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Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 02:50 pm: | 
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Sly, I get your post, but it seems to me that in a panic stoop is when your rear brake is least effective. The rear tire may not be in the air, but there is so little weight on it, that it takes next to nothing to lock it up. also if you are use the engine to help stop the bike via downshifts, you might consider that the rear brake. |
Rfischer
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 02:51 pm: |
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Harlan,
The application of rear brake ahead of the front causes the bike to squat and reduces the sudden weight transfer and pitch to the front. It is a steady application of rear brake, fading to hard front, then easing the front as the bike approaches the corner apex ["trail-braking"]. It makes for a smoother on-off-on power and braking evolution that can be particularly useful when the track surface is rough or there is an elevation change. It also makes for smoother street riding.
Smoooth is good! |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 02:56 pm: |
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I stated earlier:
I START with the rear brake (and a throttle roll off) to transfer the weight of the bike from the rear wheel (during acceleration) to the front wheel. Once the transfer begins, I keep the pressure on the rear, but there's no point INCREASING it from this point forward. That's when I'm concentrating primarily on the FRONT brake, but I never release the rear until I've come to a complete stop.
At one time it really was impossible to "endo" a bike, but c'mon people... have you REALLY used your front brakes lately? If you're not careful you can EASILY endo a modern sportbike!
But as someone pointed out... you are more likely to cause a front end washout. This is easy to do if you grab a fistful of front brake BEFORE you've transferred enough of the weight of the bike from the rear tire to the front (this is one of the reasons I tell people it's a BAD idea to cover the front brake... you might end up grabbing a fistful of brake too soon and wash out the front end).
Everyone has a method that works for them, but based on the laws of physics, using both brakes is the best way to stop quickly ONCE YOU HAVE THE TECHNIQUE FIGURED OUT. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 03:06 pm: |
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Thanks Robin,
Although this seems like a technique meant for trail-braking, for us that haven't dabbled in trail braking yet, I suppose that we can still apply this technique prior to corner entry? I like to get my braking done before tipping the bike in.
Smooth is good and this technique may help on some bumpy secions that seems to give me trouble. Maybe I will keep that rear brake on for a while! |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 03:21 pm: |
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I START with the rear brake (and a throttle roll off) to transfer the weight of the bike from the rear wheel (during acceleration) to the front wheel.
If I am reading Rfisher's post correctly, doesn't the rear brake slow the transition of weight to the front of the bike? |
Redscuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 04:31 pm: |
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Oy, going over the fronts when applying just the fronts is an urban myth!? B*******, I've seen the video. And note, I didn't say "WILL" go over the fronts; I said "MAY". Give me a break. Talk about believing what you want to believe, instead of reality. I seek only the truth, not to be judged to be right. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 05:57 pm: |
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Oy, going over the fronts when applying just the fronts is an urban myth!? B*******, I've seen the video. And note, I didn't say "WILL" go over the fronts; I said "MAY". Give me a break. Talk about believing what you want to believe, instead of reality. I seek only the truth, not to be judged to be right.
Of course it CAN happen. I don't remember ever stating that it is impossible to go over the bars, but likelihood of that happening is rare. Rare enough to be called a myth. I will also state for the record that anyone that is going thru 2 sets of rear brakes for every 1 set of fronts is way too reliant on the rears.
Keith Code says forget about the rear brake, period.
All I can say is good luck when you really have to stop the thing...... |
Slypiranna
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 06:08 pm: |
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Jaimec, perhaps, has posted the best;
Everyone has a method that works for them, but based on the laws of physics, using both brakes is the best way to stop quickly ONCE YOU HAVE THE TECHNIQUE FIGURED OUT.
Bottom line, don't type to hard on your keyboard unless you do have it all figured out?
What ever happened to the thread's origin? It didn't have anything to do with the last few posts! LOL! |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 06:20 pm: |
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No... ANY deceleration will begin the transition of weight from the rear wheel (on acceleration) to the front wheel. Combining the rear brake with throttle roll off is how I do it.
The trick is to balance front brake application with that weight transfer to get maximum braking without locking the wheel. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 06:21 pm: |
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"Whatever happened to the thread's origin?"
Welcome to internet thread drift... |
Redscuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 06:28 pm: |
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Don't take my comments personally, fresno. I stop in a hurry using both brakes; or were you hoping otherwise, when you say "good luck"?
And Code is a racer, and doesn't have to get to work safely on his bike; so I'll discount his teachings.
And calling endos an "urban myth" indeed is a statement that the poster feels it is impossible to go over the bars. Look up the word "myth".
Let's not talk through our hats here. Are we trying to help each other to ride safely so we can enjoy our 1125r's, or is this a battle to be "the most right"?
I'm professionally trained by Honda Australia Rider Training, and they teach and prove by demonstration that a bike stops the quickest using both brakes. So I use both brakes when stopping. And I sit at every stop with my right foot on the brake, as taught; or are you one of those wankers I see at lights here with both feet flat on the ground and their hands on the tank; or the left foot poised to drop into first for the takeoff? To do either is to be out of control of the machine. And to be in the habit of using the front brake only -- especially brakes that I expect are a lot 'grabbier' than on my old Honda -- is to invite trouble.
If instead we want to talk racing, I'll opt out because I've no experience. But racers (I would expect, if they're doing their jobs right) don't come to a complete stop every few kilometres, either; nor do they ride with opposing traffic.
If you don't agree, I don't give a rat's ass. My objective is to offer information that might help people; what's yours? |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 08:02 pm: |
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And Code is a racer, and doesn't have to get to work safely on his bike; so I'll discount his teachings.
I think you just made my point. Discounting Keith Code because you don't ride on a track is laughable. His techniques carry over to both arenas.
I disagree with pretty much your entire post, but rather than disputing line by line, I will only say that your information in this case is inaccurate and you are not helping people by posting such. |
Redscuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 08:36 pm: |
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"Everyone has a method that works for them, but based on the laws of physics, using both brakes is the best way to stop quickly ONCE YOU HAVE THE TECHNIQUE FIGURED OUT. Bottom line, don't type to hard on your keyboard unless you do have it all figured out?"
Well said, Sly.
Fresno, I'm going to stop posting on this thread. The other Board members deserve better than to listen to petty bickering. In the future I'll refrain from directly responding to your posts on other threads, and I'll ask you to do the same for mine, OK?
(Message edited by redscuell on November 26, 2008)
(Message edited by redscuell on November 26, 2008) |
Carbonbigfoot
| | Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 12:21 am: |
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"Can't we all just get along?"
-Rodney King
R |
Rfischer
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 10:14 am: |
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Harlan, Jaimie
Initial application of the back brake causes the bike to 'settle' on its suspension, rather than pitch forward sharply as the front brake only does. Weight transfer is occurring, but not so dramatically; when the front brake is thereafter applied, the weight transfer increases greatly, but less abruptly than with only the front from the onset of braking. It is a technique to improve smoothness, not necessarily shorter stopping distances, although the very best racers certainly do it to gain every possible advantage. Experiment on your own bike; you will immediately feel the difference, tho' I grant you less pronounced on an ultra-short wheelbase bike such as a Buell than on a truck like my FXR daily-rider. Still, it also was effective with my S1-based racer/track-day special which had a set of Yammy R1-based brakes on it.
Trail-braking offers a deeper corner entry, or higher corner entry speed, if you will.
And Keith Code is one of the world's premier riding coaches and savants. To dismiss him as only a racer or racer-relevant indicates a lack of knowledge of his body of work and impact on the study of motorcycle dynamics and handling. He is also an innovator who introduced the mental element to rider skill improvements. Some may criticize his "touchy-feely" approach, but none can argue with the results his techniques consistently achieve. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 03:42 pm: |
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Never said it'll pitch forward sharply... only that it BEGINS the weight transfer to the front, that's all. If you apply too much front brake before the weight of the bike has transferred over you'll lock the front wheel and cause a wash out.
And one thing I appreciate about Keith Code is that he doesn't just say "use this technique" until he's done sufficient, laboratory-style testing to PROVE it is an efficient and effective technique. There are a LOT of these schools that say "do it my way because it works for me" without having done any real analysis as to WHY it works, and if it can be done better (Reg Pridmore comes to mind). His "No BS" bike is a classic example. Although there are STILL plenty of people who claim the most effective way to steer a motorcycle is through body positioning, the "No BS" bike PROVES beyond a shadow of a doubt that the most effective way to steer a motorcycle is with counter-steering through the handlebars.
Boy, talk about thread drift. I'm done here, sorry about going off on such a HUGE tangent this time! |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2008 - 04:57 pm: |
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I was doing some reading on track techniques and found this interesting tidbit:
When the expert riders at SPORT RIDER did a test, they got the following results:
REAR BRAKE ONLY: 289 FEET
FRONT BRAKE ONLY: 151 FEET
BOTH BRAKES: 146 FEET |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 06:58 pm: |
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Is 6 feet worth the chance of hi-siding? Only if it is a cliff.
EZ |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 12:51 am: |
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I never use the rear brake at the track. My favorite passing strategy is on the brakes into turn 3. It's baloney that using the rear brake helps settle the bike. If you use the front brake correctly, it will not unsettle the bike. I can see why the most skilled may be able to employ the rear brake to some advantage. But I don't see it available for myself.
The short of it is that there is no difference in a soft gradual application of the front brake versus using the rear instead. |
Chameleon
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 02:03 pm: |
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To resurrect this thread's original topic...
I, too, have experienced the same issues as the OP. My dealer's service manager even agreed that something was very wrong with the front brakes after riding it briefly and replaced the rotor, pads & pins all under warranty... That helped a lot, but not for long.
Then I found a posting here on badweb about similar problems other riders were having and decided to try the hard-braking method to burn off deposits. That helped almost as much as replacing everything, but for an even shorter amount of time. The effects of this method seem to diminish as well... Attempting it again after the build-up returns does not seem to produce as much benefit.
I have also gone through more sets of rear pads than front (still using the first replacement front pads and I'm on my 3rd set of rears) because I have tended to favor the rear due to the front not instilling much confidence with its very bad shudder when braking... It's worse at low speeds and gentle application of brake. I do find that it's not as noticeable at speeds higher than about 35mph and/or with firm front brake application.
Recently I had the dealer check to ensure that the front rotor is still in spec. They said runout is well within specs.
My next plan of action is to scrub the rotor as others have indicated here and/or replace the rotor and pads with aftermarket solutions. The wave rotor & EBC HH pads sound like a good combination.
(Message edited by Chameleon on December 17, 2008) |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 02:21 pm: |
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+1 Blake....
10% front brake pressure to facilitate the weight shift to the front tire.
followed by
full, smooth application of the front brake--tapering off as speed diminishes.
Smoother braking allows one to run a softer suspension setup, which has many benefits both on the street and track.
Remember, squeeze the brakes, don't grab. |
Chadhargis
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 06:16 pm: |
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If you are using the front brake properly, then there will be little to no weight on your rear tire and you will feel the rear of the bike "wagging" a little. This wagging is a good thing, as is a bike standing up under trail braking (which Buells are often criticized for). The "standing" force means you have traction on your front tire, if the bars go limp or the bike begins to fall in, then you are pushing or sliding the front tire.
On the street, application of both brakes is a good idea since it's distributes the braking force between both tires and you seldom find yourself needing maximum braking. It's also good on surfaces with reduced traction. On the track, I leave the rear brake alone. Never touch it. It's a highside waiting to happen.
I'm not a good enough rider to do much trail braking. I'm always fearful of loosing the front end (which I've done once and caught myself on my knee....scared the crap out of me). I tend to brake early, set my entry speed, and once tipped in, get on the throttle.
I lose lots of time riding this way, but the same technique can be used on the street which is where I do most of my miles. Getting in the habit of always taking the race line and trail braking will mean pain on the street. |
Eweaver
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:48 am: |
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Chameleon, I too had the shake of death in the front brakes. I had them checked by the dealer, and all the other things that go with it. After much aggravation, I put on a pair of $50 EBC HH pads and voilą! They were fixed (following a proper bedding of the pads). I didn't scour the rotor or anything. I just put the pads on. Did the change about 4 months ago and still LOVE it. Unless money is no object, try the pads before buying an expensive rotor (they do look nice though). |
Slypiranna
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 06:13 am: |
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Chadhargis,
Thanks for some great info in that post! Explains a lot I've been questioning over the years.
I've felt that wagging before but simply attributed it to improper suspension setup and/or my not so proper riding style.
After going down years ago, I agree a thousand times over with brake before turning and never touch the brakes once leaned over.
Thanks again! |
Duggram
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:09 pm: |
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After going off the end of a particular straight twice (then over the bars) I finally realized why iwas so out of control at that turn. I was using my rear brake too much in a panic mode. After retraining myself over a weekend on the track, I dropped my lap times a few seconds. All because I am now much smoother into turns.
This may not be for everyone. Also just started reading "Smooth Riding" by Pridmore. I think he's right, its all about smooth |
Duggram
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 12:14 pm: |
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Monty, you're wrong. Trail braking leaned over is good. Also if you watch pros race you can see them rear brake way late into the turn. You just have to be as good as they are. |
Rocketray
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 03:14 pm: |
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Sorry guys, I gotta chime in here.
Monty and Chad are right on here. Braking while in a corner is not a good thing during street riding. It should all be done before the turn in, in fact a bit of acceleration before the turn in, and continuing throughout the turn, is best to set the suspension.
Now, lets talk about the track. If you are going to win any races, you HAVE to trail brake, no doubt about it. Smooth is not only good, it is required. On the track, the margin of safety can can be allowed to go down to zero, because of a LOT of factors. Some of which are, No cars, No sand or debris, No hard objects on the side of the road. On the track you are assured of a clear road even on blind corners (corner workers are a racers best friend), you have intimate knowledge of each corner (a typical track has about 9 corners, which a racer gets to do over and over and over and over, and this is just during the practice sessions.) Thus, there are precise brake points, shift points, lines, etc.
What happens to the rider, on a beautiful twisty road here in Colorado, near the limits of the safety margin, is trail braking both front and rear deep into a corner, and is suprised by a doe stepping out onto the highway about 100 ft beyond the apex? Conclusion: On the street, a margin of safety should be maintained.
Ray (Club racer - 3 years, Street rider - 26 years) |
Duggram
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 06:02 pm: |
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Ray I can't believe you said that as a blanket statement. Since I started track riding and racing I always try to reinforce my riding habits on the street. I ride almost every day. Don't misunderstand me, I mean with common sense. I hope you understand my point. Everything in moderation. BTW I like what you said about racing. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2008 - 06:02 am: |
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Also if you watch pros race you can see them rear brake way late into the turn. You just have to be as good as they are.
If it was a matter of wanting to ride like a pro, we would all be doing it. Going to the track is a humbling experience for me personally. |
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