| Author | Message | ||
     Vagelis46 |
Alessio, I was in Misano last year. This year my XB is broken down, so I decided to watch it on TV. I will never forget the road from Firenze to Forli, the atmosphere and the scenery...........Italy is GREAT, and I had a great time last year. I am thinking visiting Rome for the WSBK Valelunga race. I wish this year's motoGP race is much better than last year's. ROSSI FANS, give Stoner a break with this "whinger" thing. Is this a Brit thing ?? He is just trying to win, like the rest of the top riders. | ||
| Alessio66xb12r |
let me know when you will be around here | ||
| Lledlaw |
"give Stoner a break with this "whinger" thing. Is this a Brit thing ??" win the championship by winning races not by moaning about your tyres, the bike or other riders. Everybody has the same problems. | ||
| Trojan |
Seems like Rossi's tactic of 'beating up' Stoner at Laguna has had exactly the effect he hoped for. Stoner now knows that he is not going to beat Rossi when it comes to fairing bashing close racing, so his only recourse is to try and build a big lead in the early stages of the race before Rossi gets fully up to speed. Unfortunately for Casey that tactic failed at Brno and has failed once again today when he pushed the front too hard and crashed yet again for the third straight race in a row. It also shows a huge weakness in the Ducati qualifying mentality, as they spend all their time concentrating on grabbing pole position but don't do many laps on hard race tyres. Pole is great but gets no points and doesn't win championships  Rossi now has a 75 point lead going to Indianapolis, and it would be a brave man to bet against him taking his 6th (and greatest) MotoGP title. US riders didn't have a great weekend, with Hayden failing to start because of his foot inury and Hopkins failing to attend for first practice, allegedly for 'personal reasons'. He followed this up with a last position in the race so won't be too popular at Kawasaki right now. It is strongly rumoured that Kawasaki will indeed field a 3rd bike next year and that Toni Elias has signed to ride for them. Given that Elias has finished on the podium and top Ducati rider in the last two races on the Alice Ducati maybe he (and his current team) will reconsider his position in the next few fays! Rumour has it that Ben Spies will ride for the JIR Scott Honda team next year, replacing Dovizioso, who in turn will take Hayden's ride at HRC. Hayden will of course announce his Ducati contract at Indy, and it will be interesting to see how he gest on sharing a garage with Stoner. Last and best rumour of the weekend: Pedrosa will test Bridgestone tyres on his HRC Honda tomorrow, which could be a sign that they are considering a switch half way through the season. This would be without precedent and could also backfire on them without a winters development time to get used to them and to change the bike to suit the Bridgestones. Michelin actually performed very well today, with Lorenzo picking up 2nd spot and with honours equal for the top ten riders (5 Bridgestone & 5 Michelin in the top ten positions), so a move now could be a bad thing indeed. | ||
| Alessio66xb12r |
to change the bike to suit the Bridgestones WHY ?? are Bridgestones wider ?? | ||
| Lledlaw |
Great race today. That ducati maybe fast but riding it on the edge for the full GP distance seems to be the issue here as fatique gets the better of the rider. As Rossi got quicker Stoner matched him but the Ducati gets more difficult to ride; it exhausted Stoner and he made a mistake therefore. Is it Rossi beating up Stoner or is it the Ducati? Rossi's Yamaha looks very composed but the Ducati skips all over the track and that front end just washed out yet again. Got to be the sign of greatness on Rossi's part, not the head games but the ability to ride on the edge for the full distance. There have been lots of riders that can pull out a huge lead only to tire and get caught. Pedrosa has similar problems with Rossi, Rossi is able to maintain massive pressure on a leadng rider and the resulting shootout (Rossi Vs. Pedrosa) usual has Rossi as the victor. The difference is Pedrosa understands that limit and backs off, better to have 2nd than a DNF by throwing the bike down the road. Stoner still hasn't learned that lesson and he wasn't called "Rolling Stoner" for nothing. Last year the Ducati was way too quick to be caught and chassis quality played less of part in the outcome of that championship. This year the Yamaha is almost as quick and easier to ride. I don't know much about tyre tech but the way in which power is transmitted through them creates heat and therefore altering pressures (regardless of what's in them dry air or nitrogen), heat distoring shape and plasticity and compound breakdown. Given different riding styles, engine, chassis characteristics and track abrastion putting Bridgstones or Michelins on a bike might make the difference: Lets see how Pedrosa gets on in the forthcoming experiment. At this level of the sport minute advantages make winners or loosers but I doubt id I could tell the difference. (Message edited by lledlaw on September 01, 2008) | ||
| Diablo1 |
Bridgestones have been consistently better than Michelin over the last two seasons. It would be foolish to stick with the likely poorer tire at any race. They said Rossi would be making a mistake too when he switched tires. Obviously, it was a smart move. I'd be shocked if Pedrosa didn't see his finishes improve on the Stones immediately. | ||
| Jaimec |
The one advantage Pedrosa has over Rossi regarding the tire switch is that Bridgestone already has PLENTY of data on his bike thanks to the Gresini team (which has run Bridgestones on the Hondas for two seasons now). Rossi had to start at "Ground Zero" because Bridgestone had NO data at all on the YZF-M1. Pedrosa should've finished out the year on the Michelins. And I see Stoner is back to the form of which I'm most familier: Binning it BIG TIME during the race. Harkens back to his days on the 990cc Honda! | ||
| Trojan |
It has been confirmed today that Pedrosa will switch to Bridgestone tyres for the remainder of the 2008 season (which must have cost HRC a fortune in contractual payemnts to Michelin!). Nicky Hayden has been left out of the equation and will have to struggle on with the Michelins, and probably without any further factory development on those tyres. However, Pedrosa is unlikely to find an immediate benefit just by switching tyre manufacturer, and will have to change the setup of his bike entirely to suit the new rubber. There are big differences between the two brands in terms of handling and setup, and Rossi had all winter to make the switch and still needed the first few races of 08 to get it right. Pedrosa doesn't have the luxury of winter testing and will be going to Indy on the back of just one test at Misano today. HRC did have some data from Nakano's Bridgestone shod Honda, but not at the sharp end of the field and not with lightweight Pedrosa aboard. Bridgestone race chief Hiroshi Yamada said: “I don’t think Dani will find it easy. I don’t think he will get good results immediately but the motivation is important and it might not matter about tyre performance. "But Valentino had to spend a lot of time and effort working to make the Yamaha suit our tyres and he had much longer than Dani to make an impression.” Yamada was forced to delay his flight back to Japan to attend Pedross’s debut today in Misano and he added: “At the moment he will use standard tyres in the test, and maybe he has to continue with this for Indianapolis. "I doubt he can have the same tyres as Valentino and Casey (Stoner) in time for Indianapolis. Valentino spent a lot of time adapting the Yamaha to our standard tyres in testing before we started making some specific things for him, so I anticipate it being the same for Dani, although we have some information from Honda and the Gresini team about tyre performance with that bike.” I would see this is a statement of intent for 2009 rather than a bid to rescue Hondas abyssmal 2008 season, and it does not bode well for Michelin at all in the series next year. | ||
| Azxb9r |
I would think that Lorenzos second place finish is an indication that Michelin is not completely dead. Changing tires mid-season is just going to make Pedrosa cry. He would be better off sticking it out with Michelin for the remainder of the season, then switching next year. I got a kick out of Lorenzos post-race interview, where he commented on trying to keep pace with Rossi. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
It will be great to see Hayden on the Ducati next year. Ducati made a good choice. Good luck Nicky. | ||
| 12r |
Or will he become another victim of the 'Stoner bike' ? | ||
| Trojan |
Or will he become another victim of the 'Stoner bike' ? Judging by the (lack of) performance of other well qualified Ducati riders who have failed toget the bike to work for them, that is a distinct possibility of course. However the form of the Alice Ducatis recently would suggest that the bike has been made a little more user friendly, adn that it is not a one man bike any longer. Melandri has just totally lost confidence in the bike so is not a good benchmark for how the bike has/has not improved any more. He is just wanting the season to end as fast as possible so that he can start testing with Kawasaki, and certainly won't be pushing himself or the bike to any great lengths if he can avoid it. His 19th and last place at Indy would suggest that he really didn't want to be there at all (and who can blame hime in those conditions). We already know that if Ducati had agreed to release him early he would already have been a Kawasaki rider after Laguna, so he has no loyalty left with Ducati. I hope that Nicky can get the bike to start working for him, but I don't think he can expect any assistance from his 'team mate'once again, and I'm sure if Hayden starts to get close to Stoner then the whinging will start and Stoner may even insist on his number one status being strictly observed. If Hayden can't get on with the Ducati then I would expect 2009 to be his last season in MotoGP (regardless of what his contract says). | ||
| Rocketsprink |
It was great to see Stoner in person yesterday not being able to run with the top two riders. Looked like he was struggling. Rossi and Hayden had a great battle going for a while, but you could tell it was only a matter of time before Rossi passed him. You could just tell he was waiting him out, looking for the weak spots. I give Hayden credit. Still getting around on crutches or a cane. The race ended kinda crappy. But I was there. The conditions got bad. Then 60mph wind gusts. Some fans were injured when a vendor tent blew away. Smart choice to end it when they did. Kinda disappointed about the 250's, but again, the right choice. | ||
| Sd26 |
Rain's about risk, period. Great equalizer? A very, very good rider that I know said to me once, "If rain were the great equalizer, then I would still win, just not by as much." And did they completely cancel the 250 race? | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Yes. 250 race was canceled. Not rescheduled for today that I know of. | ||
| Blake |
"If Hayden can't get on with the Ducati then I would expect 2009 to be his last season in MotoGP (regardless of what his contract says)." If you ever miss a chance to slag Nick Hayden, I may fall off my chair.  Ben Spies did good. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Ben Spies surprised a lot of people. Me included. Being that the AMA is a bunch of wussies and don't usually ride in the rain. | ||
| Azxb9r |
Definitely a good showing by Spies... the top finishing Suzuki. Great ride by Hayden too. Blakes face has got to hurt from smiling so much after watching Pedrosa go backwards through the field.  Lorenzo looks like he is getting comfortable with Moto GP. Two podiums in a row, could be bad news for the rest of the field.(except Rossi) | ||
| Crusty |
Blakes face has got to hurt from smiling so much after watching Pedrosa go backwards through the field. His isn't the only one. Terri and I both think the little dweeb deserves that kind of showing. | ||
| Trojan |
If you ever miss a chance to slag Nick Hayden, I may fall off my chair. I'm not slagging Hayden, he's a nice guy. However he is far from the top of his game, and I am just stating what is pretty obvious to most impartial observers. Since winning the championship in 2006 he has failed to shine and has only got on the podium sporadically. One of the reasons why Pedrosa became the number one rider and the focus of HRC's development was that his style is more suited to the 800 bikes than Haydens. Results have borne this out since his arrival at the team too. The Ducati ride is a poison chalice, and will either return Hayden to the top 5 or will be the end of his career. He has been out of form for too long now for other top teams to take a risk on him I believe (there was hardly a cavalry charge by the other top teams to sign him up since it was clear that HRC would let him go). The occasional podium position is not enough to keep him on the teams radar when there are other talented young riders coming through from other classes. The whole team setup up at Ducati is focussed on one lead rider and one back up. If Hayden wants equal treatment with Stoner then that will have to change significantly over the winter and his early results next year will have to be up there with Stoner/Rossi/Lorenzo etc. If they are not then I predict he will soon be relegated to the role of second rider. If he beats Stoner then the Aussie is likely to be less friendly than he appears to be now towards Hayden, and Stoner is not exactly known for sharing information with team mates is he? Lastly, as far as I can make out, Haydens Ducati contract is for 2009 only. If he is released at the end of that where does he go? By that time Dovizioso will have his feet firmly under the table at HRC alongside Pedrosa, Rossi & Lorenzo are in no hurry to leave Yamaha and there will be another batch of young hungry ex-250 & Superbike champions making the leap up to MotoGP and vying for top team places. Hayden will be lucky to be picked up by a satelite team at best, and may decide that he doesn't want to waste his last years in MotoGP making up the places on inferior machinery. | ||
| Jaimec |
Despite winning the championship in 2006, Honda has always treated Nicky as their #2 rider. It's been obvious to anyone paying attention that Honda put ALL of their resources into developing Dani Pedrosa, as they believe HE is the one who will dethrone Rossi. Why else would they allow Pedrosa to continue acting like he had a chance at the championship rather than act like a supporting rider in 2006? Why else develop a bike obviously built for a midget than one built for a rider of normal proportions? Nicky said when he first saw the RC212 he thought he was being punk'd! Despite Honda constantly treating Nicky like a second class citizen, he's never said a bad word about them and likely never will. He has a lot more class than HRC ever will. Honda HAD a rider who could dethrone Rossi... they blew it. I'm with Blake, I just LOVE seeing Pedrosa blow it! | ||
| Trojan |
Why else develop a bike obviously built for a midget than one built for a rider of normal proportions? That was just a direct result of the change to the 800cc regulations. Every MotoGp bike got smaller and lighter when the changed the rules, not just Honda. It is also apparent that other Honda `riders haven't suffered the same problems adapting as Nicky has. Andrea Dovizioso has been quick from the start on what is supposed to be an 'inferior' RCV212V and has comprehensively outscored Hayden all year. Others such as De Angelis and De Puniet have shown on occasions that they can also be quick if they can stay on the bike, so the problems should not all be laid at Honda's door. Michelin is probably a bigger villain than Honda in this saga, although Hayden has been treated shockingly by Honda for a while (as has Melandri at Ducati, which should be a warning as to what happens if you don't perform there). The extra corner speed of the 800 and the necessary change in riding style is what blew Hayden's chances simply because he could not adapt to the riding style necessary to get the best out of the new bike. Other riders such as Colin Edwards also struggled to change their style for the new bikes for a while, whilst those riders used to racing in the 250 class (Stoner, Pedrosa, Rossi etc) adapted straight away. It is interesting to see how well Nicky did in the rain at Indy because it gave him the chance to ride the 800 in the way that the old 990 bikes needed. i.e. sliding the rear and getting the bike stood up and nailing the throttle. In the dry at Indy I don't think he would have figured on the podium. Whether he can adapt his style to the Ducati and to Bridgestone tyres remains to be seen. | ||
| Clarkjw |
The bikes didn't get lighter. They weren't allowed to drop weight. I've heard nothing of Marco getting poor treatment. | ||
| Vagelis46 |
"If he beats Stoner then the Aussie is likely to be less friendly than he appears to be now towards Hayden, and Stoner is not exactly known for sharing information with team mates is he? " Which top rider is known to share information and set-up details ??? Rossi ?? Pedrosa ?? I am sure the answer is noone. They are all busy trying to find the extra advantage, and they are not about to share it. Ducati is definately a bigger bike than Honda. It should suit Hayden better. Hayden sliding the rear on that long left corner at Indy was great to watch. He deserves a factory bike. | ||
| Trojan |
Which top rider is known to share information and set-up details ??? Rossi ?? Pedrosa ?? Rossi (and others in the same teams) has always shared certain information with his team mates over the years, and this was especially evident when he was teamed with Colin Edwards as both had full access to all team data (as do Edwards/Toseland). The only reason that informations isn't shared in the Yamaha garage now is that they run different tyres. However, all of the riders prefer different race setups, so just using Rossis/Pedrosas/Haydens bike settings won't automatically work for other riders. | ||
| Bads1 |
Same thing going on at Honda camp. The curtain is closed on the account of tires being used by Pedrosa. | ||
| Gaesati |
As i contemplate the amount of Stoner and Hayden and Pedrosa bagging going on here it occurs to me to make a few observations and make some inferences: 1. The ducati is a "screamer" engine the yamaha is a "big bang" or "droner" 2. "Screamers" make more power but are harder to ride and require more skill. They do not lend themselves to the cut and thrust of close racing because of the nature of their power delivery. 3. Stoner is adept at getting the best out of this configuration. He displays this by consistently outperforming all other ducati riders except for Elias when he is occasionally in manic mode. 4. The correct tactic for ducati and Stoner is to make a break from the start and attempt to hold it at 5 seconds or so until the final laps of the race. This preserves the ducati's tyres from being shredded and enables Stoner to capitalise on the bike's strength. 5. Rossi, in the years I have followed him, is sensitive enough to get away with a harder grade of rubber than most other racers. His engines have tended to be set up as "droners" 6. Rossi's favoured tactic has been to run in the top three for most of the race and apply pressure to the leader. By the end of the race, his tyres still have a reserve and he can push forward for the win provided he is close enough. 7. If it comes to a tussle early in the race his vast ability and the setup of his machine will give him the upper hand.(laguna) 8. Rossi is adept at psyching out his opponents as Doohan, Rainey and Lawson were. Witness his destruction of Gibernau and Biaggi. Laguna gave him the opprtunity to put heavy pressure on Stoner and force Stoner into the kind of race he, Rossi, wanted. 9. I think Stoner responded in the next 2 races by trying to break clear and using tyres as hard as Rossi's to ensure Rossi could not make a charge late in the race. 10. Early on Rossi's response after Stoner pulled out three seconds or so was to up the pace by a few tenths. Stoner had to meet and improve on this challenge to ensure Rossi couldn't get close. Eventually, Stoner was pushed to the point of crashing because his lap times early in th e race had to be better than Rossi could manage. 12. With respect to Stoner being a "whinger" . How much whinging did Rossi do when it was obvious that Bridgestones were working for Stoner in 2007? How much whinging did Rossi do about Gibernau and Biaggi or close passes by Elias? How much evidence is there of Rossi punting Gibernau? Close racing is close racing and whinging is part of it. Whinging never broke anybody's bones but hard block passing and taking other people's lines or forcing them wide sometimes does. Lastly, the couple of times I have seen Hayden race close up as opposed to on TV have really impressed. He is fast, smooth and safe even when on inferior equipment. I think he will be an asset to the ducati squad and will certainly do better than the other ducati riders. | ||
| Trojan |
2. "Screamers" make more power but are harder to ride and require more skill. They do not lend themselves to the cut and thrust of close racing because of the nature of their power delivery. Not necessarily true. Most of the closest racing we have seen in GP racing over the years has been between screamer style engines, although there have been some epic 'big bang' battles as well. Look back to the days of the 500 two strokes and they were pretty much all screamers with waifer thin power bands (until Honda spoilt the party with their big bang motor), yet produced superb racing. 3. Stoner is adept at getting the best out of this configuration. He displays this by consistently outperforming all other ducati riders except for Elias when he is occasionally in manic mode. Again not entirely true. Stoner is the best at getting the most out of the Ducati electronics package, not the engine configuration. Stoner has always been notoriously aggressive and hard on his equipment (in his 125 days Harald Bartol had to develop a new fuel injection system to stop Stoner over revving the engine, despite the slipper clutch, when he banged down too many gears into corners). When he rode Honda's 'big bang' 4 stroke he fell off more often than he stayed on and was fast but erratic. The difference now is that the bike will not let him be aggressive with the throttle, no matter how hard he tries, and will only give him the power it thinks is required at any given moment. He can whack the throttle open in the middle of a corner and the bike will sort it out for him. It is no coincidence that all of Stoners race crashes have been front end lowsides rather than throttle induced high side accidents. He is the only rider for Ducati that has been able to adapt to this level of electronic control, although the others are now getting better. Toni Elias' best result on the Alice Ducati came when the electronics played up and he had to rely on his right hand for throttle control instead of the ECU! 9. I think Stoner responded in the next 2 races by trying to break clear and using tyres as hard as Rossi's to ensure Rossi could not make a charge late in the race. When Rossi switched to Bridgestones they actually used exactly the same tyres that Stoner was using to start with. Over the winter they even changed the chassis setup of the Yamaha to copy that of Stoners Ducati. As time has gone on he has adapted the tyres to his own spec. Although the race commentaries may say that two riders are using the same compound, the actual tyres vary enormously between different riders. Tyres are now almost bespoke for each top rider, so Rossi may favour a softer left side or more side grip than other riders for instance. At Laguna both Rossi & Stoner were using the same basic compound because it was the only one capable of surviving the heat for full race distance. How much whinging did Rossi do when it was obvious that Bridgestones were working for Stoner in 2007? Rossi complained about his Michelin tyres, NOT about how he was 'unfairly overtaken' by anyone else on Bridgestones, or that someone in his team had set the bike up wrong or picked the wrong tyre for him, or that he had been baulked by slower riders (or all the other excuses that Stoner has used so far this season). The evidence about the Rossi/Gibernau clash at the Spanish GP is clear. Gibernau left a gap and Rossi took it. If Gibernau had taken a tighter line (impossible because he carried too much corner speed) then Rossi would have been helpless and would have lost. Gibernau tried to get back into the inside line and that is where the two riders clashed. It was a hard move but a perfectly fair one, and that was borne out by the stewards at the meeting. Whinging never broke anybody's bones but hard block passing and taking other people's lines or forcing them wide sometimes does. The dangerous riders are not the leading guys, but those 'second string' riders who think that they can brake later than everyone else to make up 5 or 6 places in a single corner, then end up taking out half the field when they can't stop! 'Block passing' as you call it, and taking the racing line (not taking other peoples lines) are part and parcel of close racing. They are all big boys and know the risks involved. If they don't like close contact racing they know that they can always take up knitting or drag racing | ||
| Trojan |
Rizla Suzuki have confirmed that they will run a third bike at the forthcoming Japanese GP at Motegi. However, in what must seem a final slap in the face for Ben Spies the rider next wekend will be local rider Kousuke Akiyoshi. He has ridden four times in the MotoGp for Suzuki, with a best result of 13th in 2006. After Spies excellent result at Indianapolis he must wonder what he has to do to get a full time ride with the team (other than lower his wage demands of course!). I would now expect to see Spies riding in WSB next year instead of MotoGP, and would certainly expect him to part company with Suzuki next year, wherever he ends up racing. |
