| Author |
Message |
    
Spike
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 09:44 am: | 
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Hi guys,
I'm having trouble diagnosing a pinging problem on my '04 XB12R.
I bought the bike new in October of '03 and have put over 30k miles on it with no pinging issues. In December of '07 I traded the bike in on a Ulysses, but then I bought it back in May of '08. It was owned by the dealer during that time and only accumulated a couple hundred miles. When I first bought the bike back I was working from home and not riding much, just weekend rides on backroads. The bike seemed to be running fine on those rides. I started a new job a few months ago and have been using the bike for commuting to work since early September. Since then the bike has started to ping under certain conditions. It will ping under part throttle (10%-60%) acceleration with a light load. It will almost stop pinging if I roll the throttle all the way open. It will do this even when ambient temperatures are relatively cool--yesterday it was pinging when it was only ~60 degrees outside. It has done this through several tanks of fuel purchased from various gas stations around the area, so I don't think it's a problem of fuel quality.
I've done a few things in attempt to cure the pinging, but so far none seem to have helped.
I ran marvel mystery oil through the fuel system, and seafoam through the fuel system as well as the intake per the directions on the bottle. I replaced the spark plugs (10R12AG). I also checked for intake leaks. Since none of those helped, I tried adjusting the TFI settings (1st pot 2-5, 2nd pot 1-5, 3rd pot 3-6, 4th pot 6:30-8:15). Even when giving the bike too much fuel with the TFI, the bike still pings.
The bike is currently has 35k miles on it and is running a stock ECM, dobeck TFI (3, 5, 4, 8), open airbox, K&N filter, and a Drummer.
Static timing was set a few years ago and it does not appear that it was adjusted during the time that the dealership owned it.
The bike does not appear to be overheating or running hot. The fan still seems to be working normally and with the weather recently it runs infrequently. Yesterday after my ~60 degree ride home from work I let the bike idle in the garage until the fan came on--it took approximately 5 minutes. The bike will ping even when the fan isn't running.
The new commute is not overly hostile. It's ~28 miles each way with some stop and go traffic, but nothing excessive.
I'm hoping to find someone locally with ECMspy so I can do some further diagnostics, but in the meantime I'm running out of ideas. At this point I'm suspecting it may be a bad sensor (o2, IAT?) but I don't have any way to verify that.
Any suggestions? |
Bikerjim99
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 10:00 am: |
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ECMSPY will be the diagonostic tool you need. Just a possibility, are you sure you have good premium fuel? If you buy at the same station everytime, perhaps there is a problem with the fuel there. You could try an octane booster, perhaps it would show up. |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 10:28 am: |
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Mike, Do you have a way to check the timing? I know you said it hadn't been adjust, but it may have drifted by itself.
As to the sensors, I believe U4euh has cross references to the equivalent Ford parts, which are much cheaper. You might just want to replace them to eliminate that as a possibility. |
Zxzer04
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 11:49 am: |
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Hey Mike if you remember I was having the same problem, and I had Ray Price advance the timing a couple degrees which helped a lot, but didn't totally fix it. Larry |
Aptbldr
| | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 05:35 pm: |
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Do XB's combustion chambers "carbon-up", raising compression ratio? |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 06:20 am: |
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Marvel Mystery Oil?
Is this stuff specifically compatible with O2 sensors?
Sound like your O2 sensor has some issues. |
Spike
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 05:19 pm: |
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Marvel Mystery Oil and Sea Foam are both oxygen sensor safe. Both are known to remove carbon buildup, which is what I suspected was causing the pinging.
Here are pictures of the plugs that were removed from the bike:
The darker plug is from the front cylinder. Usually I'd say uneven discoloration like this is indicative of an intake leak, but I wasn't able to find one when checking with carb cleaner around the intake seals. It's possible I wasn't thorough enough the first time I checked, so I may check again. Also, I know that the dealer flooded the bike badly when they had it, so I was assuming that the discoloration was from the one heavily fouled plug. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 02:04 am: |
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Try swapping front and rear injectors and see if the resultant dark plug coloration follows to the rear plug after about a 1000 miles or so. |
Spike
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 07:58 am: |
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Update:
Last night I checked again for an intake leak. This time I removed the left and right air scoops (along with the airbox base plate as before) to get a better shot at the intake seals. Despite spraying them with carb cleaner multiple times from every angle I couldn't hear any significant change in idle. If there is an intake leak, I'm unable to find it.
Also, I heard the bike ping a little while leaving a stoplight this morning despite it being ~47 degrees out. Aside from the pinging the bike is actually running really good, so I'd like to get this sorted out. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 09:28 am: |
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Sparky,
That wouldn't be a good idea... The front and rear injectors have different part numbers, with different spray patterns (likely mirror image).
But your logic is otherwise sound. If I had to guess, I'd bet that your rear injector nozzles are a bit varnished up, causing the rear to run a bit lean. The AFV may be creeping up a bit, causing the front to run a bit rich. The fact that the bike was likely parked for an extended period supports this, as that can often cause injector nozzles to clog slightly.
You might be able to get it better by adding some fuel injector cleaner to the tank.
But you should check the static timing, they might have messed with it when you didn't own the bike.
(Message edited by al_lighton on October 27, 2008) |
Spike
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2008 - 02:40 pm: |
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quote:You might be able to get it better by adding some fuel injector cleaner to the tank.
Any recommendations on what to use? I had figured that the MMO and sea foam would have taken care of any fuel system cleaning. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 09:34 am: |
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Not really. Frankly, I don't hold much hope for a chemical solution if the injector nozzles are varnished up. I've never had a whole lot of success with fuel tank additives for fixing "carburation" issues. Mostly I've had to resort to some level of disassembly to clear the offending passage.
I'd remove the injector and soak the nozzle end of it in carb/injector cleaner, and give that whirl. No guarantee that this is the problem to begin with, but it's a reasonable guess. |
Spike
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 12:38 pm: |
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Yesterday the weather turned out colder than expected and I got caught in some bad traffic on the way home, so between the two I was able to gather some new data.
It was in the upper 40s when I was stuck in traffic, but after significant time spent idling (~10 minutes) the fan came on. Also, the bike continued to idle normally despite sitting in traffic with the fan running for another ~10 minutes or so. Based on that I'm making the assumptions that the fan is working normally and that the bike is not prone to overheating.
When I finally got out of the traffic and rolled into the throttle the bike started to ping as expected. What caught my attention was that after riding at a steady speed for a few minutes and then having to slow down and accelerate again I was unable to make the bike ping, despite the bike still being hot enough for the fan to run.
Previously I observed that the bike would ping even when the bike was not hot enough to trigger the fan.
So, the bike is prone to pinging after any time spent idling yet pings irrespective of the actual engine temperature (as determined by the fan).
This leads me to believe that the pinging is not caused by some physical problem (overheating, static timing, clogged injector) but is instead caused by something in the injection system not properly compensating for the heat soak from time spent idling or some other condition caused by idling. I don't yet know what that might be. |
Sparky
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 03:54 pm: |
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The other sensor related to temperature is the Intake Air Temp sensor in the base of the airbox.
If you haven't cleaned this, especially if you haven't routed the crank vent hoses somewhere else, gently clean it with isopropyl alcohol or other approved cleaning agent. Be very careful to not bend it as you don't want to damage its wire insulation.
Not sure what effects cleaning it may do though if it just has oil residue. But if it's covered with black soot, that may affect its thermal response which could send misleading data to the ECM. I'm thinking that if a black body (sensor) absorbs heat more readily than one not black, could that possibly throw off its calibration to real air temperature and adversely affect fuel/air metering? |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2008 - 11:20 pm: |
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Here is what I have found with my 07 Bolt.
I have removed the ET sensor and wrapped the cable in thermo tape, reinstalled it with a little electric grease on the threads( to maintain the earth connection) and then slid one of those thermo line covers used in drag cars for fuel and ignition lines over the cable as well.
Thus far no pinging and very little heat soak. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 01:13 am: |
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Al's third rule of motorcycle mechanic's, as it pertains to Buells, is that every problem is the head temp sensor until proven otherwise.
You would be amazed at how many problems have been solved by swapping in a new head temp sensor. And more times than not, there was no code thrown. I swear those devices are possessed.
Al |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 01:36 pm: |
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I've learned to ignore Al's rules at my peril.
Do we have an easy test for the head sensor? An ohm or volt reading under predictable circumstances?
(it's probably in my manual, but its at home and I am at work...) |
Spike
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2008 - 04:56 pm: |
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A test procedure for the CHT sensor would be nice. Ray Price HD/Buell has one in stock, but for $42 I'd prefer to know mine is broken before I replace it. I'll have to dig through the service manual when I get home.
The IAT sensor is only $14, so that one is cheap enough to replace on a hunch. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 01:13 am: |
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I've seen very few IAT sensor failures, and BUNCHES of head temp sensor failures.
I dissected one after it failed strangely, and found the wires severed inside. But the potting was still good, the plastic/rubber insulation was still good, and the fiberglass sleeve was still bonded to the epoxy potting. There was no external indication of a failure.
Inside the sensor, the wire is crimped into a little fitting. On the SENSOR side of that crimp, all the wires were broken. They were touching each other, and in many wire positions, the sensor was "fine". But with wire wiggle, it was intermittent.
So I don't trust static readings of that sensor. Any reading you make should be accompanied by some wire strain to reveal any internal breaks.
Me, I just keep a known good one around and swap it in when I suspect a problem. If it doesn't fix the problem, I leave it in and keep the removed one around until the next time I have a problem. If it does fix it, I throw the old one away, regardless of how good it looks.
Al |
Spike
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2008 - 07:49 am: |
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Al,
The service manual lists a special tool for removing the cylinder head temp sensor. Is the special tool required? I haven't tried to remove mine yet. |
Al_lighton
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 03:20 am: |
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Yea, you need a 1/2 inch deep dish socket with a slot cut up the side for the wire. We just started stocking those today, but if you have a dremel tool or cutoff saw, it isn't hard to make one. Gimme a call if you need one, I don't have them up on the web site yet.
Al |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, October 31, 2008 - 10:02 am: |
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Al, Have researched a number of sensor replacements with none thus far having the same output at temperature intersections.
What I have notice though is a common thread with regards the cable they use.
It is rated to 200 deg C.
This is a common standard I am told and I am beginning to wonder whether it is the sensor or the cable that is the weak link.
As I have posted above, wrapping/insulating the cable appears to reduce issues on my old sensor assembly.
I now have another new one to install and am of the opinion that with correct shielding it may well last the distance.
Time will tell. |
Spike
| | Posted on Thursday, October 29, 2009 - 01:58 pm: |
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Stumbled across this thread while doing some searching, figured I'd bring it back with an update.
I ended up replacing the intake air temperature sensor and the cylinder head temperature sensor. I also put the stock exhaust back on the bike and installed the 2007 fuel/ignition maps. I checked and rechecked the static timing. The pinging would still occur under certain circumstances.
I figured the pinging had to be caused by an intake leak so I pulled the intake out of the bike last week. I discovered that the intake valve on the front cylinder had a lot of carbon build-up. The only thing I know of that puts that much carbon on top of an intake valve is a bad valve guide seal. I currently have the top end pulled off the bike and I expect that once the seal is replaced and the excess carbon is cleaned off the pinging will be gone. |
Dualsportdad
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2014 - 12:13 am: |
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Spike did cleaning the valve and replacing the seal fix the bike? |
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