| Author | Message | ||
     Buellnick |
A number of late model (2008-2009) XB model bikes have been experiencing oil level issues. You may have a problem if you are unable to get an accurate and consistent reading - even after following the exact directions in the owners manual. The problem appears to be that the oil is not staying in the swingarm but is running back into the engine. In my case, I check the oil immediately after engine stop and get a reading. Within two minutes and several successive oil readings the oil falls below the cross-hatched area. In about five minutes the oil is about 1/4 inch on the dipstick. In about 20mins there is no oil visible on the dipstick. This is an issue that I am currently addressing with Santa Fe HD/Buell in Santa Fe, NM. The dealer attempted to address the issue and changed the checkball on the bike - NO Change. The dealer service techs have not experienced such a problem with Buell XB bikes, however, except for the the check ball replacement; they have been restricted from performing any other exploratory or diagnostic work. The dealer contacted Buell Tech and was told that as long as there was good pressure and the oil ran back into the swingarm there is no cause for concern. I believe this is an unacceptable answer. I cannot get an accurate or consistent oil level reading and I have no way of knowing how much oil is in the bike. I am gathering info on the bikes identified as having the oil level issue discussed in the forum. This issue has been discussed in both XB and Knowledge Vault areas of BADWEB. Please provide your VIN to me via e-mail -or- if you don't mind, just post it on BADWEB. You can also provide the VIN directly to MurraeBueller on BADWEB. Murrae is a the lead Buell Coordinator (amongst other things) at Santa Fe HD/Buell (SFHD/B) in Santa Fe, NM. SFHD/B is attempting to address this issue on my behalf with senior Buell management and tech personnel. THANKS! | ||
| Court |
>>>A number of late model (2008-2009) XB model bikes have been experiencing oil level issues. How many? | ||
| Buellnick |
There are several responses in the XB Board and Knowledge Vault sections. I have requested all the VINs. The most significant thing for me is that my (wife's) 08 scg is experiencing the problem and the dealer cannot perform any more work to try and resolve the issue. | ||
| Court |
This is something I have never seen before . . . "Senior Buell Management" (generally not the folks dealing with tech issues) have empowered the "Senior Buell Coordinator" at an independent dealer to gather random data points on an issue? I'm not disputing a word you are saying . . . but I am saying that if I were seeking a resolution I could not think of a more circuitous route. It **appears**, to the unknowing and untrained, as one of those "well I talked to 9 other people on the internet and they are having the same problem" deals. I wish you the best of luck but I've never seen one work. What did the folks at Technical Services (the first group I would have called) have to say? Court | ||
| Buellnick |
Not seeking resolution on BADWEB - only information. I am seeking resolution FIRST through my selling/servicing dealer and THEN through BMC directly. The Buell Techs have already provided their final answer on this and the answer is unacceptable to me and the servicing dealer. After authorizing a checkball change, their answer was basically - just live with it. This is completely UNACCEPTABLE to me. I have had four Buells and currently own two. I expect better from BMC. Im not sure the Buell Techs understand the concept of customer support. It just so happens that the local dealer service techs have never seen this problem before and are not being authorized to perform any additional work to diagnose the problem. The local dealer is taking this up with BMC. I'm just helping gather some more data. As for requesting VINs... this was done at the request of a HD/B dealer employee who is willing and able to address this with senior Buell MC personnel. Its good to have a dealer that advocates for the customer... We shall see what comes of it... | ||
| Buellnick |
I talked with the local dealer about this situation...just yesterday. BMC is working the issue. The dealer rep expects something next week. To all who have provided their VINs - THANKS! HOWEVER, I was informed yesterday that in addition to the VIN, your name and mileage will also be required. I'll let you know when it is time to forward this information. The wife just picked-up the bike yesterday...no change re the problem. After an oil change you can use the oil "levels" as a average starting point. The mechanic (sorry, service technician) indicated the problem has to be in the oil pump or lines. However, they're not authorized to go exploring - yet. More to follow... | ||
| Buellnick |
To all who provided VINs... I've been told that the numbers have been provided to BMC. When BMC has a resolution they will want complete info on bike and owner. Stay Tuned... | ||
| Mesozoic |
It doesn't matter whether the oil is evacuated from the crankcase when the engine is not running. What DOES matter is that the dry sump oil system do its job when the engine IS running. I'm not sure why you're pursuing resolution for an issue that is inconsequential. Dry sump engines are great. | ||
| Bombardier |
Good point Mesozoic however checking the oil level is a very sensible thing to do prior to running the engine. | ||
| Buellnick |
Accurate and consistent oil level readings are important. There are some '08 XB oil systems out there that are not functioning as designed. It may also affect '09 motors since they use the same (new) oil system as '08s. Something is wrong and it needs to be fixed. It also seems to affect oil changes because you cannot completely drain the oil and then when you fill the oil the system is overfilled. In fact, I had a fresh oil change done by the dealer and the breathers puked oil all over the inside of the airbox. This is not disparaging Buell or dry sump motors...(my motor is more of a wet sump motor now). The local dealer and Buell MC have acknowledged that this is a problem and is working to identify the probable cause of the problem. If your bike is having oil level issues please post it here. | ||
| Mesozoic |
My oil level readings are different when the bike is hot and when it is cold. However, my readings are consistent when measured either hot or cold. I have an '08 XB12Ss and have changed and maintained the oil since I bought it (minus the dealer service at 1000 miles). I suppose I'm fortunate to not have severe inconsistencies when the engine is measured hot, but ultimately, most dry sump scavenging systems do permit the oil to seep back into the sump when the pumps are not running. This is obviously why the measurement is lower when the engine is cold, but I'm guessing that your issue is that something is leaking badly internally... if they replaced the check ball(s) perhaps the scavenger pumps are defective. | ||
| Buellnick |
Mesozoic, You appear to have a "normal" XB. The suspect item is the oil pump assembly but BMC (and HD) have not officially acknowledged anything yet. The oil pump assembly is internal now rather than external like it used to be on the pre-'08 bikes. I think they are trying to assess the scope of the problem before telling dealers to start opening the sides of XB motors. There are other possible causes but the most probable is the oil pump assembly. Just waiting for BMC to get off the dime and authorize the dealer to do some real work on the problem. | ||
| Saratoga |
My 09 XB12Ss does the same thing (oil drains back into the engine)... then again so did the 3 YZ450F's that I've owned over the years. Doesn't really seem like anything to worry about to me, especially since I know the correct amount of oil went in to begin with. | ||
| Buellnick |
Saratoga, BMC has acknowledged that this is NOT normal. The dealer techs are tearing apart the oil system to find the cause - now that BMC authorized work. In case you did not see the previous postings, the oil drains back into the motor almost immediately - showing low oil. The oil is completely off the dipstick within two hours. My 03 XB9R consistently read oil past 23K miles when I sold it. My 07 XB12STT is consistent. Knowing that you have enough oil in the bike is important, especially when on the road for 20+ miles daily and hundreds of miles each weekend. You have to be able to get accurate and consistent oil readings. This helps the owner know when and how much to fill and when there is enough. The way it is now, you can run it down to an oil light or overfill it and soak the airbox... not good choices. The dipstick is worthless. The equipment simply is not working as advertised and BMC is now working to make it right. I suggest you contact your dealer and advise them of the problem. You too have the new oil system. BMC is working on identifying the problem and the solution. | ||
| Piratebiker |
I have an 09 XB12XT and I am experiencing this exact same issue. Oil level can only be detected on the dipstick immediately after shutdown. I only have ~1,000 miles on the bike (two weeks old). I did change the oil and filter at 500 miles to clear any break-in bits and I plan on changing it again shortly. I added an additional 4 oz of oil today because I was nervous about the low oil level readings on the dipstick. Now I'm nervous about over-fill. Will contact dealer Monday or Tuesday to see if what they have to say. | ||
| Buellnick |
The bike is at the dealer - the techs are working on it... No news yet. Hopefully they will figure out something next week. Good luck with your dealer. My dealer had to rattle some cages at BMC. Don't accept the "its not a problem" answer. BMC and EB specifically, has acknowledged that it is NOT normal. | ||
| Dipstick |
Buellnick, I have an 08 XB12S and it does the same thing with the oil level issue as your bike. The only way to accurately check the oil level is with the engine running. When you start it cold you will see a steady stream of oil shooting out of the return line for a few seconds until the scavenge pump empties the sump and from then on it just spurts a small amount out. At this point, with the engine still running, you will get an accurate oil level reading. It's the best we can do until Buell figures this one out. | ||
| Invisible_monster |
I just had my '08 Uly XT in the shop getting checked for oil usage or leaks. I have been having to add about 1oz of oil for every 60 miles I ride since the bike was new. They found nothing wrong. I wonder if the problem you describe is what is happening to me. I usually wait to check the oil after I fill with gas or get all my gear off when I get home. Will try checking the oil right after I shut the bike off and see what results I get. | ||
| Bombardier |
Start the bike up and run for a couple of seconds. This will scavenge the oil that has run past the check valve back to the tank. Shut the bike down and then check the oil to get a true reading. | ||
| Buellnick |
Invisible_monster, You may be experiencing the same problem. I would get my wipe-off rag ready and then scramble to get a proper reading on the dipstick. I was surprised how inconsistent the first reading was and how fast the oil level went down after the engine was shut off. Within two mins it was below the cross-hatched area. The bike was recently repaired - new oil pump was installed. The oil seemed to stay in the swing arm longer. It still goes completely away (below the dipstick) within three days of sitting. At least now I can get a fairly consistent reading. However, the oil is (again) leaving the swing arm at an alarming fast rate. I have started doing what Bombardier describes... I restart the motor let it idle for about a minute or two and then shut it down and take another reading. The oil gets pumped back into the swing arm and seems to stay in there long enough to get a fairly consistent reading. It is better than before but it is definitely different from my two older XB bikes. Why it does not establish a "normal" level after the first shutdown is a bit of a mystery. This oil system seems to keep more oil in the motor (than older XBs) and does not consistently return a consistent level of oil to the swing arm. Also, check your airbox and see how much oil has been spit out by the breathers (esp the rear). If you've been adding oil every time the level was low, the motor has probably spit it out... you might want to soak it up before it starts to leak on top of the motor... The "restart method" of checking oil seems to be working for me - for now. Even after repairs, it still doesn't work work as advertised. I will be re-contacting the dealer for another assessment... | ||
| 9cherry9 |
I have a 2009 XB12SCG with 3500+ miles. It has the oil drain back problem, as did the '09 XB9SX that I traded in. Will "THEY" let me know when there is a fix? Meanwhile the "quick check at shut down" method seems to be reliable. I'm guessing at oil change time to drain as much of the old oil as possible, the "quick pull the plug at shut down" method would be wise too! | ||
| Blake |
I agree that the excessively quick drainback described by some here is problematic. However, please understand that every Buell air-cooled engine will allow the oil to drain from the oil tank into the crankcase overnight, or even after ten minutes. That is not a problem. All Buell air-cooled engines are supposed to have the oil checked immediately after engine shut-down. But drainback of the oil like Nick describes is neither normal nor I'd think acceptable. The check ball assy and it's mating seal should prevent that, no? | ||
| Buellnick |
The check ball was replaced before the oil pump and made no difference (new ball & new spring). The new oil pump made some difference. The oil still drains back pretty quick but at least now I can get a reading. The restart method of checking oil seems more consistent consistent. I always get a consistent but higher reading when I check it the second time. I'm watching it closely... N | ||
| Bombardier |
Could the oil be running back from the oil cooler assembly? It is larger on the new models and with the larger volume of oil it may have enough energy to negate the spring on the check valve. | ||
| Buellnick |
I doubt the oil cooler is causing this. I wonder if the whole system has more capacity? The checkball is in the oil pump (08-09 models) and it is likely the spaces inside the oil pump and the bottom of the motor are holding much of the oil. I have noticed the oil level is more consistent after an oil change. In other words, when the system is full of oil the swing arm retains more oil, more consistently. As the level goes down, the amount of oil retained by the swingarm decreases and becomes more inconsistent. This makes perfectly good sense. BMC has not changed the oil capacity for the 08-09 motors which is probably a good thing given the breathers blow out oil into the airbox after an oil change (in my situation). This may be the result NOT being able to remove all of the old oil during an oil change. | ||
| Blake |
The check ball was replaced before the oil pump and made no difference (new ball & new spring). There is one component that remains suspect, the seal against which the ball seats. | ||
| Bombardier |
If there is a larger volume on the oil cooler side it stands to reason that it will exert more force against the opposite side of the check valve - maybe just enough to allow oil to start flowing back. | ||
| Buellnick |
Blake, The seal was definitely suspect. The dealer checked it when they took the oil pump off. They replaced the oil pump. I was told the sealing area looked normal. They sent the old oil pump back to HD for analysis. Is it possible the machining in the seal area is not machined smooth on both pumps? Who knows for sure? | ||
| Buellnick |
Bombardier, The check ball is not really a check ball any more. It is located on the oil pump - not at the oil filter mount. It is a bypass valve that opens when pressure exceeds 25psi. This was replaced at first and did nothing. There is no checkball like in the older bikes. The system relies on oil filter anti drain-back properties to keep oil from draining back. It is possible the return line of the oil cooler puts oil back into the oil pump. I do not think this explains why oil does not return or stay in the swingarm. | ||
| Jlivick |
I am experiencing the problem of not being able to get a consistent / accurate oil level reading on my 2008 Uly. Has anyone had any success with resolving this problem through your dealer and / or Buell? The Buell Factory is 60 miles from my home. I'm inclined to take my bike to the factory to talk directly with the Buell techs. |
