| Author | Message | ||
     Thump4fun |
Ok, new Bueller (new rider as well) here with a newbie question. Just bought my first bike about a month ago, a new 2008 XB12Ss. I have almost 500 miles on the bike and noticed the oil level is pretty low - meaning it's barely touching the dipstick at cold, and is just under the add line when hot. (Yes, I'm checking it on the stand per the owner's manual and waiting 3-5 minutes after a ride to check it hot but letting the oil flow into the reservoir first.) I did some research and decided it was a good opportunity to drain her and fill her back up with synthetic. (I'll probably do it again at the recommended 1,000 miles just to be sure and get all the crud out of the new engine.) I chose Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 based on reviews plus because it's the easiest of the top reviewed oils to find (good old Auto Zone carries both the oil and the Mobil 1 M1-103 filter). So today after changing the oil in my truck, I tackled the bike for the first time. No big deal to change it out, just getting accustomed to everything the first time through and building good karma with my bike. :-) Thought about doing the primary/clutch as well with the same Mobil 1 oil, but decided to tackle that at 1,000 miles instead. Only biting off so much at one time. But...after I follow the 2.5 quarts capacity per the owner's manual (by adding 4 ounces to the filter then the remaining to the oil reservoir) the dipstick wasn't even wet when cold. Took it out for a 5 mile ride, through the neighborhood at 25 MPH then down the main road at 45-55 MPH (45 when the cop came around the curve - LOL) to get her hot. Checked the oil, with bike level and on the kickstand, and the oil was now just under the minimum line, although at least the dipstick was now wet. Did some more research here and on another forum. Found a few folks claiming that 3 quarts is really the max. So I added the remaining 1/2 quart and rode her around the block. Now the oil is overfilled and actually contains small bubbles, like it's been churned up! Somebody clue me in. How much oil exactly do I need to put in an XB12Ss to make her happy, and what will that show me on the dipstick, both at hot and cold temps? (I'll be siphoning out some oil in the morning with a turkey baster that my wife "loaned" me when she gave me the idea - although I'm not sure she's really going to want it back after I suck oil with it.) | ||
| Sort23 |
I have an 06 XB12ss and 2.5 quarts gives a good reading with engine warm and bike on the kickstand. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Wish mine would be as easy as that Kenny. I can't get a good reading no matter how many times or when I check it - cold, warm or hot. I siphoned out about 12 ounces this morning to bring the oil to just getting the dipstick wet when cold. Took a ride to heat her up. When I got back home I checked the oil hot, and it was almost exactly in the same spot as when cold. Waited 3 minutes, checked again, same reading. Waited until the fan shut off (about another 3-5 minutes), checked again -- and now it was a little higher up the stick but still under the minimum line. I must have checked it 10 times with no good reading. At this point it has about 2.75 quarts in it, but it sure doesn't read that way to me. Anyone have a definitive answer as to how to get a good reading? Or maybe I'll just stick to the cold reading as at least it's consistently the same. | ||
| Thump4fun |
A little more to add...this morning I thought I'd add about 4 ounces of oil given yesterday's checks showing it so low, but I forgot about it until after I started the bike and was putting on my helmet. The bike had idled for about 90 seconds when I remembered, so I shut her down and grabbed some oil. I checked the oil level first, and lo and behold, it showed a good halfway into the "good" zone for once! I checked it three times just to be sure, and it read the same each time - half the XXXs were covered. I'd not been able to get this measurement before, either cold or hot. At this point the bike was barely luke warm. Am I just nuts here or what? I went ahead and added about 4 ounces of oil anyway, which puts me at 2 quarts and 24 ounces (2.75 quarts exactly) since draining the oil and filter on Saturday. Maybe this is the magic number and will give me a good "hot" reading at lunch today. | ||
| Buellnick |
I have an '08 scg (actually its the wife's bike). The oil always drains back into the motor after shutdown. This happens in about 2 mins. Checking oil is a scramble right after engine shut down and the reading is always a little different. I cannot get and accurate or consistent oil level check. The dealer replaced the checkball - no change. The dealer is talking with Buell Tech Services and their first response was to live with it as long as the oil is circulating back through the system upon start-up. This is an unacceptable answer and the dealer agrees. Local dealer techs have never seen this before. The dealer is re-engaging with Buell to get a better answer - at least a better explanation. I'm going direct to Buell Customer Service next week... | ||
| Buellnick |
Apparently, I am not the only one... Have any of you complained about the problem to the dealer or Buell Customer Service?? The oiling system on 2008-2009 bikes is routed differently. I think Buell Motor Company made a change to the timing system and rerouted oil to the cams without fully testing the whole system. I don't want to believe they made changes to the oil system and just "blew off" the impact on the oil level. The attitude of Buell Tech doesn't give me any warm and fuzzies. Please post similar issues on this thread. I want to know if any of your dealers come up with a solution to this problem...and it is a problem when you can't check the oil. Design flaw on the new bikes? Bad instructions in the owners manual?? BMC needs to take care of this ASAP. So far, I've been dealing with the dealership. The dealer service techs were told to change the check ball and then told to do nothing more... FRUSTRATING to both the dealer techs and the customer. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Well, part of me is glad to know this isn't just a stupid newbie problem for me. On the other hand, I'm disheartened to find that this may be a systemic problem with the '08 model year. Buellnick - I have not contacted the dealer or Buell about this, wanting first to confirm the issue (or a newbie problem) with other riders here. Since it sounds like you've done more investigation with the dealer already, and they agree it's a problem, I'll hit up Buell Customer Service myself as well. Anybody else seeing this issue on '08 (or even '09) XB Lightnings? | ||
| Buellnick |
I'm giving the dealer one more week to discuss this with Buell. If they cannot work out some resolution to this, the calls and letters to Buell will begin. I hope they fix this or at least come up with a better way to check the oil. | ||
| Buellnick |
The dealer has had little success with BMC on this issue. The dealer has hinted that it may be the oil pump assembly. Since this appears to be an anomaly, I'm thinking BMC does not want to fix it. This is simply NOT the way its supposed to work. What is customer loyalty and satisfaction worth to Buell? After four Buells... I guess I am going to find out. | ||
| Buellnick |
ALSO... My selling/servicing dealer (Santa Fe HD/Buell) would like to get a better idea of how many bikes are affected. There may be a call for VINs of those bikes that seem to be having the oil level problem. If you are willing to post on the BADWEB - please do it. Otherwise I will put you in touch with an individual at the dealer. | ||
| Buellnick |
For those who are receiving emails from this section... I will probably be starting a third section to call for VINs. I will try and email those folks that appear to be having the oil level problem. | ||
| Thump4fun |
My oil level 'seems' to be steady now, although I'm not sure it's 'right'. I've stopped checking it so often (meaning every friggin' ride, 4-5x a day) and just when I fueled up a couple times. Both times I checked it within about 2 minutes and both times now show the oil at about 2 X's - therefore presumably within the correct oil level. However, given the 2.75 quarts I put in, and seeing no leaking whatsoever, I would expect to see it completely full. It's only been slightly over 200 miles since I changed the oil and encountered this problem, so I can't believe I've burned off 1/2 a quart already, even on a new engine. I've also had no luck trying to find an email or contact form for Buell service. Is it just the two of us having this issue or are others out there seeing this with '08 XBs? Buellnick - I'll be happy to post my VIN if you're getting through to Buell. | ||
| Buellnick |
Thump4fun, Please post your VIN or at least e-mail to me directly through BADWEB. I am dealing with "MurraeBueller" who is not only a member of BADWEB but also the Buell guy, coordinator, instructor, etc. at Santa Fe HD/Buell. He has been in direct contact with with Buell senior management at Buell to try and resolve the problem. If you would like you can send it to him directly and let him know you've been communicating with Buellnick on this issue. FYI. Murrae knows Buells and knows EB... If anyone can help resolve this at the dealer level, its Murrae. | ||
| Buellnick |
I talked with the local dealer about this situation...just yesterday. BMC is working the issue. The dealer rep expects something next week. To all who have provided their VINs - THANKS! HOWEVER, I was informed yesterday that in addition to the VIN, your name and mileage will also be required. I'll let you know when it is time to forward this information. The wife just picked-up the bike yesterday...no change re the problem. After an oil change you can use the oil "levels" as a average starting point. The mechanic (sorry, service technician) indicated the problem has to be in the oil pump or lines. However, they're not authorized to go exploring - yet. More to follow... | ||
| Froggy |
Thump4fun, if you over fill it, the extra oil will get pumped into the airbox. Take off the red cosmetic cover, then unsnap the 4 plastic tabs the hold the lid to the airbox on. You will find all your extra oil on the air filter!  Once the bike gets down to its "happy level" with the oil, it tends to stay there. Adding more will just put it in the airbox. Because of the issue with the 08's and 09's with checking the oil, it will be hard to figure out where this happy spot is, but on the older bikes it tends to be right at the top of the second X from the bottom of the dipstick. | ||
| Thump4fun |
Thanks Froggy, that's good information to know and understand. Funny thing, with all my messing with it to try and find something consistent, top of the 2nd X seems to be about right on my '08 too. As long as I check it at pretty much the exact same time at every fuel fill-up (60 seconds after shutting her off) I get that same reading - right at the 2nd X. 30 seconds sooner or even 30 seconds later, and it's no where close to that reading. I've succumbed to just sucking it up and adding it to the list of unique character traits of our Buells! LOL I'll definitely be checking my filter after work today. I hope this issue didn't ruin my $60 K&N....grrrr.... | ||
| Froggy |
Well because its a K&N, you can wash it off and then re-oil it. I recommend the breather re-route and catch can kit. Instead of dumping the splooge onto the filter, it gets collected in a little canister that sits next to the oil cooler. Every few hundred miles, open the petcock and let it splooge over the ground http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/A9306.html - Catch can http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/5641.html - Optional air filter for the can While your at it, how about the open airbox mod, its awesome, especially with the translucent plastics, you can see the air filter. Gets people wondering where the gas tank is http://www.americansportbike.com/shoponline/ccp0-p rodshow/A9304.html  | ||
| Thump4fun |
Thanks for all the great links Froggy! I got stuck taking care of other matters this evening and ran out of time to check my filter. About the open airbox - I read some other posts that seemed to suggest that it helps that low RPM stumbling...did it help you? | ||
| Froggy |
Yes, hows 1800 rpm putting around town with next to no complaints from the bike? Honestly my only complaint is that my new HVMP bar ends enhance vibrations from 1000-2000 RPM, so it gets a little annoying to keep the bike that low. Rest of the RPM range is smooth as butter with the bar ends.(Note - 2006 bike, don't got any 2008+ bikes with the new FI system, so i haven't had a chance to see how they react!) Just checked out your profile, i see you are the guy i told about badweb when i stumbled on your blog accidentally If we meet in person, like at Buelltoberfest or Liberty this Saturday, you are more than welcome to ride my bike to see how it should run | ||
| Thump4fun |
Actually, now that I'm getting used to how the bike likes to be ridden, I'm rather enjoying "puttering around town" in the 3-4k range - LOL! But I could do without the stumbling. I'm going to add the open airbox mod to my list of things to do with her this winter. I appreciate the offer to ride your bike and look forward to meeting you in person someday. More importantly, thanks for stumbling across my blog and pointing me to BadWeb!! btw - great looking bike you have Froggy!!! (Message edited by thump4fun on September 18, 2008) | ||
| Buellnick |
Buell authorized a new oil pump. The replacement seems to have fixed the problem. The dealer is not sure what caused the problem and the oil pump is going back to HD for further analysis. The oil system seems to be working as advertised. The oil system retain oil in the swing-arm for a hot check and even retains some oil in the swingarm overnight. Buell and Santa Fe HD have come through and fixed the problem. | ||
| Froggy |
Cool, that is good to hear. Hopefully that is all it is to resolve this issue | ||
| Buellnick |
The new oil pump is in and its better but still not the same as older XB oil systems. I suggest that anyone affected by oil system problems contact your local dealer or drop me an email with the specifics about your bike and oil system problem. I will forward to an individual who has been taking the lead on this with BMC. REMEMBER... If your oil vacates the swing arm shortly after shutdown IT'S NOT NORMAL. EB said so... Tell your dealer to contact BMC. | ||
| Snakebreak |
(Yes, I'm checking it on the stand per the owner's manual and waiting 3-5 minutes after a ride to check it hot but letting the oil flow into the reservoir first.) So was the kickstand really all the way out? If I just put the stand down in the garage it does not fully engage unless I move the bike backwards. I have checked oil level both ways and it makes a two diamond difference for me. I only put in 2.5 qrts and it is two diamonds with the stand fully forward, and no diamonds when it is "just down". Just a thought. | ||
| Buellnick |
For me - waiting means the oil flows back into the engine... within a couple of minutes. I usually restart the motor, turn it off and then check it... I found readings to be more consistent that way. As for the kickstand, I have always measured it with the kickstand down and forward (bike pulled back to the lowest position or lean)...if you know what I mean... I never varied the kickstand position. It seems that less lean would give you a lower reading. | ||
| Snakebreak |
Too bad that is not the problem. You are right less lean lower reading. I am not used to checking oil on the stand, so I can imagine others might have the same problem as I did. I actually thought I was responding to a more current post from someone who just bought a new Ulysses. Sorry. | ||
| Buellnick |
I've been told all the the new oil system XB bikes (2008-2009) are letting oil flow back into the motor to some degree or another. Some keep oil in the swing arm for hours and some lose it within minutes. The oil is in there but it makes for frustratingly inconsistent oil checks and increases the possibility of an overfill -or worse - if you ignore it. | ||
| Keith_mahoney |
My 08XT just starting doing this. I have about 2200 miles on it and can not get the oil level even above the word "ADD" without filling my airbox with oil. Most of the time I can not even get a reading on the stick. It's very frustrating. | ||
| Mesozoic |
My '08 XB12Ss drains the oil within 2 seconds of shutting it off. The only way I can get a good reading now is to check the oil with the engine running! | ||
| Froggy |
Just an update to this regarding checking the oil, on 2008+ bikes you should use the new method listed in the 2010 owners manual: http://www.buell.com/om/99474-10Y_en/file-6.asp#hd topic001324
| ||
| Buellnick |
I feel better about my testing...and results... I started doing this as the only way to get consistent readings. Now it is official. After two+ years, HD finally published a corrected method. Good to know it is published in the manual. Spread the word... |
