| Author |
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Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 09:01 pm: | 
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I sincerely hope I'm wrong but it might have been simpler and cheaper to drill three holes into your ECM.
At this point, it doesn't matter anymore. You can't do anything until you buy new parts (look at the manual, pretty sure there's some parts still inside the tank) and reassemble everything.
Hopefully, it'll run smoothly and you'll be able to say "told you so".
I just can't help looking at your first pic and seeing the AIT sensor shining away and wondering what would have happened if you had checked its history.... |
Brumbear
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 09:26 pm: |
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The one thing I keep thinking about here is that the pump makes varying sounds I know the pump is either on or off the pressure reg does its job so the ECM should only tell it to turn on and off. So I would opt to a pump or voltage problem I hate to ask this but did you check voltage because when my battery was going bad when I turned on the key I would get no pump hum until it started then after the initial start up it was fine |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 10:09 pm: |
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#1. "The ECM uses six sensors to give info to the fuel pump."
That is flatout WRONG.
The pump accepts NO info. ONLY 12 volts. That's it. Nothing else. The ECM only knows if the pump is taking the 12 volts or not. That's it nothing else. It's a pump. Not a computer. All it does make fuel pressure, and a constant 59-61 PSI at that.
#2. Don't buy a pump, and stop sweating.
That "teabag" is flatout TOAST. When you see the new one, you're gonna shit little green apples. Even moderately dirty, they're a medium piss-yellow color, and that one's flatout BROWN.
Replace it, and I'll bet your symptoms get ALOT better, if not gone completely. I would also flush that tank with fresh clean fuel, and if you buy at the same place every time, find a new place.
Oh, and low fuel has no effect on AFV. Used to be (in tuber world, actually), if you ran OUT of gas, it would whack your AFV into orbit. But they've fixed that on XB's. The good-to-the-last-drop design (the teabag is actually a pre-filter, and is at the extreme bottom of the tank) ensures that fuel is in good supply to pump (which cools and lubricates with fuel, remember) until there's no fuel left. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 10:13 pm: |
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I honestly don't remember, but I am hoping that Buell sells the filter sock (err, teabag), seperately, without a pump.
And, there's nothing else in the tank except the vent up on top. Your fuel level sender is the small silver can with a single black wire coming out it.
I'm not sure about that black clip specifically, but i think it may just be an alignment guide. Where specifically was it on the assembly? |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 - 10:53 pm: |
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The DDFI system uses six sensors to monitor the operating conditions of the engine and make decisions as to spark and fuel delivery.
From the manual. Sloppy wording on my part. Still, it's an on/off situation and yours was on. Therefore, not a problem.
Anyway, the manual calls the teabag a "fuel screen" and replaceable.
Honestly hoping Jos is right. |
Buell_41
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:23 am: |
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Jos, the black clip thing is part of the fitting on the intake nozzle. I know what you mean about alignment giudes and unfortunately it's not one of those. It's good to know that I've uncovered at least one actual problem. Thanks for all the help and I'll see if buell can sell me just the filter. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 07:56 am: |
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"Intake Nozzle"?
There is only one intake, and it's inside your, um, teabag....
So, where exactly are you calling the "intake Nozzle"?
Not trying to belabor the point, but let's assume the intake screen is, for example, 90% blocked.
Then that would be one of the many possible scenarios where the pump is on, but volume OR pressure is insufficient. In this case, it would probably have low pressure, but enough to run at idle, and not enough volume to run down the road.
There's actually more to a fuel pump than "on or off". |
Buell_41
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 01:37 pm: |
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What I thought was the nozzle is the round zinc/copper colored part at the top of the pump with a hole in the middle... The third from last and last picture show what I'm talking about. I guess I thought since that one is "higher" in the tank, that is was the main intake. If there's another one down by the screen, maybe the difference between the two is the reserve or once the top one isn't picking up gas, the fuel light comes on and you're in "reserve". It might mean that all the crap in the gas just collects down there. Hm, kinna explains why it barely ran when it was in reserve. If that lower intake was blocked... that would explain the stumbling off idle I was experiencing.... hmmm... it wasn't so much running out of gas like I thought, but it just couldn't pull it through the filter... |
Xl_cheese
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 02:31 pm: |
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I used to have a lot of studdering and poor running symptoms just as my low fuel light owuld come on. I replaced my fuel pump with an 06 model and the problem was fixed 100 percent. The newer pumps are definately built differently. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 07:35 pm: |
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Not trying to belabor the point, but let's assume the intake screen is, for example, 90% blocked.
Then that would be one of the many possible scenarios where the pump is on, but volume OR pressure is insufficient. In this case, it would probably have low pressure, but enough to run at idle, and not enough volume to run down the road.
There's actually more to a fuel pump than "on or off".
So, back to the earlier point about a fuel pump's complex interaction within the fuel delivery system.
(And there's that assumption thing again.)
Wouldn't the scenario you just described trigger a "code 33"?
Buell 41 was going to do a fuel pressure test. Was that actually done?} |
Buell_41
| | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 10:26 pm: |
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no I didn't do it but after seeing that the LOWER intake was blocked it probably would have tested find on anything more than half a tank... |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 08:39 pm: |
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that there is only one intake, which is at the screen.
The larger opening is the pressure regulator and it looks like there should be some other parts attached.
I'm not sure the "dirty" screen is a problem. (Well, yours is ripped now so it is.) I'd look at what was discolouring it but we don't know the original colour. There four on ebay right now and they're all that colour. After all, we're dealing with an aluminum tank not a steel one.
If we had done the diagnostics, we would not be saying "probably would have". We would have some facts.
Most of the proposed scenarios would have triggered codes and you said there were none.
Anyway, get your screen and put the pump and bike back together and see where we are. |
Hogs
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 09:01 pm: |
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Could be a 2 part problem ... like if it was a electrical problem ..but the ecm didn`t set a fault... Like a Coil that works good for awhile...But sometimes when they get HOT they start to break down and when they sit and cooled off and go at it again they work good for awhile...Until Hot again and then go South again..Just a thought... |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Friday, October 17, 2008 - 10:47 pm: |
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There is a sensor in the later pumps for low fuel level pressure regulation.
Not sure how fuel level would change the pressure but it may have something to do with the temp of the fuel/frame as the fuel gets lower and also the aeration/bubbles in the fuel as the pressure regulation bypasses the excess back to tank.
Also, I am with the thought that the pre filter needs replacing badly.
This little fellow may well be the cause of most of your bad running problems.
The chaffing of the wires I referred to is actually where the wires are secured to the pump inside the frame. The alloy section where they rest has been known to rub on them and cause a short inside the tank. This results in bad running sometimes and in others the blowing of the engine fuse altogether. The important thing to remember with this if it has occurred to your bike......DO NOT POWER UP THE BIKE WITH THE PUMP ATTACHED ANYWHERE NEAR FUEL OR WITH IT IN THE BIKE WITH THE TANK CAP OFF. It would not take much to ignite an air/fuel mixture when it is outside of its usual environment.
(Message edited by Bombardier on October 17, 2008) |
Skinstains
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 08:47 pm: |
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That tea-bag is beat ! I wouldn't be at all suprised if it was your only problem. If you do replace the pump make sure it is the new up-dated model. You don't want an earlier model as they have been changed significantly for the better. |
Skinstains
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 08:50 pm: |
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Where do you purchase your fuel ? What grade do you buy ? I only buy from the big boys and I only buy premium. I believe there is a diference and don't want to argue over it. If there is none then I at least get piece of mind for my extra money. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 09:26 pm: |
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The original statement seems to indicate that Buell41 has a habit of riding to empty. Not sure if it is the case, but it reads like this is pretty well every time.
I would consider this a bad habit. Not so much with an aluminum tank, as opposed to a steel one, but still not a good thing.
I don't think the sock/sleeve is the issue, but it is a remote possibility. In any case, the above practice will force the sediment into the sleeve, more than usual, and cause blockage.
As much as possible, I only use Sunoco Gold. I also believe in that difference. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:03 pm: |
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Sigh....
#1. There is ONLY ONE FUEL INLET TO THE PUMP.
It's in the sock/teabag. Since the dawn of XB time, and to the dusk of XB time. You might be looking at the fuel return outlet.
#2. New Sock/teabags are white or light yellow. They're nylon. They're soft. They flow. What you have now does not.
#3 (Again) The pump doesn't "know" squat, and therefore cannot tell the ECM, which is what decides which codes to throw, what is going on. It's either ON, or OFF, and if it's OFF when it's s'posed to be ON, you get CODES. The ECM does NOT know if the fuel pressure is where it HAS to be for the bike to run properly.
ONLY the fuel pressure regulator affects fuel pressure, not the ECM.
#4 Just because the XB has an aluminum tank doesn't mean fuel isn't stored in some 50-year-old rusting leaking EPA nightmare before you pour it in.
The symptoms you describe, the lack of codes, the high AFV, and filthy sock ALL point to the same conclusion, and it's where I'd start if a customer brought it to me. I'll be amazed if the problems persist after this. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 10:12 pm: |
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Ah, but respectfully, you wouldn't have seen the sock until much later in the diagnostic process. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Saturday, October 18, 2008 - 11:31 pm: |
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It would've been one of the first things to look for.
Of course, one of the first things I would check with the symptoms he'd described would be fuel pressure. Which would, via diagnostic procedure, lead pretty much straight to the sock. (Like, check out the fourth post in this thread)
We'll see if that fixes it. I could be entirely wrong, too! |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 12:34 am: |
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Jos51700, maybe you can help me with this. I can't seem to reconcile these two statements. What am I missing?
'05 Firebolt Manual, section 4-24:
Fuel Pump
The fuel pump assembly is shown in Figure 4-51. ECM Pin 3
provides ground to the fuel pump. Code 33 will set if:
•BN/Y wire is shorted to 12 volts. This will also cause the
ignition fuse to blow. See Figure 4-38.
•BN/Y wire is shorted to ground. This will cause the fuel
pump to run continuously even when the motor is not
running.
•Fuel pump motor stalls or spins without providing fuel
pressure.
Yours above:
#3 (Again) The pump doesn't "know" squat, and therefore cannot tell the ECM, which is what decides which codes to throw, what is going on. It's either ON, or OFF, and if it's OFF when it's s'posed to be ON, you get CODES. The ECM does NOT know if the fuel pressure is where it HAS to be for the bike to run properly.
ONLY the fuel pressure regulator affects fuel pressure, not the ECM.
Code 33 isn't going to cover all the scenarios we have seen here but it does cover wires shorting out and stalling pumps resulting from clogged filters.
And, yes, fuel pressure test shows up in the diagnostics for several codes but a fuel pressure problem is not a code in itself. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 12:20 pm: |
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Sure 'Ting!
(A quick note. I pulled this illustration from the '03 XB9R book, and some lines aren't great, so precise locations may be incorrect. I've tried to make them more visible. Also, your model may vary)
The diagnostic section isn't referring to "spins without providing fuel pressure" as a stalling issue due to plugged filters. It's referring to a pump that is spinning, but isn't under any load (picture an XB12R running at 4000 RPM, in gear, clutch out, and the drive belt is broken)
We can break it down even further. So, we will!
Note: ALL circuits need four components: power, ground, load, and connection between the other three.
If we look at the illustration for the fuel pump circuit, we see all the parts we need. ECM, pump, relays, wires, etc. It's all there, except the one key part we'd need for the ECM to really know what's going on: A fuel pressure sending unit.
If we look at the pump, we see, typically, three wires, sometimes four. I say "typically" because XBRR's lacked fuel level sending units, so they only had two wires. One of our three wires is the aforementioned fuel level sender. It actually works in reverse! The positive side goes to the lamp, then to the "sender", and the sender is the "ground" side of the circuit. It houses a thermister, which is a device that varies it's resistance with heat. The fuel cools it. Now, I honestly don't know which method works for the XB, but it can go one of two ways:
#1. The thermister builds up heat internally, and after it's uncovered, it's resistance changes to light the light, or,
#2. The fuel gets hot (as we've all felt the tank walls after a spirited ride, and noticed warmth), and after it get's low enough, the fuel heats to a point that the thermister offers enough ground to complete the circuit, thereby lighting the light.
This "grounding" is a gradual process, and that's why the light comes on slowly.
On some models, we'll see an additional wire. This is the ground for the pump assembly body. The pump motor ground is isolated from that.
So that takes care of the first, and occasionally second wire. Now, we notice we still have two wires from our pump. One of these is ground, and one is power. The ECM is a delicate piece of electronics. It's not real good at high-amperage stuff. So, we send our pump constant power from another source, and let the ECM control the ground. This is handy. The ECM doesn't have to be mega-built to carry lots of load, but it still gets to be in charge of things. You'll notice it has two ground connections in the illustration, and this is why. Without a good ground (And multiple grounds for redundancy), it is rendered inoperable.
This explains why the Brown/Yellow wire, the ECM control wire to the pump, will make the pump run nonstop when it's unintentionally grounded. The grounding takes place outside the ECM, and the ECM is no longer in control of the pump. Since the Brown/Yellow wire is "hot", this is why it pops the fuses if it shorts to power. So there's the first two "issues" of code 33, explained.
The ECM can do a few things besides make the bike go. It can allow power to the pump, it can kill power to the pump, and it can moniter power to the pump. This is the answer to your questions, and the third part of the code 33 quandary.
If the ECM detects excessive load, or not enough load, it toss up our old friend, code 33. Think back to our buddy, the XB12R with a missing belt, mentioned earlier, to help get a visual image of the pump running with no load (a sheared shaft for example).
Now, if we were to COMPLETELY plug the inlet port, the pump motor load would go through the roof, and code 33 would begin taunting us. However, in the bike in this thread, it's still getting fuel, and enough to run, but just not enough to run right. There's not enough restriction for 33 to blink it's way into our hearts, and the bike has no way to monitor the actual fuel pressure, so, except for AFV, it has NO way to know what's happening. The AFV is in it's normal range, so the ECM has no idea that anything at all is wrong, and it continues plugging away in the usual fashion.
There. (Whew!)
Is that better? |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 03:03 pm: |
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Cool, nicely detailed explanation, thanks. Appreciated the bit about the pump staying on when there's a problem.
We'll have to wait and see what the outcome is. I think we can agree that it would have been a better idea to run some of the basic (easier) diagnostics first. I would want to be a whole lot more certain before I remove/install a pump.
Thanks again. |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 03:11 pm: |
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Ha, got another question for you, off topic for this thread but I asked it on another.
What happens with a low fuel level sensor failure? Almost sounds like it will fail "on" which at least lets you know there's a problem before you have to walk home. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 05:24 pm: |
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Depends on the failure, of course, but if a wire rubs through to ground, it does fail "on". A cut wire would be "off", and a sensor failure could go either way.
The most common problem with them I've seen is coming on early, or falsely.
I just watch odometers, myself. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 01:59 am: |
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Item 7 on the page 4-116 says that there is a Low fuel pressure regulator.
This is triggered by the low fuel level sensor yes?
Does the ecm change the ignition/fuel table to accomodate the different fuel pressure at the low level then? |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 08:50 am: |
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You need to specify what book you're looking in.
Unless the pump inlet is uncovered, low fuel does not change the pressure. Unless they've added them for '08, there is no fuel pressure sensor on an XB Buell.
LOL IT'S A MISPRINT.
Look at the next illustration. Item 7 in figure 4-99, "Low fuel pressure regulator", on the next illustration, becomes (More accurately so) Item 4 on Figure 4-100: Low Fuel Level Sensor.
It's even the same photo! |
Iamarchangel
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 03:55 pm: |
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But there is a pressure regulator, right?
It's only to prevent a pressure buildup in the pump itself and has nothing to do with the amount of fuel in the tank.
Jos, you can tell us more about that, please and thank you. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 10:10 pm: |
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The pressure regulator doesn't affect pressure in the pump, it's job is to supply BOTH constant fuel pressure, and fixed pressure (49 PSI, which I mis-stated earlier) to the fuel lines, and in turn to the fuel rail, and in turn to the fuel injectors.
It is this pressure that "injects" the fuel when the injectors open.
The regulator is typically a spring, and a diaphragm, and the spring pops open when the pump pressure exceeds the preset limit. I can't say 100% for XB regulators, because I've never disassembled one, but I'd be amazed if it were any different.
The regulator is required because pump output is not constant. We've all heard the pumps speed up or slow down from time to time. Anything from engine speed to battery voltage will affect the pressure that the pump puts out.
I have an electric fuel pump on my car, and the pump speeds up and slows down in time when I have the turn signals on. Since pump pressure can't easily be constant, we install a pump that constantly puts out more than we need, and limit it via the regulator.
When the spring opens, it routes excess fuel from the fuel line back in to the fuel tank. FI Buells do all of this "in-tank" (and you can hear the fuel splashing if you take the cap off and run the bike when the fuel level is low), but early HD's and some cars use a regulator somewhere else in the system (Usually on the end of the fuel rail) and have a separate return line running back to the tank.
Fuel pressure varies a little bit, because each time the injectors open, the pressure drops a little, so you'll see variances in the pressure when you rev the bike. This is why the manual lists dual specs: 46-52 psi or 49 psi (ideal) depending on where you look.
The aftermarket (for race cars and such) offers adjustable fuel pressure regulators. These come in handy on some Speed-density fuel injection systems (Only '08 XB's and 1125's use Speed-density, earlier XB's use Alpha-N EFI) and on non-naturally aspirated (turbo/supercharged) engines. I kind of regret saying that adjustable regulators are out there, because now someone will feel obligated to install one on their Buell, for no reason at all whatsoever. Some regulators are manually adjustable, and some will vary fuel pressure based on atmospheric pressure.
If the pressure regulator fails in it's job duty, it will conversely affect engine air-fuel ratio. If it puts out too much pressure (the common failure) then the injectors will inject more fuel because they're staying open the same amount of time, but more fuel is being forced through them. If it fails "closed" then the bike/car/efi-lawnmower/whatever will run lean, or not at all.
If the pump is healthy, the regulator is almost always regulating. If you were to need the most fuel that the pump could deliver and the regulator wasn't needed to regulate anymore, then if the engine would need more fuel than the pump could supply, leanout would occur. This is usually only ever seen on all-out race vehicles that have upgraded fuel systems and is therefore not a concern.
The fuel pressure doesn't vary due to the amount of fuel in the tank unless:
A: the pump becomes momentarily uncovered (Uncommon, usually only happens in wrecks, and by then the bank angle sensor has killed the pump) or
B: the tank becomes empty.
The regulator is also where any air drawn in by the pump (a bad thing) has a chance to be expelled before being forced up to the injectors and causing a momentary loss of fuel.
At low fuel levels the fuel can get bubbles in it (remember, the regulator is constantly spraying fuel back into the tank). These bubbles will VERY quickly ruin a fuel pump for a number of reasons, and that's partly why the sock is designed the way it is-to wick up "solid" fuel without bubbles in it, and that's also why the pump pickup is at the VERY bottom of the tank. It gets the last drops of the most bubble-free fuel in the tank. (XBRR's had a plastic baffle on the pump, but I don't remember if stock XB's had that or not.)
Man, I'm long-winded! |
Buell_41
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 01:51 pm: |
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Wow, out for a few days, get in a wreck, come back and find so much info on this thread... wreck was in my wife's car nobody was injured. It was my fault (kinna)... I won't bore ya'll with the details.
Ok...
To answer Timothy's question, I only buy gas at the major suppilers. Mostly Exxon because that's whats on my way to work. I always fill up with the top grade gas.
To comment on other's posts... I don't ride the bike to empty (in the sense of it literally being bone dry). Before these problems the light would come on at 120mi. I would ride it probably till 135 or 140 and fill up.
With regards to the practice of running the gas out (or mostly out). I actually thought this would PREVENT the buildup of trash at the bottom of the tank. Well, I guess the pump is pulling from the bottom all the time anyway regardless of the amount of fuel. I probably just don't understand the effects either way.
As far as the pressure, I'm gonna have to agree with Jos51700. After the pump, I don't think there is any additional monitoring besides the AFV. In other words nothing is looking at the pressure in the fuel rail. Something I did notice is that sometimes, the fuel light will come on... then go out. After another couple of miles it would come on and stay on. Regardless, upon removal of the pump, I found the wires to be in good condition. Also, as stated in the OP, there were no codes.... as Jos described. So, for now I'm sticking with the flow/blockage problem at the sock.
I have located an '06 pump on Ebay and will call the guy to work out a "buy it now" option. During removal of the back wheel I noticed that the drive belt is dry rot and will also have to be replaced. Buell wasn't kidding when they say the '04 spec. belt has a 25,000 mile life. I'm right at that number. To some extent this has been a blessing in disguise because I wouldn't have see the belt.
Thanks for all who have posted. All your input has been very appreciated. Dealer wanted to charge me $1200 to do this and I ain't got that. I've also learn alot about how this bike works.
One question for all of you. Since I broke the pump getting it out, I want to remove the swingarm when I install the new pump. The bike is just like it is in those pictures. What's involved in removing the swingarm? |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 03:46 pm: |
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Pull the belt (Which, you're like, done already), and once you've pulled the front pulley cover to do that, you'll see the swingarm pivot bolt and it's pinch bolt. Loosen the pinch bolt, use your axle nuttool on the swingarm pivot bolt (it's regular-thread), and pull it out. Unbolt the shock, and you're basically done.
I wouldn't mess with oil lines, just don't go nuts bending them, and you'll be fine. That should give you plenty of room for jamming a pump in there.
Piece-a-cake! |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 09:24 pm: |
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As the fuel filter is after the regulator I would think that any restriction in the filter would reduce fuel pressure.
Why not place the regulator after the filter to ensure correct fuel pressure? |
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