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Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 08:05 pm: | 
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Well, I'm sure watching the spec class Beemers "fly" around the track is gonna be a HUGE hit, too, aye José? |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 09:06 pm: |
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Last year BMW sold twice as many bikes as Buell did in the US.
There will probably be more BMW fans in the Daytona grandstand this year than Buell fans in the past few years.
Some will even be riding to the track on the Street Legal Version of the bikes they will see race:
The Ducati fans can still cheer on Anthony Gobert and Scott Russell on their 999 Superbikes.
It's all about the ticket sales, Rick.
I hope BRAG will still have their Daytona shindig with Battletrax and all the other fun stuff next year. Too bad they won't have anybody to cheer on at the track. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 09:49 pm: |
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You shouldn't be racing oranges against apples? What the hell is that about, Jose? Here's some input from an intense racing fan:
MotoGP has 500cc two stroke triples running against 1000cc four stroke V-5s, against 1000cc four stroke fours and 500cc two stroke fours, and...EVERYONE LOVES IT.
What a crock to say everyone should be running the same thing in every class. 600 Supersport is fine, but what about somewhere for non-apple motorcycles competing with each other? Pro Thunder has been getting faster each season more than any other class. At Biketoberfest, Eric Wood was turning 1:57's on a restricted-to-112HP Firebolt with race kit that I heard was similar to what was going to be offered to the dealers derestricted for Pro Thunder. His feeling was that 1:54's could be in reach for next year.
The BMW's will be dogshit slow compared to that, but it's OK, right? Much better than having different manufacturers and dealers involved as in Pro Thunder... Hey it's the new AMA American Revolution..."Comes de Ravolution, everyone gonna be riding de same motorcycle ...government issue" Well, the BMW's will be pigs, so stick an apple in the mouth of each one of them, and stick the remainder... |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:03 pm: |
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No, it's not about running the same thing in every class. It's about coming up with reasonable rules.
Pro Thunder was fine until the AMA let the 748 in the class, then it became apples and oranges, race bred bikes with lights versus hopped up street bikes.
FUSA lets the 984cc Firebolt in with the 600's. They don't let Buell use extra displacement, which is as it should be. They do let them use a full fairing, which Buell currently does not sell to anybody. You can close your eyes and know exactly where Eric Wood was at the track in Pocono, cause you could almost hear him all the way around the track his bike was so loud.
If Pro Thunder had remained purely about aircooled twins and non Ducati watercooled singles and twins (ie SV650} The class would probably still be around, because it did provide an inexpensive way for people to go AMA racing.
The Canadian Thunder Series has the rules about as right as anybody. Lots of brands and good competitive racing, too bad the AMA did not go in that direction.
In the meantime, enjoy the boxers throwing sparks off the engine cases around the track. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:04 pm: |
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Hey, here's a thought...let's come up with a solution that will satisfy everyone.
Now, those with real knowledge know Anonymous above is certainly incorrect that the BMWs will be slower than Pro Thunder (We've heard over and over from Jose and others how pathetic the Pro Thunder bikes are), and of course the stands at Daytona will be filled with the thousands of BMW owners with Boxer Cup replicas (just like the ones on the track...).
But the AMA and Americans are fair, so perhaps the poor little Pro Thunder bikes could be allowed in the Boxer Cup event, as kind of a support series. We can have them grid behind the BMW's and then start about 20 seconds after the BMWs do. That way they won't get in the way of the German juggernaut at the start, and probably will be strung out enough to not get in the way when the BMW's catch up to lap them.
Gee, then the handful of Pro Thunder fans can see their bikes race one last time, and also will be converted to boxer cup fans after seeing how far superior the BMW's are! Everybody wins! I mean Buell too, because they will see the error of their ways! C'mon, guys, let's petition the AMA and bring happiness and harmony back!!! |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:09 pm: |
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no, the AMA is tired of picking up the oil spills after every Buell race |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:10 pm: |
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Jose,
Actually, FUSA does allow extra displacement, in fact they allow it for everybody! They control performance with dynamometer measurement with all competitors being equal in that regard. Buell Lightning class:95HP; 600 Supersport:115HP; Superbike:145HP.
Why is the class called 600 Supersport instead of Supersport like it was 'til last year? Honda sponsored the class and made them change the name. Luckily they didn't change the rules... |
Timbo
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:13 pm: |
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Why is it there is so little racing on the West coast? More to the point, Southern California. I wish there was more to see around here, heck we even lost F-USA at Willow Springs a couple years ago. I loved watching the Lightning series races.
One of the reasons is attendance I guess, but it didn't help that Willow was out in the desert far from the more populated coastal cities. I wish they would bring a Buell event closer to home.
Why couldn't Buell just say screw AMA Pro Racing and try to foster F-USA or a similar venue with it's own classes? Have a class just for tube frame Lightnings and a class just for the XB's. They could even have a Sportsman type class for the XL's, try to foster amateur and pro participation in all three classes, making them weekend events.
Forgive me if this already exists somewhere. I just don't see it here in So Cal and think it would be really cool and could become very popular. Kind of the way Speedway was before they tore down Ascot. Man I LOVED Ascot and the stands were always packed. I know the two are totally different types of racing but nothing ever came in to replace the void it left behind. I mean promote it as an "All American" event, I would dig it.
In a dream world of racing we could have local leagues (maybe four or six) with the champion, or top two riders of each league meeting for a National Championship at the end of the season. We could all cheer for our local heros. Dreaming I know, but I think it could be really cool if it worked
And screw the AMA snobs, heck, boycott 'em!
Timbo (maybeIshouldbeontherantpage) |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:15 pm: |
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Oh, that's right, the many oil spills...from the grenaded Ducatis! Hey, I know why you can't put the extra apples where Anonymous suggested...can you please pull your head out a little to make room? |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:19 pm: |
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Timbo,
I think Buell may have just started what you suggested, based on Erik's comments. At least the part where they give up on the AMA. I don't know if the dealers and riders will support FUSA, though, 'cause AMA is what so many know. What enthusiasts need to do is to start following FUSA races, and supporting them. |
S320002
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 11:00 pm: |
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"Last year BMW sold twice as many bikes as Buell did in the US." Well_Duh?!!
BMW sells how many models? BMW has been around how long? BMW has how many billions in backing? And don't give me that crap about Buell being backed by Harley. Buell is a minor part of the Company and Harley doesn't have near the funding that BMW or the Japanese companies have. Even if Erik had that kind of funding you can bet he wouldn't be whistling the same tired tune as everyone else.
As for those dumbassed enough to think a Superbike is a good ride for the street... there are companies out there who will accommodate your idiotic notion. (Perhaps the AMA has a place on their race committee you as well.)
Greg |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 11:04 pm: |
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Imonabuss...I hope you're being sarcastic.
Let's face it, Pro Thunder is as "Superbike" as any Buell will be. Why knock it, then?
Were there many SV's at the podium?...whoa...they must really suck, right?
...and since when are 130+hp middleweight twins an inexpensive way to go racing? Are you serious?
Timbo, look in the knowledge vault under racing/circuit. There are many classes that tailor to 1200cc Buells, and a few that the 1000cc Buells fit into quite nicely.
I don't understand all this stuff about leaky Buells. Do that many of them blow up? They seem to be pretty reliable in Lightning guise. My Buell gets beat mercilessly and I've had no oil on the ground except for one rockerbox leak, that has apparently been permanently resolved. |
Psychobueller
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 08:27 am: |
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"Last year BMW sold twice as many bikes as Buell did in the US."
Jose, you just love to stir the sh*t don't you?
BMW has been mass producing motorcycles since the early 1920s. I think it's pretty damn impressive that Buell, a company that has been mass producing motorcycles since 1994, manages to sell half as many motorcycles in the US as BMW. You perpetually see the Buell glass as half-empty. I used to enjoy reading your posts. |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 09:20 am: |
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"Last year BMW sold twice as many bikes as Buell did in the US."
I can spot a potential MENSA member a mile away......are we keeping you from your Optimist Club meeting ?
Court |
Elvis
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 10:38 am: |
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How many BMW riders are even vaguely interested in racing? I would guess that if you took 50 Buell riders and 100 BMW riders you'd likely have more race fans in the Buell group. If you lump Harley riders as having at least some sibling interest in Buell racing, there's no contest. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 11:43 am: |
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Yeah, my 10:04 post was sarcastic. The actual bottom line is that if the AMA had the cojones to do it, the Pro Thunder bikes would eat the BMW's alive. That would be an entertaining show, to say the least...seeing these privateers on Buell, Ducati, Suzuki, etc. reeling in and stuffing past the international cast of stars on their factory prepped bikes. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 11:47 am: |
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JQ,
It wouldn't hurt my pride or ego to have an SV650 beat me on my Nallinized Cyclone. I ride/race for fun, not to feed my ego.
You keep harping on the Buell fairings and that the other classes are the same machines and equipment that the general public can purchase. That is total bullshit! How many privateers are ever in contention for the AMA Supersport or Superbike championships? Answer NONE!!! Why do you think that is? How about AMA Formula Extreme? Yeah, those are the same bikes we can buy. Please! You have been sucked into the fantasy world of UJM marketing. You have swallowed their bait, assimilated it, and the hook is dangling out of your nether parts and you don't even know it.
When you decide to go AMA racing on one of those off the shelf UJM racebikes, then is when the hook will get set, then is when after spending tens of thousands of dollars to get your bike up to competitive speed and the factory bikes still have an extra 5mph trap speed, then is when you will feel the pain of the UJM marketing hookset, then is when you will realize how flawed your view really is. Best thing to do is cut the line before that hook gets set. 
You think the fairings on the factory racers, or even the privateer racers are factory stock pieces? WRONG!! Try Sharkskinz or any other number of aftermarket racing parts manufacturers. A Supersport FUSA XB9R is as "stock" as any of the other bikes that are competitive in that series. How many stock 600 UJM's put out 115 rwhp. I don't know of any. I hear the AMA 600SS factory bikes are putting down 130 rwhp. How do you think they make that power?
Are you still pissed off that you couldn't get a roadracing belly pan for your S3? It is a racing part for racing only. Even the ZX12R and virtually all the UJM repliracers come stock with a vented belly pan. Ever wonder why Buell doesn't want to sell the racing parts to street riders? Could they possibly cause problems when used in a street riding scenario? Could overheating be an issue to be concerned about? |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 11:56 am: |
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Wait a frickin' minute......are you telling me that the bike Jason Pridmore rides is NOT available to me at a dealers? They said it was "stock", it runs in a "stock" class.
This hurts.
Blake....is there really an Easter Bunny? |
Mikej
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 12:03 pm: |
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About now is when somebody dredges up that pic posted last year or so showing the guy in the easter bunny suit riding a buell in an apartment parking lot. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:17 pm: |
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Blake, you know who Sam McDonald is in the CMRA. He sold his 115 rwhp 600 this season. It had a wealth of engine mods including different pistons, headwork, cams, carbs, ignition and B&B. All in all about 5k. Plus another 5k in suspension/chassis work and plastic. I think he sold it for 6500 since it was 2 years old, but the engine had been rebuilt. I had understood that stock rwhp was about 100. Nevertheless, that bike took 1st place 2 seasons in a row with the help of a slick as shit pilot. Not everyone does that much work but even he had sponsorships and donations for parts and labor to get him there. Definitely not an off the floor bike.
Most privateers spend their bucks on tires, power is secondary. Sam's bike is an extreme case in the cmra, don't know about Haner's or Falt's bikes. Hopefully the AMA trickle down won't effect the cmra like the factories do the AMA. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:24 pm: |
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No matter what the rules ares, there will be somebody with an advantage. (ie suspension, motor, parts made of unattainable)
A claiming rule would really level the playing field.
$30k for the winning Superbike ???
$20k for the winning Supersport ???
This has been tried before but the factories shut it down... |
X1glider
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 01:34 pm: |
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I hate that claiming rule. There are some that abide by the rules but end up having to decline and be disqualified to not lose their honest built ride. That alone isn't fair, they'd lose either way. There just needs to be rules in place where the mods are limited and absolute and off the shelf!
I still feel the HP and weight classes are the best way to go. It's the only fair way to race. If the class is limited to 110-130 rwhp and a minimum weight of 350 lbs, anybody who can build that bike should be allowed to compete, no matter how many cylinders, valves, liquid/air cooled, cc or valvetrain type it is. Rather than claiming, a simple dyno run would be the final judgement in a dispute. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 02:32 pm: |
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I agree. Let's support FUSA in every way we can since they do it by weight and HP. Not only does this make many brands able to compete, it makes for fair and reasonable cost racing.
And you know what, there are darned few if any complaints about FUSA. Compare that with the AMA, where people are and have been ticked off for years. Not just Buell, but every brand has had big issues with them, and you wouldn't believe how the private riders (90% of the field) feel about them.
Let's just blow the jerks off and go to FUSA races! |
Turnagain
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 03:39 pm: |
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OK, the bunny shot I've got is givin' the Borg salute, so how's about this one:
now José, quit pokin' these folks eyes with that apples & oranges stick. 
oh yeah -- FUSA shots |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 03:46 pm: |
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This is the one he meant.....I was restraining myself
 |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 04:23 pm: |
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Quote:I hope BRAG will still have their Daytona shindig with Battletrax and all the other fun stuff next year. Too bad they won't have anybody to cheer on at the track.
Oops I forgot that the week before the AMA shows up FUSA has their opening round, so if BRAG changes the schedule a bit, there will be plenty of Buells for BRAG members to cheer on at the track. GO BUELLS GO FUSA!
Quote:You keep harping on the Buell fairings and that the other classes are the same machines and equipment that the general public can purchase....
I'm insulted, really. OF COURSE FULL ON RACE BIKES are way different than the street legal versions, I have never made that claim. Do you think I actually believe what you said above?
HOWEVER:
From a distance, Aaron Yates 600 Supersport looks a lot more like the one you can buy at your local Suzuki dealer than Mike Ciccotto's or Eric Wood's Firebolts resemble the one you can buy at your local dealer. That's good enough for most squids.
OF COURSE THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ON THE INSIDE, THEY ARE RACE BIKES. BUELLS INCLUDED.
But the Suzuki still displaces 600 cc, while the Pro Thunder bolt displaced 1350cc. The FUSA spec Firebolt that races in the 600 class still displaces the "stock" 984ccc, they don't get any extra displacement breaks.
Quote:How many stock 600 UJM's put out 115 rwhp. I don't know of any.
How many stock Buells put out 115 rwhp. I don't know of any.
If you want to play that game, which is closer to "stock", one that goes from 100 to 115 hp or one that goes from 76hp to 115 hp? |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 04:32 pm: |
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Jose,
You are wrong, and it was posted before. In FUSA, Buells are allowed more displacement, and so are other competitors. The classes are horsepower controlled not displacement controlled. So the Firebolts racing in FUSA may or may not be stock displacement. Likewise for other brands. But neither can make more than 115 RWHP. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 05, 2002 - 11:59 pm: |
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Quote:From a distance, Aaron Yates 600 Supersport looks a lot more like the one you can buy at your local Suzuki dealer than Mike Ciccotto's or Eric Wood's Firebolts resemble the one you can buy at your local dealer. That's good enough for most squids.
So, you're the voice of the squids now? 
I don't see what validity displacement has when you're comparing apples to oranges, right? It's the corrected RWHP that matters, IMO.
If you want to play that way, José, how about comparing bikes in similar states of tune. A "supersport" Buell only makes 10-15 more RWHP than stock, too.
I seems like you wanna portray Buells as inferior/unsuitable as racebikes...but running with other makes of similar power/weight, they hold their own. That's good and fair racing, is it not? I think so.
If you wanna talk about looks, I think Lightning class racebikes are the most gorgeous bikes on the planet.
GO BUELLS GO FUSA! |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 02:30 am: |
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JQ,
I've seen plenty of SV650's in full race fairings at the track. Some of them are making near 100 RWHP. Don't hear you complaining about them.
Buells look less like race bikes than the UJM repliracers. HOOOO freakin RAYYYYYY!!!!
That is one of the main reasons I like Buells so much!
The excess plastic has one use that makes any sense to me... racing at triple digit speeds. I don't want it, I don't need it for street riding or track days at OHR.
An XB9R is certainly very easily recognizable in full race trim. If I lined up a set of four 600 Japanese Supersport Repliracers, one from each manufacturer, each with primered race bodywork, would you at a glance be able to tell the brand of any of them? I don't think so.
Who cares what the stock HP was. How about we limit rpm or number of valves instead of rwhp. Let's see how much hp those 600's can make when limited to 8K rpm. Answer? Not much.
Go FUSA! In the image of Buell, they keep-it-simple-stupid! |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 06, 2002 - 02:37 am: |
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Oh yeah. I've seen too many bikes of all different brands dump oil onto racetracks. That is certainly not a trait owned or even dominated by Buell racebikes. One of the FIM WSS bikes split open during the last race. Took out the rider and one other bike. Race was red flagged until the track could be cleaned.
Saw another 600 UJM repliracer spewing coolant (water) all over the track my last two track days. Water is not as bad as oil, but when you are at 99% and expecting dry pavement, it can have the same consequences. |
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