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Caféelite
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 12:29 am: | 
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Observation I made while checking my static time tonight in regards to being front TDC or not. There where roughly two points (separate rotations, one after the other) at which the timing mark was visible.
The first point that I got it in view ECM spy read a value of 5 in red. I have to move the flywheel back (to the left) maybe 2 inches to get it to read 0 in green. Now when I move the wheel forward (1/2 inch) just a bit the fuel pump ran and ECM spy when to 5 but obviously it was still to far to the left to see.
Now rotate the flywheel one time and you get that all over again but w/ the mark in your view.
I probably did this 6 times and it was consistent.
*shrug* not sure if this helps or not. |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:17 am: |
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I probably did this 6 times and it was consistent.
So was your timing correct? |
Caféelite
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:32 am: |
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I think.. |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:08 pm: |
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I also rotated mine forward at least 6 times and backward who knows how many times. I'm going to go back and double check by removing the front spark plug, to be sure i'm setting for the front cylinder. |
Cycleaddict
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:10 am: |
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has anyone used a timing light to check their timing ? (of course after installing the glass windowed plug ). is the timing light method acceptable practice anymore ? |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:49 pm: |
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I don't believe the timing light is very accurate on the buell. I don't know why, but I read it somewhere in my searching. |
Garyz28
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:06 pm: |
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Just in case anyone is thinking about it, don't ever try using a timing light without a glass window in the timing hole. It will spray a massive amount of oil everywhere. Don't ask me how I know! |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:38 pm: |
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Timing light might work to show you where the map is telling the ignition to fire - but you gotta remember that everything is done by the ECM. You set the ignition to "zero" with the mark centered in the port. Use ECMSpy or you can do this with a voltmeter connected to the green wire coming from the ignition - just watch for it to switch to 5V as you turn the engine forward. ANY advanced spark that you'd have with a running engine would mean that you would not see ANY mark because the spark is firing before TDC... (the mark would disappear) - so a timing light doesn't work on these kind of engine controls.
Set it to zero - let the module do the advancing. Can't use a timing light. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 09:50 pm: |
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Perfect answer! |
Garyz28
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:12 pm: |
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It seem's to me that if your timing maps have zero advance at the idle speed then a timing light should work. |
Cycleaddict
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:33 pm: |
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does the buell motor (at idle) "run" any ignition advance ? does any one know at what RPM the ignition starts to advance ? (a timing light isn't very accurate - now thats funny !) |
Garyz28
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:47 pm: |
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The stock maps have zero advance at idle. Advance doesn't begin until 2000 rpm's unless the throttle position is at more than 8%.
I would think a timing light would be an excellent way to verify the static timing mark was straight up where it should be.
Of course getting the clamp on a spark plug wire might be a challenge.
(Message edited by garyz28 on November 22, 2008) |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 12:16 am: |
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It'd be easier to do it with the engine power-on but not running - ( but I didn't know there was zero advance at idle - so technically it'd work)
I still think it'd be easier to just connect to the green lead and turn the motor until you see 5 volts and look for the mark in the window and adjust accordingly. Pretty simple actually - with ECMSpy or without - just using a voltmeter. |
Id073897
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 02:52 am: |
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Advance doesn't begin until 2000 rpm's unless the throttle position is at more than 8%.
Idle spark advance is set by the ECM at run-time. You can't use a timing light for the reasons explained above. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 08:48 am: |
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Just listen for the fuel pump to cycle... you don't even need a DVM. |
Garyz28
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 02:43 pm: |
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"Idle spark advance is set by the ECM at run-time. You can't use a timing light for the reasons explained above".
Gunter, I will concede that you know far more about the Buell ECM than I do, but I'm hoping you can explain further.
When I look at the stock spark table using ECMspy I see zero's in all the cells used at idle. Is there another source of data the ECM uses to determine spark advance? |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 05:55 pm: |
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Just because the table shows zero advance, that doesn't mean there isn't advance.
I've never heard of ANY motor that runs zero advance intentionally, anywhere in the rev range (possible exception? Maybe Wankel rotaries). The tables you are looking at are advance adjustments, not base maps. |
Cycleaddict
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:44 pm: |
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thanks reepiceep , just what i like .. a simple way to check my ignition timing . so when i rotate the crank and the timing mark appears, the fuel pump will turn on ? |
Moosestang
| | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 09:17 am: |
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The fuel pump will turn on every time a cylinder is ready to fire. It comes on even when the mark is not visible. So you'll still need to be sure you're watching the mark when the front cylinder is at TDC. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 11:11 am: |
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You MUST check for the fuel pump or 5V signal at TDC on the Compression stroke for the FRONT cylinder!
I have an interesting "reverse" problem since I put the 2008 flywheel set in my 03 cases - I have NO marks on the flywheel. I kinda faked the static timing by "feeling" the piston for TDC on the compression stroke.
Now, I just pulled the heads off for re-work (after bending a valve... DON'T ASK!) and am going to take the time to MARK my flywheel at TDC... and then SET my static timing. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 08:22 am: |
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rotate the crank and the timing mark appears, the fuel pump will turn on ?
Sorry, it's not that simple. The same thing will happen whenever the timing mark is in the window, whether it's TDC "fire", or TDC "compression", and the narrow offset of the V-twin makes it really easy to think is the correct cylinder when it's not. Even more sinister: the pump will cycle when the mark is at the extreme edge of the window during the "wrong" cylinder, even if timing is 100% correct and spot-on, thus leading you to believe it's way off and needs attention.
That's why the hoops for jumping though.
The pump coming on at TDC "fire" is an aid, once you know you're in the right place, so you don't have to look two different places at the same time, but it also happens several times if you roll the motor over slowly, including during all the "wrong" times that are available to set timing to.
I thought for years that there had to be a better way, and '08/'09's have it. But then it appears the later fuel maps might not be perfect. Oh well. |
Cycleaddict
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 12:41 pm: |
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thanks Josh , as "we" know . . . the timing marks are for the front cylinder to be observed at or near the completion of the compression stroke. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 02:52 pm: |
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That is a helpful clarification by Josh. I remember seeing both cases where you could see a mark in the window when the pump cycled. Since the bike I was adjusting was running well, I correctly assumed the closer one is the right one. |
