| Author | Message | ||
     Tpoppa |
AMA Pro Racing weekends will also feature the new middleweight Daytona Sportbike class which will replace the AMA Supersport and AMA Formula Xtreme classes. The list of motorcycles eligible for homologation for competition in 2009 Daytona Sportbike includes: Aprilia RSV, BMW HP2 Sport, Buell 1125R, Ducati 848, Honda CBR600RR, Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R, KTM Super Duke, Suzuki GSX-R600, Triumph Daytona 675 and Yamaha YZF-R6. This is a pretty interesting mix of cycles. Any word on Buell teams? | ||
| Firstbuell |
will air-cooled Ducs & XBs will still have a class in which to race? what about V4 Aprilia [in 2010]? | ||
| Xl1200r |
They're going to allow the 1125 to race against 848's and Jap 600's? Seems kinda unfair... | ||
| Duggram |
The rules say something about over 1000 twins will have to use restrictor plates and weight more. | ||
| Trojan |
What a strange mix, and certainly not based on any normal class capacity logic. How can the 1125R be grouped with the HP2 and 848 instead of the 1098 and BMW 1000 IL4 that is due for release? Also, why is the KTM Superduke in the same class and not the RC8? The only reason I can think of is that the organisers have the same mindset as FX did when they decided to allow the XBRR to race against 600cc IL4's. Rather than doing the Buell any favours, this will do exactly the opposite. People will expect the 1125 to win against less powerful opposition, so if it wins no big deal, but if it doesn't win there will be all sorts of recriminations and mud slinging? Just put it up against equal machinery instead of these ridiculous meaningless artificially imposed class limits. | ||
| Xb984r |
Trojan,I mentioned in a thread a few months ago when these rules were first announced that the 1125 better win every race.can you imagine the 1125 getting beat by 600's and the 848 what the mags will say?You will find most on here approve of these new rules,we know why. (Message edited by xb984r on October 29, 2008) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Maybe there's some form of handicapping involved? Weight, HP limit, etc. | ||
| Tpoppa |
http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/pdf/2009_AMA_P ro_Road_Race_Program.pdf Here are the regulations for 2009. | ||
| Ponti1 |
Unless I missed it in the rules, I don't think there was any provision for HP limitations. Just seemed to be minimum weight limit and minor modifications from stock. Also, I thought Daytona SportBike was replacing SuperSport? They are both still listed, and 1125R is an eligible participant in each... | ||
| Trojan |
I thought that the idea behind DMG's take over was to simplify the racing formats so that 'non-motorcycling' spectators could understand what was going on and increase spectator attendances? Now we have Daytona Superbike, American Sportbike, Supersport and Moto GT, which as far as I can see all allow the same motley mix of bikes to compete. A Ducati 848, Aprilia RSV1000 or Buell 1125R would all qualify for 3 out of 4 classes at least, so how is Joe Public going to tell the difference between them. What is the dfference between AMA Sportbike and Supersport? The Same bikes of varying capacities appear to be homologated for both classes, so what is the difference to the spectator? It is already confusing enough that they will allow 600's to race 1125's against 848's against RSV1000's in the same race, and now they have three classes featuring almost exactly the same bikes! The biggest selling sportsbikes in the world (1000cc Superbikes) get a warmed over Superstock class that looks as exciting as watching porridge congeal, and allows no technical innovation whatsoever. No wonder the top riders are forming an orderly queue to jump ship to WSB  I've seen club racing that has more imginative and exciting variation in race classes than this. Surely the old fashioned Superbike, Supersport, Superstock rules were much clearer? | ||
| 4cammer |
Once again the only "AMA" racing that I will watch this year will be Flat Track. Springfield Illinois in May and August is the best place to be to see a bike race. And maybe a Moto-ST race if I can get to one or see one on the tele, but they can keep the bikes w/I-4's. | ||
| José_quiñones |
It's not that hard to figure out: Red Bull Rookies: 13 to 17 year olds on spec 125cc KTM's Supersport: 17 to 21 year olds on closer to stock versions of the bikes eligible for Daytona Sportbike, on spec tires and fuel. Can only stay in this class for three years before moving on any of the following classes: Daytona Sportbike: A mix of the old Formula Extreme and Supersport classes on spec tires and fuel. No age restrictions for the riders. No dyno for the bikes, but minimum weights. Moto GT: three hour endurance races for Twin and 600 cc IL4's multi-rider teams divided into two classes: bikes below 90 hp, and bikes between 90 to 130 hp. Spec tires and fuel. No age restrictions for the riders. Dynos and weight scales for the bikes (3 pound per hp ratio maximum). American Superbike: Somewhere between the old Superstock and Superbike rules. Spec tires and fuel. No age restrictions for the riders. No dyno for the bikes, but minimum weights. The same bikes that you will see racing in FIM Superstock or any of the other National championships will be eligible. From the fans perspective, you will see a clear difference in rider skill and speed from class to class. I'm sure AMA will use some of the same things they used in MotoST (number plate colors, etc) so fans will know what class they are watching. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on October 31, 2008) | ||
| Trojan |
From the fans perspective, you will see a clear difference in rider skill and speed from class to class. No you won't. Trying to compare rider skills and speeds from two diferent races would be almost impossible. These two classes will look, sound and feel identical to a spectator sitting in the grandstand and will be absolutely indistinguishable when watching on TV. Lap times will be within 1 or 2 seconds for all classes probably, so won't be noticeable watching from the grandstands either. Just fitting different colour number boards won't make the classes any more unique either. If the only difference is the rider age and a few technical regs, why not just run them all in the same race but with different colour numbers to differentiate the classes? Spectators who are not 'bike savvy' won't be able to tell the difference between a 90bhp IL4 and a 120bhp IL4 of the same make/model, and if rider age is really the only substantial difference between Superstock and Daytona Sportbike what difference will that make to the spectator experience? I can tell you the answer to that one already....none (it has already been tried over here in the Triumph 675 cup). All you will have is two identical classes that the spectators can't tell the difference. As for 'American Superbike', that is just an emasculated Superstock series that will probably produce comparable (or even slower) lap times than Sportbike. Hardly a 'Blue Riband' class that people can aspire to and be the headline act on a Sunday afternoon is it? The point is, the DMG takeover was supposed to breath new life into the AMA series and attract more spectators. Nothing in these rules appears to address either issue but has just confused and mixed up a whole melting pot of classes to make each class even more indistinguishable from the next. The list of homologated machines may look varied now, but you can bet your bottonm dolar that the top teams willuse the most competitive machinery available, and that will almost certainly be a 600cc IL4 rather than the other bikes listed. There may be a couple of Buells/RSV's etc but the substantial part of the grid will be made up of identikit 600's in 3 of the 4 classes. Paying spectators will be treated to 3 races of identical machinery (except for minor technical regs that are invisible to the spectator anyway), followed by a mediocre semi-superstock finale  The only saving grace of the whole series is the Red Bull rookies, but I'm sure given time that DMG can •••• that up as well. | ||
| Smoke |
waiting to see what teams and riders are going to participate. the rules allow a large mix but i think Matt is right about the majority being on IL 4's. i'm not to excited about next season in the AMA. tim | ||
| Cobralightning |
Why mix Sport Twins with IL4's? That only adds to the confusion. You could almost get rid of the St class, since the 1125 can compete in other classes. | ||
| José_quiñones |
That was precisely the problem with the existing classes, nobody could tell them apart. The qualifying and race lap times between Supestock/Superbike and Supersport/FormulaExtreme were way too close, go back and look them up. The new classes are way better from that perspective, they should produce bigger differences in lap times between classes and closer lap times and racing within each class. Believe me, if you ever sat through an AMA event for the last eight years, these new classes will be a clear improvement. Finally, if you took the 2008 and proposed 2009 rules and actually READ them, you would clearly see that the 2009 American Superbike specs are less restrictive than the 2008 Superstock Rules. If anything affects the lap times, it will be the spec tires and fuel, not the chassis/engine rules. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on October 31, 2008) | ||
| Ponti1 |
Guess we will have to wait and see...Looking at the guideline document, I don't see any improvement in classes other than Buell is now eligible for more of them. I agree that the existing classes were too similar, but am not sure at this point in what way they are now more diversified between classes. Just seems to be a wider range of bikes within the individual classes. At least there is more chance in 2009 to see podium finishers that aren't riding a GSXR. At least THAT will be a welcome change... | ||
| Trojan |
At least there is more chance in 2009 to see podium finishers that aren't riding a GSXR. At least THAT will be a welcome change... You're right in that respect, simply because the GSXR range is due for a major revamp soon and won't be as competitive as it has been so far, especially now that Ben Spies has defected to WSB and Yamaha. Next year I would expect to see superbike podiums (In pretty much every major national/international Superbike series)full of Yamaha R1's & Honda CBR1000R's instead, with the occasional Ducati 1098 thrown in for good measure in WSB. I think that, given the new AMA rules, the bike to beat in almost all new AMA classes will be the Triumph 675, and if I had to choose a bike to begin the new season with as a team manager then that would be the one  It has shown in both British and World Supersport competition (It won the British Supersport championship this year)that it is competitive with the top Jap 600 race bikes, and has the added advantage of more torque and extra capacity for no extra weight disadvantage. | ||
| Jaimec |
Mladin is still with the factory Suzuki team... why would you think he will be any less competitive in 2009?? | ||
| Ponti1 |
Mladin is still with the factory Suzuki team... why would you think he will be any less competitive in 2009?? Whatever. Mladin's an old, washed up has-been and would be better off racing lawn tractors...KIDDING! Seriously, I was not taking anything away from Mladin or implying he was no longer a contender for 1st. I was referring to the fact that we will be much less likely to see 1-2-3 be all Suzuki going forward. | ||
| Jaimec |
I suspect that unless Mat gets "pushed" this year the same way Spies pushed him, he'll likely retire at the end of the year. GREAT analysis of the rivalry here: http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ama-sbk-the -last-dance/ | ||
| Chadhargis |
I suspect that barring mechanical issues or crashes, Mladin will win every race. You KNOW the Suzuki wasn't THAT much better than the Honda, Yamaha, and Kawasaki. Heck, Honda is a HUGE company with lots of dollars and most likely fielded a top notch bike. Just look at MotoGP. Rossi wins on a Honda. Jumps over to Yamaha and wins on a Yamaha. It's not the arrow, it's the indian. Mladin COULD pilot a tractor and still win the dang race. He's THAT good. | ||
| Jaimec |
In AMA Superbike the way I understand it, ONLY Suzuki was running a FULL Factory effort. Yamaha, Kawasaki and Honda just counted on their American arm for support and decided to put their resources behind World Superbike and MotoGP instead. Remember the complaints Michael Jordan had about getting his Suzukis up to speed so they'd be comparable to the bikes Spies and Mladin rode? I suspect the real competition next year will be for second place, otherwise little else will change. | ||
| Trojan |
IF Mladin continues to race for Suzuki next year then he will of course be a big factor in theri success if they win. However, my point about Suzuki not dominating next year was that the other manufacturers now have newer and more powerful toys in their box than Suzuki has, and even with the money and effort that Yoshimura put into the team it may not be enough to fend off the newer bikes next year. Having said that, all the decent riders have pretty much buggered off anyway, so who is going to threaten Mladin in 2009? Looking at the quote from the MIC regarding the AMA class structure it would appear that they are not exactly enthusiastically 'on board' yet either. Earlier today, AMA Pro Racing (a.k.a. Daytona Motorsports Group, or DMG) announced the latest and likely final version of its 2009 professional road racing class structure. The announcement included a quote from AMA Pro Racing President Roger Edmondson that read, in part, “We were fortunate to have the assistance of many stakeholders in the creation of the program, including the Motorcycle Industry Council (MIC).” Asked to comment, MIC President Tim Buche told Roadracingworld.com, “I don’t have a comment at this time and will let what AMA has announced settle. I think a number of companies will respond to that, and those responses would determine any next steps MIC would make. “Obviously the manufacturers have something they can now consider, and once they’ve made their determinations that would set any course of action for us going forward.” | ||
| Ebear |
Aren't the modern 600's...at least the rr versions putting out between 120 and 130 hp now???? |
