condition of meltdown. I have seen this in burning with an oxy/acetelene torch. I.E. as you add oxygen and lean the flame down the heat increases proportionally. Sorry to disagree, but you're wrong. Lean mixtures don't mean highest power for an internal combustion engine. Lean mixtures do mean the engine runs hot. Engines aren't blow torches.} | ||
| Slypiranna |
We still have not addressed why some reflashed 08's are at a power loss with the latest flash folks. I remember Tas mentioning this a while back and I have no reason to doubt him. He seems to post accurate info. Remember those "few" bikes that were not running correctly prior to this flash?! I wonder how many that posted perfection then are still running on that flash? If the WOT and/or higher rpm parameters were not altered, which is what we were told and thus have to believe, why would a healthy 08 1125R loose ANY power with this latest flash? That is the question, NOT whether or not some are happily living with it...again. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Diablo1, the torch comparison was to illustrate how leaning a mixture with more oxygen WILL increase heat in an air fuel ratio. That is undisputable. I politely ask you to read your physics books again. Additional heat does in fact relate directly with added pressure and thereby added H.P., again a physics staple. And I stand by my position. Many, many drag racing and salt flat days experience has proved this out for me. My maximum H.P. cost me a fine Venolia piston once (melted) but I set a personal best speed record at Bonneville before the engine seized. Please reconsider your position. Other inputs certainly welcomed, just stay with proven facts. Thanks, Bob And Sly, I think we just do not know all the variables that have occured with each individual bikes/engines this past year. Just from this site we have seen quite a bit of experimenting with many items that could effect the outcome/running of these bikes. (Message edited by bob_thompson on December 09, 2008) | ||
| Slypiranna |
That was not my point but thanks for the input... And why do you think some are still experimenting?! Other input relevant to the thread? | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Sly, I think some if not many are still experimenting because that what many of us like to do to either personalize our rides or in the quest for more performance, and I am one of those people. I have just found where to be satisfied with whats works for me. If I did Bonneville again, like Fireman Jim does, I'd be in the quest for all the H.P. I could attain. Where my personal bike is concerned I have all I need to have FUN, and stay reliable. Others are never satisfied and thats what makes everything better in the long run and I applaud those folks. I'm sure we would not have our 1125's if not for Erik and the Elves experimenting. And we move forward............... | ||
| Slypiranna |
Again Bob, you've missed my posts meaning. No worries. Let's just move on. Any other input relevant to the thread by 08 owners? | ||
| Teach |
I gained 3 h.p. when they did the sidestand spring recall install. I am so sorry!!! It has been a long evening...  I know Sly, back to topic.... | ||
| Slypiranna |
Thanks Teach...I'll have a beer and forget about it for now. Only trying to help as I know what it feels like to be a minority with wonders...herky jerky wasn't long enough ago to forget. I hate to think that perhaps a few of the owners are in the same boat now, that some of us were, then...mm | ||
| Diablo1 |
Here you go Bob. You may not like the link, but it is correct. Lean is hot and less power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio | ||
| Tasmaniac |
Chad mate you have a weird way of thinking. Myself and some others here have experienced some horsepower and torque loss and seeing significantly lower afv's since getting our reflash done which was reccomended by Buell. I paid nearly $20,000 for a bike that had 131.55 rwhp 75.47 ftlb of torque dead stock. I de-noided it and added a D&D pipe and got 134.33 rwhp and 78.30 ftlb of torque. Post reflash no 3 i now have 123.48 rwhp and 72.12 ftlb of torque this is not what i paid 20 grand for and i dont think it is acceptable. I do one track day and one drag meet a month and when it comes to racing a v-twin horsepower is everything. Regards Brett | ||
| Bombardier |
Do not own one and won't for a while yet. Does the reflash only change the fuel table or does it change the ignition table as well? The reason I ask is that perhaps a change of the static timing may well get you the best of both worlds. Just a thought. | ||
| Hogs |
Damn My Xb12R with just a few mods I have done makes as much or more than that RW Torque values now... Hmmm MAybe I should just spend say the 4 or 5 Grand and do the Old Gal UP,( Forget Blowing the 6 or 7 GRand it wd. cost me to get a 1125 ) to get around 115 to 120 RWHP close to the 1125 and HAve A AWhole lot More Fun Factory/ TORQUE than them 1125`s BTW Torque is where its AT  Wdn`t ya All Agree............! | ||
| Spike |
Well that's a bit silly. Why not just buy an SV or Wee Strom and be done with it? Then you'd have all the rev range without having all the worries about horsepower.
That's the whole issue. The minute the 1125R buyer plunked down their cash, they voted for a 146hp motorcycle. To then turn around and deliver them a 136hp motorcycle is weak. I don't understand how this is even an argument. They paid for a motorcycle with a certain performance level, now they have a motorcycle with a lower performance level. How is that not a problem? Suppose they could do a reflash that removed chassis rigidity or suspension compliance, would that be no big deal as well? | ||
| Xbswede |
"BTW Torque is where its AT Wdn`t ya All Agree............!" Its nice but not everything. You need HP to go with it. Otherwise you just have another Harley or short distance sprinter. IMO. | ||
| Hogs |
Well.... say 115 rwhp and say 105 RW Torque wd. be awhole lot more FUN than any 1125  | ||
| Rfischer |
Au contraire Aron. As Carrol Shelby noted 40+ years ago after winning Le Mans with a Ford GT40 fitted with a NASCAR 427 push-rod big-block which was down 75-100 hp to the Ferrari multi-cam, multi valve, much higher revving competition, "Horsepower sells cars, but TORQUE wins races..". Audi proved the point more recently once again with its unbeatable diesel powered P1 racer. Which BTW won every long-distance race it entered, Le Mans, Sebring, Daytona, Nurbring, etc. Hardly a "sprinter". | ||
| Rfischer |
And Chris, yes one can easily build an H-D sportster-based Buell motor to make 115 hp/115 ft./lbs at the rear wheel and it will run away from other V2's generally. Where the 1125 evens the contest is vehicle weight. The Push-rod lump is heavy compared to the 1125R and simply has more mass to accelerate which soaks up the greater torque. | ||
| Hogs |
Weight? I don`t think theres awhole lot of weight difference? Except maybe for the rider LoL Rear wheel torque is RW. Torque just the same? | ||
| Rfischer |
Chris, There is a 30+ lb difference in the weight of an 1125R and a Uly. Yes, RW Torque is observed torque at the rear wheel, net of driveline losses. | ||
| Crowley |
Were all the Dyno runs done on the same Dyno + operator within a short time of each other so that the atmospheric conditions were identical? Were any corrections done if the runs were on different days or even am or pm? There could be enough variables here to throw out the Dyno results. I only use a Dyno to show comparisons of states of tune, usually within an hour or two of the previous run. | ||
| Xbswede |
}"Au contraire Aron. As Carrol Shelby noted 40+ years ago after winning Le Mans with a Ford GT40 fitted with a NASCAR 427 push-rod big-block which was down 75-100 hp to the Ferrari multi-cam, multi valve, much higher revving competition, "Horsepower sells cars, but TORQUE wins races..". Audi proved the point more recently once again with its unbeatable diesel powered P1 racer. Which BTW won every long-distance race it entered, Le Mans, Sebring, Daytona, Nurbring, etc. Hardly a "sprinter"." I don't disagree at all. But these are all High HP motors to start with and the percentage difference is not as drastic as they are on bikes. I was just making a point based on that TQ is everything. Just look at any 750CC with only 60-70 FT of torque but yet will eat most XB's on the track unless running a very short straights. | ||
| Xbswede |
"Post reflash no 3 i now have 123.48 rwhp and 72.12 ftlb of torque this is not what i paid 20 grand for and i dont think it is acceptable." Could it be that the D&D was designed for the stock MAP. Now that you have the new MAP it is no longer optimum for the pipe and needs to be re-tuned? You indicated that the AFV dropped. This would indicate that you are getting a lot less fuel at WOT and would result in lower HP numbers as well. But this is not the flash fault because it was designed for stock pipe. | ||
| Hogs |
Well Not sure about the Uly weight compare to say the R weight, Neither here or there 30 lbs. does not make that much of a difference in Dead weight, Now rotating weight/mass maybe, but once again measured at the rear wheel Its the figures that count.Anywas don`t want to get off track here on this thread.. (Message edited by hogs on December 10, 2008) | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Thanks much Diablo1, I am certainly enlightened and stand corrected. Never too old to learn. Sly and others, sorry about prolonging this, but I am also perplexed at why some have evidently, almost certainly now, found a reduction in H.P. after the third flash and yet many have not. Probably those who like me do not have access to a dyno. However I am still completely satisfied with the street performance. The quest for perfection continues. Maybe its time for Anonymous or any engineers from the factory to chime in and help us to achieve what we all seem to want. The best sport bike out there; as advertised. I AM moving on now, time to ride but Brrrrrrr, its cold here. Thanks to all for the great discussion. Bob |
