| Author | Message | ||
     Velocity |
Has anyone swapped there 08 1125r front header for the 09 CR? Wondering if it is worth moving the O2,I would think it would be a benefit since the 09 R's use the same part. Pros/cons? Scott | ||
| Slypiranna |
Tests with relocated o2's have already been done on the latest 08 R flash. No advantage after 500 miles with wideband and AFV monitoring. Remember, the flash for the 09's is different to the 08's latest flash. The reason for this is the o2 location, different injectors and I'd bet more than is yet known on the outside...IMO | ||
| Velocity |
Slypiranna, Sometimes I also wonder if there is more to the story. I guess it keeps us coming back for more or staying tuned in to the bad web. Thanks for the info, Scott | ||
| Timi |
What is this? Sly, can there be power there? I'm not as knowledgeable about this stuff as I'm used to carbs and egts and reading spark plugs and such. U know "old skool". But diffrent injectors? What more holes, better spray pattern? Moving o2's, wouldn't that give (placement) difrent temps due to being nearer, farther away from the port? Hummmm. Courious. By the way, pipe length does affect the torque curve, as does bends and diameter. The rule of thumb, as I have read, is longer, narrower torque curve and more peaky(read @ higher rpms) and the oppsite for shorter tubes. Interesting none the less.....cough. | ||
| Velocity |
Timi, You would certainly see a temp difference and that I would think would change the fuel in the front cylinder. Thats was the reason for the question to the Bad Web minds, BMC changed it on the 09's for a reason? I am thinking of moving the bung and welding in a plug. It looks like the front O2 wire wont reach, but I need to check that. The O2 part number is the same for the 09. Maybe the harness is different. The 09 pipes is in the 250.00+ range. Who has tried it? Scott | ||
| Slypiranna |
IMO, The "targeted" injector has a much finer spray pattern...not more fuel, just better atomization and resolution. Something to consider, with every year's release, tighter emissions are normally required...perhaps that is why this new injector was even chosen? Or another theory, perhaps these improvements were already slated for 09's production PRIOR to the issues found with the 0505 flash? Lots of questions, eh? The relocated o2's have a better sample in the new location. They are the same though. Longer life? Tighter emissions? We don't know yet. Adding these 09 components WILL require the 09 ecu and possibly the gauge cluster in order to work...unless you just happen to have a race ecu or another method of programming? No one has done this swap yet or even knows if the dealer will help in marrying the OLD VIN to 09 electronics? IS there an advantage? We don't know yet but we are starting to get information on the 09 1125R for a comparison. Meaning, what is different in the fuel and spark tables...all in time. The CR, should have a different flash due to the gearing difference. Hard to compare that one against 08-09 R. HOW much will this cost average 08 owner? TOO MUCH TO JUSTIFY! LOL! The latest flash for 08's, so far...seems just as good as the improvements on 09's and thanks to BMC, it was free of charge.  These type of mods/tests, won't be. I'd love to see one of you test it tho! | ||
| Timi |
Interesting...... Can a lower header or some type of muff besides the (sp) helmholtz design pass noise regs and and look a little "cooler"? Are, are we just gonna have to accept that the cork, er muffler will have to be replaced with nothing. Don't get me wrong its fine and meets fed regs and the "chambered" volume is scientifly designed to make acceptable power goals. But... I'm totally convinced that although 146hp isn't weak from a vtwin by any means. Its NOT all at its limit! Shure if I could get cams, more compression, and a killer map(on and on) 200+ hp wouldn't be self destructive. But we would be getting to a un ridable machine!! As F1 type hp per leitre would be insane! Food for thought.... | ||
| Velocity |
Sly, Maybe I am missing something, If you just change the location only wont the ecm learn? I thought I read here somewhere it learns over a 100 or so miles. Provided the harness(wire length) supports it. Scott | ||
| Oddball |
Velocity, You might be giving the ecu too much credit. If that change of location takes the values read out of the acceptable range it won't know what to do. Code flashing time. A goldfish can learn to swim round it's bowl, this way and that. But take it out and lay it on the table. It'll just flop around. You've taken it out of it's acceptable range and the only thing it learns is it can't swim on the table. Slypiranna, I'd think the 08 ecu would be able to handle the change of location and new injectors if a true 09 flash was available for it. Unless there are changes in the ecu's circuits, or something, between years that makes the programs completely incompatible. Or if it is not allowed or offered by Buell, buying a new ecu would be the only option. It would be interesting to see a detailed head to head exam. Rate mpg, crispness of fuel delivery, power. Any of the things an owner would notice. If only for technical curiosity because likely the improvements if any would be small compared to the parts and labor costs for an owner to update theirs. But if any are bound and determined to try, we curiously await your results. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Velocity, We welded separate o2 bungs way back mid year for wide band support. Sometime around last March. We did this, then, in order to try and understand the herky jerky! This location is within inches of the new 09's placement. We tested the stock o2's in this location with the factory Dec 08 flash, the first reflash and then the latest flash, 0505. Zero difference. Why? My theory is that BMC engineer's mapped both the spark and fuel maps for the 08's, o2 placement. After all, the actual sample between both locations will be a little different...perhaps even splitting hairs. Looking at the 08 o2's design, the sensor's sampling tip is placed within the very outer layer (boundary layer) of flow and only "sees" 1/2 the volume of each cylinder's exhaust cycle (due to the two into one primary design). Placement in that smaller diameter tube also requires overall higher sensor positioning...otherwise, flow would be compromised. Now the 09 location...it "sees" the entire spent combustion cycle. They are located after the small primary tubes merge. While I've not personally measured/compared the depth that each sensor's tip is placed within the exhaust stream, it would seem safe to question that it could be deeper...due to the larger diameter pipe it is being placed upon. Remind me to ask Xb9 to measure the o2 bung height...as he's got a new 09 R! We'll have to check this if only for the heck of our wondering minds! Also remember this. When the exhaust valve begins to open, there is a burn cycle STILL going on when the gases start to escape through that valve. (Our standard for highly developed engines when we are in head/cam design is to blow down the cylinder 68% @ BDC...meaning, at BDC, on the exhaust stroke, we have already gotten rid of 68% of that combustion cycle and it IS still burning!) Varying the placement of the o2 in distant from the valve also changes what gases are still either unburned/burning/totally burned and "mixed". Heat is another reason for placement. Good design is shown in the 09's location. Even catalytic converters fail when too close to the exhaust valve. Finally, o2 "clocking". 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock is where you wish to design around...the further you drop, on the clock, the worse condensation (after shutdown AND upon initial startup...H2O IS a byproduct of combustion you know!) and deposits tend to shorten the overall life of the o2 sensor. There is obviously a whole lot more to this and some of what I've suggested is perhaps, arguable. This is just based upon our work with engines over twenty plus years and less than 11 months wed with this 08 1125R! | ||
| Slypiranna |
Oddball, I think we need to GIVE this ecu credit if only for the mere reason that we've not fully understood what it does yet! No codes will flash from this test of o2 location...proven. The o2's feedback...via cross counts is what helps the adjustments to be made on the AFV side. ADAPTIVE FUEL VALUE. We THINK that it requires a certain number of cycles or counts in order to establish a new update to the Open Loop adjustment...LEARNED via o2 feedback, in Closed Loop. Early recommendations were a "learning ride" @ 4k/Closed Loop/3rd gear/3 minutes on level road way. That doesn't work. Period. It may have been the deal on earlier DDFI but it hasn't been proven on DDFI III and the 1125R/CR models. We seem to need at least 150-175 miles before the Adaptive Fuel Value adjusts...and only if IT NEEDS TO! That is KEY...as it might see all is a, ok! This ecu IS smart and IS unique. The fishbowl IS where I LIVE but I think outside the box too! The range for adjustment should be limited to AFV readings of at or near 110% high/90% low ON THE 08/0505 FLASH...NOT THE 09's! There IS a difference that we still don't understand yet! Injector duty cycle is what determines the last paragraph. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Timi, It is proven on this platform that eliminating the "reflection point" of the stock exhaust's design will cause one or more of the following; 115.5 AFV's...meaning, out of control. (Check your's...via diag mode on the dash...if you see this, warning, you've gone too far) A LOT of noise but an overall loss if compared on the dyno in credible testing. What most rider's "feel" as an increase is most commonly proven wrong by the timeslips and the dyno...Noise can and will discredit the best. Glowing primary tubes...that means either LEAN/TOO LITTLE OR TOO MUCH TIMING OR THE LOSS OF THE SONIC REFLECTION WAVE THAT HELPS KEEP THE NEW CHARGE WITHIN THE OVERLAP CYCLE! | ||
| Slypiranna |
Wait till you guys looksee at the exhaust valve lobe! IT IS INCREDIBLE TO UNDERSTAND! This engine and it's electronics ARE cutting edge engine design. The stock exhaust is ALSO HIGHLY important to grasp. Easyrider's example and a few others, will prove that the answer lies within the stock can. Overall...after digesting what little we have, I'd give BMC/Rotax an A+++++ & Highly Recommend Rating on Engineering Design AND thinking outside of the little fish bowl...er...box! 150 Rear Wheel HP IS in this engine...and more with internal mods. That's 165-170 @ the crank...conservative. This WILL happen before spring...publicly...as I'd wager some might have already tripped upon the advancements, yesterday. | ||
| Velocity |
Sly, do you think they are tuning the o2 on the 09 to the second or third pulse on the exhaust? I agree with you on the stock can! I for one have found out how important back pressure is to a twin. Also how much power can be gained and lost. On my 98 SI/XB drag bike it was the difference between 10.20 and a 9.70. I guess I wont change mine yet, I could make a plug and turn another bung that way I could go back no harm no foal. If you guys see no benefit then I wont waist my time. Thanks for the info. Scott | ||
| Slypiranna |
By all means...test what ever you think you need to understand, that is how we all learn and progress by but don't be surprised if you take many steps backward before moving forward. I have no idea concerning the second or third pulse question nor have I ever heard of this theory in engine design. IMO, the o2 samples the gas flow's content, not wave pulse. There is only one major sonic wave reflection, which is located right in front of the back tire...(this has nothing to do with flow or "back pressure")...the rest of the chambers within the stock can are for noise reduction. There is power to be found...thats already been proven...but it is very important to maintain the basics of the stock exhaust's design in doing so. If one is stuck with the stock ecu (2008 model)...the upper limit should be 8-10% increase in AFV's. Again, 115+ is a sign of trouble and I'd wager the exhaust valves, seats and guides will fail prematurely. If your AFV doesn't reflect a difference supportive of what ever your trying to do...then you can bet that you need to try harder! If you really need to get into the ecu for tuning, there will be some very good options available that will also be very affordable! Non of this, by the way, is recommended by me for anyone to do as all the above has warranty void written all over it. Happy tuning! | ||
| Velocity |
Sly, I have no PHD in engine design;but I do know the best way to increase cylinder fill and exhaust scavenging is to tune intake tract and exhaust tracts length to specific rpm. For the intake tract, most try to tune to the third or fourth pulse. The second pulse is the strongest pulse but due to its length which is so long its not practical. Drag racers most often use the next best thing, the third pulse. The formula is 1,120 feet per second at 60 degrees F. The length is measured from the face of the intake valve to the end to the end of the opening of the intake system(carb or stacks)the open end. Of course dyno tuning is most helpful. I was not implying that the o2 sensor measures the pulse, I guess I should have been more clear there. I was thinking about placement/temp. Thought it might equal more fuel for the front cylinder, because it would not be in the hottest spot on the pipe. There is little space to dissipate the heat. Length of the steps and diameter of pipe come into play. The most proven setup is the 2 into 1 for torque and power. In short: >Free-flowing exhaust is critical for more horsepower >Backpressure, gas velocity and pressure wave tuning are key. >Backpressure (flow) is controlled by mufflers and pipe dia. >Velocity is controlled by displacement, pipe dia. and exhaust gas temp. I am a tuber/carb or old school guy by trade, fuel injection is new so I am learning. I usually give the motor what it wants. Scott | ||
| Easyrider |
sly 150 RWHP.... mmhhhhh I keep on testing, I don't think the can is the only problem.. -; | ||
| Redscuell |
"It is proven on this platform that eliminating the "reflection point" of the stock exhaust's design will cause one or more of the following; 115.5 AFV's...meaning, out of control. (Check your's...via diag mode on the dash...if you see this, warning, you've gone too far)" OMG, why didn't Sly mention this before when I was carrying on about turbo mufflers. How embarrassed am I now?  My knowledge about m/cycles appears to be stuck in the 80s; which is the era that I got my used m/cycles from! | ||
| Jmr1283 |
easyrider, have u tested any new stuff for the air intake? i know uve mention theres some power to be had there. do u think its just the stock filter? | ||
| Easyrider |
HAllo Jmr1283, No not at the moment in this article, there are some test. I removed the airfilter, closed the airbox and took some runs without airfilter, I made a fuel map for it without a airfilter and tested with the K&N filter, Look here: http://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/artikelen.asp?aid=53 |
