| Author | Message | ||
     Court |
>>>>its simple, BMW puts a higher standard on there dealers, and makes theme take care of the customer I'm confused. My question was not "why does your Buell suck?" and the BMW standards statement seems a bit in conflict with BMW North America's recent stance in which they have eliminated some of the dealers, with excellent reputations, to make way for larger "car and motorcycle" shops. I'd be interested to know if your assesement of the BMW dealer / customer service situation is based on perception or facts. In fact, REALLY interested...I own a BMW F650. Court | ||
| Buellman |
Any Jazz fans... got a live chat going with Chico Hamilton at http://www.speakeasylive.com. No signup... just hop in and chat. This was developed by our programmer that did Sport Twin. Starts at 12pm CST. Enjoy! Brad G Sport Twin | ||
| Grndskpr |
Well as far as BMW goes i can only repeat what Chi has stated regarding his experiences with both motorcycles, so i think he should step up and tell you first hand, and yes i know what you are refering to, i can remeber back to when the K bike had drive shaft issues, and there was a similar seniment regurding those bike for some time, i on the other hand did not realize about the carbike thing, so i will as they say step off, however this does bring up a good point, even though BMW has experienced there own problems, not that far off from buell, why is it they still have such a rock solid rep in general, is it because of customer care of just spin put on by marketing, one other thing, which was once brought to my atention, just because they do dosnt mean you have to, or in other words just because they suck dosnt mean you have to or should suck also(and a kid,young kid told me this, boy did he put me in my place) again just a thought, why not come out Court, why not visit us, why not talk to us in person, sometimes it worth a trip if your planning something big, or really want to find out whats up, or maybe you could just tell us what this is all about, or is the secret just to big ROger | ||
| Brianh |
"One thing that confounds me is the affinity in perpetuity of "former dissaffeted owners". I'm a bit humored, while at the same time a bit confused, reading about former owners gathering for BBQ's. Frankly, the moment I parted company with my Chevrolet Vega (arguably the worst designed vehicle of all time) I never looked back, nor held BBQ's with co-victims." Haven't you heard that a dissatisfied customer spreads the word with much more frequency than a satisfied customer? And you're obviously not aware of my new V-Rod purchase Mr. Canfield. I'm a card carrying HOG member. That means I was merely taking pity on the bastard step children of the Harley marque by gracing their BBQ with my V-Rod's presence. Albeit, a bastard child itself, a much more appropriate vehicle for the event at hand. On that note, why would one not continue to fraternize with the folks one's met via Buell ownership? I was under the impression we were purchasing motorcycles, not life styles. Are you implying that once Buell ownership ends, one should no longer associate with other Buell owners? How many of your Vega owning friends did you scorn on the past anyway? Perhaps this next explanation will better explain why I am the way I am. You see, I need to rephrase my reply to your question. I'm was not simply "unsatisfied" with my 1998 S3. That motorcycle scarred me for life and robbed my bank account of approximately $10,000 more than it should have. The English Language has NO adjective that adequately describes my complete and utter hatred of how my Buell experience turned out. Therefore, while you choose to carry the Buell torch without ever having actually purchased one of their motorcycles (I'm guessing you didn't put out money for Barney or the White S2), I choose to always seek to extinquish said torch in the eyes of the Buell customer. I will, however, do a complete 180 should they ever put out what I consider to be a competent product (read: reliable power plant). There you go. I'm done for another year. See you later BadWeb. | ||
| Grndskpr |
so the answer would be perception, i guess i should have answered that first off, fact would be i have been treated better by kawasaki/honda/yamah/ have owned them all and had them serviced at dealerships and have had people go above and beyond what needed to be done, BMW well not till next year, wife want one so we are looking at a c, time will tell but i hope it dosnt take 5 months for parts, but i will grant you it could, so until it actually happens, like i said Chi will have to confirm or deny | ||
| Grndskpr |
i think Cecil is the extreme hater and Blake is the opposite extreme, so they cancel each other out, oh well back to zero Roger | ||
| Bomber |
Court Happy Bueller, very dissatisfied dealer customer . . . the good ones in my area would be rated (by me, anyway) as simply acceptable if they were auto dealers . . . . . my Y2K M2 works better than I thought it would, but I was expecting difficulties . . . the only problems I've had have been due to parts of the bike I modified (other than the laughable rocker box leaks . . .laughable, because it took HD so long to fix it) . . . unfortunately, the company's insistance on surveying owners on the product, and not the dealership AND product, is a non-starter . . . I hope the initiatives you've mentioned go forward, and make some headway . . . . .I can't help but fell that Buell would be well servered in having it's onwn training and dealership relationship departments, rather than using HD's. While bootstratpping on the motherships cash, manufacturing, and distribution muscle makes a great deal of sense, the linkage between the 2 companies is too close in many areas (I'll just mouth the words "chrome heel guards, and pass on any further examples). When I had a telephone interview with HD University about 1.5 years ago (I'm in training and documentation, and mis-use the language on this board through cussedness), I was asked how many Harleys I owned. When I answered that two Buells were presently in my garage, the nice lady said, "well, that's nice sir, but I'd like to know how many HARLEYS you own." The nice lady was (and may still be) and HD employee, not a contractor (from whom this question could be expected, or, perhaps, forgiven). I'm not bustin them for not hiring me (their loss, I'm thinkin), but it is a good example of a basic lack of market understanding being shown . . . and, as a person who's worked in and near customer service a great deal, a sterling example of customer service being order to fill the void left by poor market planning on the part of other portions of a corporation. phew . . . . . maybe it's a good thing they didn't hire me . . .their docs and training materials would be way too long, yes? | ||
| Court |
Brian: Good news....I am a card carrying Life Member of H.O.G. as well  >>>without ever having actually purchased one of their motorcycles huh? I think, with the possible exception of Aaron, I've purchased and owned more Buell than a good many, Barney (again you're correct) was far and away the most expensive. Good points all...... | ||
| Duck |
Since Court asked his question I've seen numerous responses from folks who love their Buells and have had no trouble. I'm curious what kind of mileage you have on your bikes. In other words are you not having problems because of low mileage or did I just get a lemon? 00M2 - 48,300 Short list of problems with mine off the top of my head: Base gaskets x 3 Rockers x 4 Primary adjustment shoe snaps in half and jammed between gears leaving me with second and nothing else -- I didn't see the warnings on the web until later -- my fault though -- couldn't be a faulty design or anything like that. Starter clutch x 2 One starter One battery failed SRP shock failed Recall shock failed -- got another for $100 form Buell -- very cool Header studs x 3 Signal flashers x 6 Speedo sensors x 5 Cracked tail section Top end rebuild twice I'm quite sure that I am leaving a few things out, but the point is clear to me at least. This bike has been far from trouble free. I love this bike when it is running, but the problem is that I can rarely go more than a thousand miles without some sort of trouble. | ||
| Bomber |
Brian I share Court's feelings on the amount of time some folks spend disliking their exbikes, and the company . . . .certainly, unhappy customers make more noise than happy ones, generally, but some folks have made Buell hating into a hobby . . . . . I recently read the mumblings of a clearly confused person who claimed the Mr Buell was personnaly responsible for his pouring over $10K into his S3 . . .. make me chuckle . . .visions of Erik hold a gun to the poor man's head as he wrote check after check after check . . . . . . though, that said, love and hate are very close . . . . could be these folks were very passionate about their bikes before they broke. of course, you have to factor out what I call the "electronic bravery" factor . . . . people saying things, or saying them in a manner they wouldn't repeat in person, due to the annonymity of this communications medium . . . a certain young man in uniform that posts frequently on sacborg comes to mind . . . . . this is, I beleive, part of the nature of the communication beast . . it's been a constant since ARPANET, and, if sacborg is any indication, it ain't changing anytime soon. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Court... local friend of a friend (but true information) has a BMW adventure tourer of some sort. Been back to dealer 3 or 4 times for pretty major disasters, including completely replacing the engine after tech forgot something important (oil or coolant) during previous service. The thing has never really run well. The dealer is trying to help them, but has already destroyed one engine trying. The friend who knows this guy owns a 2000 Honda XR-650, and had problems with a nicked fork tube (probably done by honda tech during service) and I personally helped him fix a bad solder joint (an OBVIOUSLY cold solder joint direct from the Honda factory) on the kill switch that stopped the bike dead. Yamaha Radians (great older UJM's comparable to the nighthawk) all have notched steering head bearings, leaking valve cover gaskets, and weak clutch springs... all due to factory design problems. Stuff happens. People deal. It's worth it to them or not. Life goes on. Anyone who wants to hear a REAL horror story, start asking me about my Ford Windstar. Ugh. I lost enough on that POS in 20k miles to buy a Cyclone outright. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Count me as dissastisfied. Count Ray Monasmith, on eof the other founders of SacBORG, as dissastified. He finally had to lemon law his bike. Do you want me to forward you the rest of the names of people that I personally know that have left Buell with a very bad taste in their mouth? I know more than a dozen in the area I live alone. You aren't just wearing rose colored glasses if you believe there are only three dozen dissastisfied owners out here, you're wearing blinders. I get a lot of email, Court. I get it from people who hate SacBORG because it's "just a place for whiners to bash on Buells" and I get others form people thankful to find they are not alone. I intended SacBORG to be an enthusiast's group. As time went by and people's bikes started grenading, Cecil's, Mine, Ray's, ChiBuellers, knutz's, Slacker's, Zero's, Snail's, LURCH's, etc, it became a support group. I have talked with a great number of people that don't think much of me. They see me as the Roman that crucified Christ. I have also talked to a great many people who were not scorned by their experience; however, they would not buy another Buell. I've talked with Erik and expressed my concerns and I get the impression he genuinely cares. This makes it all the harder for me; being the voice of the dissatisfied. I like him, I respect him and I want him to do well. I see storm clouds on the horizon, though, and I don't know if they are coming or going. To make a long story long, Court, if you really want to get an acurate reading here, talk with me. Talk with the dealers (something I haven't even touched on yet...there are dealers that HATE Buell). Then, define dissastisfied. I define it as someone who would not buy another Buell or would not own one out of warantee. A prime example of this would be ol' Bob in the Rain Forest. He loves Buell; yet, he wouldn't own one. Vik | ||
| Grndskpr |
COurt, maybe you should re post what you want/need before this become some sort of bitching thing, what are you looking for, what do you want what do you need to help you on your quest to improve a company, no sence in all of us getting on a plastering you with what about me's, we all would like to help you, we all at one point loved buell, we all, well most would like the company to do well, but maybe you need to be more specific, are you looking for marketing help, are you looking to help spin buell out of its problems or are you looking to actually improve the product, the BMW coment kinda had me worried, are you looking to help change the perception of buell??? just ask and they will come ROger | ||
| Chibueller |
Court, One thing I think needs to be sorted out is the dealership servicing. I'll say that my 2000 x1 (6,500 miles total) as a product was, itself, a failure. IMO the product I recieved was of poor quality (certainly worse than other manufacturers). That being said, the dealership servicing made the problem unbearable begining at the 500 mile break in. I held out for a year while I truely believed BMC would solve my problem via the dealer. My problem was the bike overheated all the time. It also surged under test, meaning that I would be cruising along with out a worry in the world and suddenly she would loose 90% power like it was running on 1 cylinder. I would twist the throttle hard to keep up with hwy traffic and a few seconds later the power would kick back on and send me flying at light speed without warning. Try passing a Semi up in rush hour with this scenario. BMC HQ contacted me after I sent them a written letter and they tried to resolve the problem at the dealership. A month later I got my bike back and nothing had changed. The dealership wouldn't even release the bike to me because of liability issues until they thought the problem was solved. That stupid machine musta been in the shop 100 of the 364 day that I owned it. What needs to be sorted out is that those of us who bought the bikes new and under warranty mostly see the dealer as responsible for sorting things out in year 1 at least. However, some of your respondents will say they service the machine themselves, which is good and all but didn't we pay a premium for the warranty? I see how the people who do the servicing themselves come out ahead but I didn't have the time to do this and I was told by the dealer that it would void the warranty. Given this and the fact that I couldn't service the x1 DDFI I felt helpless. I probably could have fixed a rocker box leak in an hour or 2 myself but I don't have a garage and the dealer is only 5 blocks away. | ||
| Court |
Vik: Well said and I'll hope you'll be sure to notice that, over a bunch of years, I've never fallen into the "I like so&so or I hate so&so because......". Folks have differing experiences and I, like you, genuinely know there are caring people, Erik included, within the Buell ranks. I've also never felt it necessary to slam or belittle any BBS (and I've seen many of them over the last 8 years) beleiving that each has it's merit. Frankly, I was enjoying reading about the New York Cituy Faux Ticket Tape Parade on SacBorg this morning and it I could remember (I know you've sent it to me 3 dozen times!) password and user ID I'd have responded. Thanks for weighing in here. Court | ||
| Two_Buells |
5 Buells since 1996 90,000 miles satisfied. BTW, I was at the after open house party and was bitchin about my old dealer. My new dealer and three others that I delt with this year have treated me like a king. | ||
| Sonomacyclone |
court- i bought my 1999 m2 used (w/ about 6000 miles on the clock) knowing that it had a loose piston and would soon need a top end rebuild. i know that the previous owner was a wheelie/stoppie maniac, so i was never sure if the engine failure was due to poor workmanship, or abusive riding. it didn't really matter to me - i wanted the bike, and was willing to have the work done. since the rebuild, i have logged over 7000 miles and the only problems i've had are a bad fork seal, and a leak from the recall replacement shock. i use golden gate hd / buell for all of my service. the guys there have always been prompt w/ getting my bike in and out for service. the buell tech seems to know the bike very well and is very free w/ info and his time whenever i have a question. i've been riding since 1987 and so far, of all the bikes that i've owned or ridden, the buell is hands down my favorite ride. i know that the bike has it's flaws, and i absolutely keep a closer eye on it than any other bike i have ever owned, but i am willing to accept that in exchange for the experience i get each time i take the bike out. count me as satisfied w/ both the bike and my dealer support. bryan | ||
| Bigj |
I think another thing needs to be addressed. Just listing "satisfied" or "dissatisfied" is not a good idea. I've seen guys that say their Buell is the best bike ever made, and they'd never own anything else, AFTER having 3 engine rebuilds in 20,000 miles. It's not being very realistic to think there are many people out there like that to sell Buells to. I can honestly agree with Cecil, looking back on the experience, that my issues scarred me for life. And I am not being overdramatic. I really think every one that bought a Buell was hoping for a kick ass American Sport Bike. I hoped even while I was having major issues and even for a while after that. In April of this year, I had to go to Florida on business for two weeks. I put my Buell in the shop for "normal maintenance". Belt, isolaters, clutch, throttle cables, tires. $1500 bill. Big cash. It didn't really phase me, 'cause of all the cash I've spent in the past. The clutch helped but didn't cure my niggling tranny issue. In June, I got a oil leak on the rear cylinder. Nothing real big, but between that and the tranny, I was looking at some more big cash in a short while. That was the straw. Actually a very small straw(relatively speaking in the Buell world), but enough is enough. I bought the Beemer R1150R. After all the time, money, and effort I have put into my bike, and also into advancing the Buell community, I do have ONE positive thing from it. The friends I have made. But it pains me to see many of them going through the same thing I did. In all honesty there is no way I can recommend a Buell to anyone. I would feel bad doing it. | ||
| Aaron |
1996 S2T - VERY satisfied, the thing just runs, a pleasure to ride, saddlebag bracket broke once is all (battery took a dump but it was the battery not the charging system). 1996 S1 - satisfied, had to fix the gearbox once but it was easy and cheap, right fork leg is puking oil but hey it has 33K+ miles. Overall the bike is pretty good. 1999 M2 - hmm, borderline satisfied ... I really enjoy this bike, but definitely some things failed that shoulda never failed, like exhaust issues (especially studs which are a PITA) and rocker box leaks and base gasket leaks. But good fixes for those things are in place, I ain't gonna dwell on the past. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Here is the real conundrum for Erik. I like my 00 M2 and will probably buy another Buell, but I would hesitate to recommend one to someone else. | ||
| Golin |
I am in the satisfied camp. I have not had many problems, other than the speedo sensor going on my M2. I love the bike and it's perfect for what I want. I will most likely never sell this bike. (Of course who would but it right BrianH?) I might get another Buell in the future, I might not. It all depends on my needs, and what the company is offering. | ||
| Kelly |
"hater" is not too strong a word. I HATE the company and its shitty support of the customer. I shouldnt have to accept poor service, substandard products and outrageous wait times as "a part of owning a Buell". I shouldnt have to have the bike 'rebuilt' by a pro for mega bucks to have a reliable machine. I get dismissed as a whiner, but I wanted a Buell since '97. I passed up every other available make and model at the time to get the bike that I "thought" I wanted. In '99 I saved what little money I made (around $1000 a month) for the down payment. I was overseas at the time so I relied to the internet and owners that I had met for honest reports on quality. I was duped. All of the Buell loyalists would not tell me of the problems. I got this motorcycle as my primary form of transport, not a toy as many do. Anyway, everyone has heard my rant before, so I will just say that almost everything that I have dealt with from BMC is substandard. With that, there are the few exceptions. Dave S at Iowa Harley and Modesto. But why should I deal with companies thousands of miles away? It honestly isnt because of the discount. The discount covers shipping. I should be able to go to the nearest dealer and get the service that I deserve as a paying customer. I bought a product and deserve SERVICE for my purchase. | ||
| Chibueller |
Court, Regarding the Dealership: Chicago HD and Chicago BMW are owned by the same guy. I have not heard anyone complain about the HD service dept as long as they own a Harley. My Buell would simply render confused looks for $150 and a weeks wait (you can see how it took them this long if they couldn't even find the right scannalizer cartridge-guest grease monkey #2 must have taken it home accidentally). Although they took me as a walk in at times to dole this out, I'll give them that. The BMW service dept actually shares a common wall with the HD service dept. The BMW service mgr requires you to book an appointment for the following required (for warranty complience) services: 600 mile break in 6000 mile service 12000 mile service, etc etc every 6000 miles Spring annual service I am always in and out in less that 45 minutes (and they have to sync carbs for that). They added my hard bag kit in 20 minutes while I waited. Never had a problem w/ BMW service. Even though these two shops work for the same boss there is a rivalry. Never once has my Beemer accidentally been parked over on the Harley side of the driveway because someone needed to make way for another oil change. I will say that HD service at Chicago HD washes your bike after they tool with it. That aspect is followed religously. BMW doesn't clean it for ya. Prices are about the same for the similar services. 20% off parts from each dealer still applies. | ||
| Golin |
Also, Court the new 911 is fit for the road, but it is an abomination to the rest of the 911 lineage. The 911 died when air stopped flowing around the cylinders and was replaced with water. | ||
| Chibueller |
In fact, I got sick of Chicago HD ripping me off and took the thing to IL HD (CW says they're the tops). The bike was serviced 2 times within a month at IL HD and the same problem persisted. They finally released the bike to me after 1 week of part tossing on a Friday. On Sunday I took the bike on a 150 mile RT with the Brag club and the problem came back. The bike simply died with little warning and would not be restarted. I'll say that IL HD was good enough to tow the bike back to Chicago and throw more parts at her at their expense. Very good of them. The problem never went away so I came to the conclusion that the bike was a POS AND that most HD dealer service depts didn't know $hit from Shanola when it comes to trouble shooting them. My rule of trouble shooting holds especially true for HD dealer service: Rule # 1 to follow for trouble shooting = CHECK OPERATOR. | ||
| Nikolakis |
Satisfied--29,400 miles. Problems yes but they were not major. Never been stranded (where is that wood when ya need it). Good support from my dealer and met a great bunch of folks through the Buell. Major complaint is that there is no replacement for my S3T in the Buell lineup. | ||
| Timmy2shoes |
DISSATISFIED ~~~ Horribly! I lurk on sacborg now and again, and haven't been on badweb for a while, but this is worthy of chiming in. I have owned 3 Buells. Carina has a '00 blast, which so far, has been trouble free. My other Buells? fun as hell to ride, but i still get that bitter taste in my mouth everytime i even hear the word Buell. I have been a member of this site since mid 1999, a lurker since before that, a sacborger since it's inception (bitch # 11, thankyouverymuch) and have (i believe) witnessed the rise and fall of Buell first hand. Yeah, you can look at my profile, and see that i never bothered to erase my enthusiasm for the machines... and you know why? it's NOT because i am still enthusiastic. it is because i don't care anymore. it's because i've beem dryfucked so many times by Buell (with poor quality machines, build quality, materials, and parts) by dealers (with outright lies about warranty repair, price gouging, and poor service by incompetent techs) and by YOU. Yes, YOU (collective you here) who claim the greatness of Buell, to newcomers to the world of buell, or worse yet to the world of motorcycling, filling their heads full of misinformation, urging them to spend hard earned cash on some lousy POS that they are going to regret in the future... with the caveat that they at the very least "become a mechanic" or sleep with the service writer at the local chrome hangout. Pathetic. Sorry, but this is how i feel. My first Buell, (bought used, wrecked) after months doing the legwork to get parts to rebuild it (my dealer had NO idea where to begin... so i did all the legwork, and got a killer deal on the bike) was a fantastic machine. Or so i thought. over 3500 miles in the first month and a half of it being roadworthy, and it ended up in a ditch, with me and the lady beside it) i was enthusiastic about the bike, and bought a white lightning. (still not having much experience with the brand) my dealer "friend" (cough *bullschit* cough) told me he would make me a deal on a cherry 1998 S1W that he had, (only 6 miles on it) and it was a "collectors edition" it is worth 15k dollars, blah blah blah. well, no, i didn't buy into that crap, but i did buy the bike, because i didn't want anything but an S1, and here it was. i overpaid for that bike by about $5000. he told me the bike was new, and was sold as a new bike. well, long rant short, it had been titled by the dealer, so i got no warranty (they didn't tell me this until i needed to have the heads pulled only 2 months into ownership) and they also told me that they wouldn't work on my bike unless i used those crap paper HD rockerbox gaskets. 8 times those gaskets went bad, the first year of ownership. I am not a mechanic, but after paying (i won't even embarass myself by stating how much) for the rockerbox leaks the first 3 times, i said, screw it, and figured out how to do it myself (5 more times!!!) til i finally said, F- it, and used james metal gaskets. (never had to change them again after that) i had headers crack, broken exhaust hangers, leaky shocks, failed sidestand switches, lost header nuts, bad fork seals, a breather that wouldn't stop puking..... not the kind of luxury i could afford. when i bought this bike i was a 21 year old kid, underpaid and underlaid. I spent a LOT on that bike, because i thought the old axiom was true; you get what you pay for with Buells. you Don't. That's it. end of story. one thing i did get, for free with the Buell was the comraderie of some great folks, i have had many talks with Court through email, and on the phone, met and rode with the tri-state trash, slayed the dragon, rode with some of the coolest people i have ever met, (vik and chop) made whit i feel could be lifetime friends. I joined badwebs own rider assistance network, and have helped several Buellers out who have ben through my neck of the woods, and made friends that way as well. BTW, i won't even go on about how the resale of your beloved buell sucks, because as i have been chastised for so many times, 'you don't buy these things as investment pieces" well.... when HD is the only company that will finance them, and they will only finance at like 11-13%, and the bikes are already overpriced by about 2-4000 dollars.... you are sure to take a loss. If i had a dime for every time i read someone on a buell site say "if i could only sell this thing without losing my ass on it"... i'd have enough to by several new bikes... and i can assure you, they WOULDN'T be BUELLS (btw, i lost my ass on that selling that buell, and I still say... "Good Riddance" Tim Reiter Altoona, Pa | ||
| Bigj |
I think this is all a big conspiracy by Blake and Court to get Badwebs posts up. | ||
| Timmy2shoes |
http://www.labusas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=254964 | ||
| Brianh |
Now THAT sounds familiar. Sorry to hear it, but feeling better with the vindication. Remember what happened a few years back when I posted similar statements? |
