| Author | Message | ||
     Buellnick |
A number of late model (2008-2009) XB model bikes have been experiencing oil level issues. You may have a problem if you are unable to get an accurate and consistent reading - even after following the exact directions in the owners manual. The problem appears to be that the oil is not staying in the swingarm but is running back into the engine. In my case, I check the oil immediately after engine stop and get a reading. Within two minutes and several successive oil readings the oil falls below the cross-hatched area. In about five minutes the oil is about 1/4 inch on the dipstick. In about 20mins there is no oil visible on the dipstick. This is an issue that I am currently addressing with Santa Fe HD/Buell in Santa Fe, NM. The dealer attempted to address the issue and changed the checkball on the bike - NO Change. The dealer service techs have not experienced such a problem with Buell XB bikes, however, except for the the check ball replacement; they have been restricted from performing any other exploratory or diagnostic work. The dealer contacted Buell Tech and was told that as long as there was good pressure and the oil ran back into the swingarm there is no cause for concern. I believe this is an unacceptable answer. I cannot get an accurate or consistent oil level reading and I have no way of knowing how much oil is in the bike. I am gathering info on the bikes identified as having the oil level issue discussed in the forum. This issue has been discussed in both XB and Knowledge Vault areas of BADWEB. Please provide your VIN to me via e-mail -or- if you don't mind, just post it on BADWEB. You can also provide the VIN directly to MurraeBueller on BADWEB. Murrae is a the lead Buell Coordinator (amongst other things) at Santa Fe HD/Buell (SFHD/B) in Santa Fe, NM. SFHD/B is attempting to address this issue on my behalf with senior Buell management and tech personnel. THANKS! | ||
| Moosestang |
If the oil won't stay in the swingarm, then how can you change the oil? I thought about this when i changed my oil. How much oil stays in the engine? | ||
| Jaimec |
Is the swingarm/oil tank that different from the '06 and '07 models? I've never noticed this on my '06, and as far as I am aware, nothing has changed in the swingarm with the later models? Or does it have something to do with the redesigned engines from '08 and onward? | ||
| Buellnick |
Good Question... I cannot say for sure since I have never personally changed the oil on this bike. I have pre-paid maintenance. However, the dealer has performed the initial 1k, 2500 and now 5000 mi oil changes. I am working on faith and hope that sufficient oil is in the bike. The dealer service tech has not mentioned any difficulty with oil changes. The dealer service techs acknowledge the that they too cannot get an accurate or consistent oil level reading. I suspect that when the oil starts to flow out the bottom of the swingarm, it eventually drains most of the oil. | ||
| Buellnick |
The oil system routing is different on 08-09 models. The swingarm is the same. | ||
| Swordsman |
Man, the more I hear about these new models, the happier I am that I have an '06. If they keep this up, Buell's reputation is headed right back to the dumps. They were SO close to having everything nailed down with the XB's, and now it's like they're starting all over again... but it's the same bike!? ~SM | ||
| Froggy |
Yes the oiling system was significantally changed for 2008. The swingarm is the same. | ||
| Jaimec |
There was a thread about the best year for Buells. I stand by my statement of the '06 model year being the best. | ||
| Buellnick |
If anyone is affected by this oil level issue please post or let me know by e-mail. | ||
| Punkid8888 |
06 all the way | ||
| Eicas |
This is a problem with many "dry sump" engines, that is engines with remote oil tanks. Most jet engines have this same problem and the engineers have not been able to fix them either, so they demand an oil check within a time limit after the engine is shut down, usually less than 30 minutes. Problem is that the oil seeps out of the tank into the case where it can't be read. When our pilots complained about low oil quantity indications, we would just fire up the engine and run it for 5 minutes, and everything checked good. Buell's fly, so treat them like an airplane. Best to just check the oil level after a ride. If you are doing an oil change, it should be done with the oil warm, so go for a ride first, ..... then change it "hot" and you will get most of it. My '08 XB12Ss tank reads empty or low after a while, my old Sportster did the same thing. My Honda has a wet sump so it is not affected by this characteristic. No harm since the scavenge pump will pump the oil back into the tank as soon as you start it. | ||
| Buellnick |
Eicas, Your comment..."My '08 XB12Ss tank reads empty or low after a while, my old Sportster did the same thing." This is not what its supposed to do. Your bike is not functioning normally. Check the owner's manual. This is an anomalous condition that needs to be addressed. You should not have to live with inaccurate or inconsistent oil level readings. In my case, hot oil checks are inconsistent and the oil level drops below the cross-hatched area in about two minutes. What happens when you assume there is enough oil but there isn't? I think its important for all affected to bring the problem to the attention of your dealers. In this case, you should also provide the VIN to SFHD/B (as previously mentioned). N | ||
| Greenlantern |
Question, does anybody know if the new oil line routing changed the oil tank's(swingarm) Low point in relation to the motor crankcase? It is my understanding that most dry sump set ups will drain the tank within a short period of time after the bike is turned off and cooled. I do not know if this was "engineered" out of existence with Buell's utilization of the Swingarm as a tank, but I know a ball check would not be a utilized as a anti siphon device as there is no Atmospheric break in the design, It would only be utilized in a "direction of flow" application.I make it a habit to check Oil 5 minutes after a ride of 30 minutes or more. I get consistent readings every time, but if I check 20-30 minutes later I get about 2/3 the reading on dipstick. when bike has sat cold for a couple of days or more this reading becomes half. Since I know the level was correct at last check and I don't have a recreation of the Valdez in my garage I run the bike as normal making sure to take a reading at my first scheduled stop (gas, munchies, All American Burger..) It is always on the mark from the last "hot" check. I know this does not address your Buellnick , just my .02 and a question about dry sumps. | ||
| Akbuell |
Buellnick: Received your PM, and want to say thanks for being considered. My '08 TT has a build date of Aug 07, and I do not have an oil level issue, so not much help w/your problem, I'm afraid. An experiment comes to mind: Drill out the center of an oil drain plug, and install a nipple. Attach 18in of clear plastic tubing, and tiewrap or tape the open end to the pass peg support, or the seat subframe. Install on a bike known to not have issues, and take it for a ride of an hour or so. Just a nice putt around town. Stop every 10mins or so, leave the engine running, and look to see what is happening w/the oil level. When back to the starting point, let the bike sit and watch it for 5mins, noting what happens every minute. Then go do something for an hour, and see where the level is when the machine has had a chance to cool. Record your results. Then install the plug/tube on a bike known to have issues, and repeat, riding the same route and doing the same checks. Could result in useful info, which may answer some questions. Being sure, of course, that each bike had the correct amount of oil in it at the start. And the bigger the sample, the more the info will be valid. | ||
| Voofighters |
Hey Buellnick, I sent you an PM with my VIN. Thanks for bringing this up. | ||
| Jeffroj |
My 07 12s is doing this also. This morning I added a little oil during my pre-ride check, because it was a little below the range. Got to work and checked it hot and it was way above range, had to cyphen the extra oil out til it was in good range. 1 hour later its back down to the bottom of the range. Is this just the difference between cold and hot check or am I having this same problem with an 07? | ||
| Eldredma |
It happens on my '08 Scg. The first time I checked it (before a long ride) I added oil because it was low; checked it after letting it idle for a while and wound up with a mess! I agree with Eicas' assessment; whether it should be happening is another thing though. Good luck getting Buell to own up to any problems though... those with poor mileage on an '08 know that. | ||
| Jaimec |
Jeffroj: What you're seeing is NORMAL. You're supposed to check the oil level when the engine is HOT. What is being discussed here is checking the oil HOT and getting a different reading each time, something that doesn't happen on my '06. Measure your oil hot (right after shutting the bike down). Let it cool, then take it for another ride and check the oil again. If you do this several times and get the same reading each time, you don't have a problem. | ||
| Petereid |
My XT is an April 08 and as long as I check it asap after shutting down I get consistant readings. Leave it for 5 minutes or so and it will read low. | ||
| Rick_a |
As has been mentioned this is a common issue with dry sump engines. Check your oil immediately after shutoff and at operating temperature. Problem solved. Isn't that what the manual states? I've even seen seasoned techs pour extra oil into Buells and Harleys that've been sitting a few days and make a real mess. | ||
| Buellnick |
This problem concerns inconsistent and inaccurate readings during a hot check. It is about oil vacating the swingarm minutes after shut down. If your bike is doing these things then it is not a "normal" situation. Those affected can post their situation and provide their VIN. The VIN will be forwarded to an individual at SFHD/B who is in contact with Buell MC regarding this issue. Thanks! | ||
| Buellnick |
Akbuell, Interesting experiment idea... My BMW has a clear tube running from the bottom of the oil reservoir to the top. Purpose? ...to visually observe oil presence and oil level. Hopefully, Buell will address the issue and the plastic tube experiment will not be necessary... I have high hopes and expectations of my favorite MC company... To all... keep those posts and e-mails coming. | ||
| Akbuell |
I was a motorcycle tech back in the days when we were called mechanics, and I find this problem to be quite interesting. Would most likely be trying to solve it on my own time. Which may be why I got into law enforcement. LOL FWIW, I believe the problem will be found in the scavenge side of the oil system. There don't seem to be any feed problems reported, like the oil light flickering on, or intermittent engine noise from "soft" lifters, ect. Meaning the oil is getting where it should, just not getting back in a timely manner. I would be looking at the vent line and fittings, the return line and fittings, ect. | ||
| Buellnick |
Akbuell, Agree, my thoughts exactly... The problems has to be with the return line, vent line, or the oil pump assembly itself. In fact, the dealer mentioned the oil pump assembly as a possibility but they cannot go exploring until BMC gives the OK... I wonder what the tubes inside the swingarm look like? Could these have been damaged during manufacturing? As for the pump, it can be pulled out, inspected, and replaced (if necessary) rather easily. The dealer is waiting for another answer from BMC. | ||
| Moosestang |
Just for the hell of it, I checked my oil before I road the bike. It's been sitting for 2 days and the level showed full to a little over full. About oil feed problems. I used a pure one oil filter for a 99 corolla and i'm a little worried that it will clog easier or restrict flow some due to the 20w50 oil, I assume a Toyota corolla doesn't use this viscosity. Is this a valid concern? | ||
| Dipstick |
Buellnick, I have an 08XB12S and it too has oil level issues. With the proper amount of oil it just touches the bottom of the dip stick when cold. When I first start it up in the morning and then shut it off after 30 seconds it then reads near the top of the operating range. After a 30 mile ride to work it reads again near the top of the operating range right after shut down but 20 min. later it just barely touches the bottom of the stick. There is no doubt the oil is leaking back in to the engine and this when the oil temp. is still at 150 degrees. It does not appear to be temperature related. My dealer here in Beaumont, Texas said they would replace the check valve if I want but it seems after your experience it would do little good. They also told me that most of the XB series have this issue to some degree.  | ||
| Buellnick |
Dipstick, Your problem sounds similar but not quite as severe. At least it appears you are getting consistent readings right after shutdown. The check valve may make yours better - maybe. If they are willing to change it (under warranty), do it and see what happens. Keep talking with your dealer and stay tuned to BADWEB. I'll let you know what happens on this end. | ||
| Jettdawg |
This makes me wonder what happens when you change your oil? Might you not get as much out if you don't drain it at the right time? Like, wait too long after warming it up and leave a 1/2 qt of dirty oil in the engine... then overfill it by putting in the recommended 2.5 qts. I have an '09 12Ss and really haven't been checking the oil in the same circumstances each time, so I can't say if I have the problem... gonna start keeping close track now... | ||
| Cityxr |
So, I recently picked up a new 2008 Firebolt, and experienced this same problem. At home, I would check the oil after I shut off the engine, and it would barely register on the dipstick. I checked at the gas station down the road and it was right in the middle of the hashes. The difference in the check though, is that at home, when I shut the bike off, I push it forward and backwards, trying to park it in the nook in front of my car. At the gas station, I'm able to shut it off and check the dipstick almost immediately. My theory is that by moving the bike and tilting it around the oil is moving between the engine and swingarm, and not giving me an accurate reading. With the perfectly flat and level gas station and quick check, I'm getting an accurate and consistent reading. Part of the instructions in the owner manual says to check at every gas stop. I guess they new that us short guys would have problems with accurate checks in the parking lot since it takes us a bit longer to park the bike properly. | ||
| Buellnick |
I talked with the local dealer about this situation...just yesterday. BMC is working the issue. The dealer rep expects something next week. To all who have provided their VINs - THANKS! HOWEVER, I was informed yesterday that in addition to the VIN, your name and mileage will also be required. I'll let you know when it is time to forward this information. The wife just picked-up the bike yesterday...no change re the problem. After an oil change you can use the oil "levels" as a average starting point. The mechanic (sorry, service technician) indicated the problem has to be in the oil pump or lines. However, they're not authorized to go exploring - yet. More to follow... |
