| Author | Message | ||
     Skinstains |
Horse****! the American public are a bunch of wittless drone like morons. Can't you see that they are already putting themselves out of work by buying $2.00 T-shirts in Wallmart. These imbeciles will watch anything someone tells them to. Motorcycle racing has stayed relatively small in this country and that's the way it stays pure. Suzuki is winning on Sunday and you can bet they're selling on Monday. The other three want that market share and will be caught up soon enough. The dumbing/wattering down of "MY" sport pisses me off. I'm ready to pay $100.00 for the Moto-GP on my computer just because CBS has ruined it already. Let all those snaggle toothed skullcookers watch the four wheelers go round and round ! Leave the two wheelers to those of us that appreciate and respect them for what they are. | ||
| José_quiñones |
Having just come back from my annual visit to the AMA Superbike round at VIR this past weekend, I would like to jump in here and share some observations: 1. The Superbike class is an illusion. There are only 9 "Factory" Superbikes, the rest are privateers who don't have access to the parts, tires or fuel that the factories get, or just Superstock spec bikes out chasing contingency money. 2. "Joe the fan" can not tell the difference between Aaron Yates going around the track on his Jordan Suzuki Superbike and on his Jordan Suzuki Superstock bike. They look and sound the same, and they certainly can't tell one is 1.5 seconds faster around the track than the other. If you then tell them that the bike that goes 1.5 seconds faster per lap costs twice to five times as much to prepare as Jordan Suzuki's $120,000 Superstock bike, their expression is priceless. Same goes for Josh Hayes, for example, who won both the 600 Supersport and the Formula Extreme races this weekend on two different spec CBR600RR's that the average fan can't tell one from the other and race within a second of each other per lap. Combine the two 1000 and two 600cc classes down to one each and the program for next year makes a lot more sense, since each class will look, sound and be visibly faster than the other (Red Bull< MotoST<Daytona Superbike<American Superbike). In addition, the current rules which allow riders are to race in classes that look and sound so similar, creates further confusion. Does Troy Bayliss race FIM Superstock? Does any World Superbike rider race in FIM Superstock? NO. They do the equivalent in the AMA. 3. Roger Edmonson knows what he's doing. Having attended his Grand Am/MotoST events in the past, they know how to put on a show and run a fan friendly program. A noticeable improvement over the way the AMA races were run previously at VIR. He's holding most of the cards in this game(NASCA's money to burn, track contracts, sponsorship & promotion opportunities, TV, etc). The factories would be foolish to try to setup their own series. The U.S. is the world's largest Sport Bike market, that's enough incentive to keep the Japanese racing with the new AMA Pro Racing management. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 18, 2008) | ||
| Smoke |
would everyone like to see motorcycle IROC type racing every weekend with the riders riding identically prepared single brand racing? the racing would be close, but at what cost? i like that the best prepared team with the best riders can set the bar for the other racers. if the dmg plan was all about close racing why did they axe the most competitive class? dmg might have everything going according to their plan but i don't think that i will be attending. wera,ahrma,ccs and cmra will be where i plan to spend my money. and moto gp-the most gee whiz, go fast bikes on the roadrace course. have fun and go to the races. tim | ||
| José_quiñones |
http://us.redbullrookiescup.com/ 125cc KTM's on Dunlop tires, pretty exciting from where I was watching. Single brand racing has its place. The main feature of the new DMG American Superbike class will be the leveling effect of using spec tires and fuel, that will create much closer racing than what you have been forced to watch up to this year. Can anybody argue now that it didn't improve WSBK racing? How long until MotoGP does the same thing? ________________________________________________ R.I.P. Red Bull AMA U.S. Rookie Toriano Wilson http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?artic le=33780 (Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 18, 2008) | ||
| Bads1 |
Jose, Thank you soooo much for the input. I don't think Matt will ever get it. I'm tired of just seeing the factory bikes win weekend in and weekend out. | ||
| Trojan |
The main feature of the new DMG American Superbike class will be the leveling effect of using spec tires and fuel, that will create much closer racing than what you have been forced to watch up to this year. Can anybody argue now that it didn't improve WSBK racing? How long until MotoGP does the same thing? The only reason MotoGP will change to a one tyre contract is the fact that Michelin seem unable to stop shooting themselves in the foot. Market forces will force a Bridgestone lock out, not the rule makers. MotoGP is a prototype racing series and a one tyre rul would not be beneficial to the series. The Spec tyre rule has though made WSBK much more exciting, and is doing the same thing in BSB and other domestic Superbike championships. This is because only the very top teams had access to the best tyres under the old rules, unlike MotoGP where pretty much every team has access to teh best their supplier can offer. The biggest reason for Suzuki dominating AMA racing is the current rule structure and the fact that they spend a lot more money than anyone else to do it. When Honda ran the AMA team directly from HRC they also wiped the floor with everyone else simply because they had th ebiggest budget, best team and best riders at the time. AMA rules effectively hamstring Ducati so they don't bother trying. If you want to point a finger at who is to blame for Suzuki dominating the AMA series then point it at Honda/Yamaha/Kawasaki rather than the organisers. There is no need to throw the rule book away and change everything just because one team is dominating the series. If the AMA changed to WSBK rules you'd see a much bigger spread of bikes at the top just as you do in WSBK now. In fact what works best for teams is to keep stability in the rules for as long as possible. This gives engineers time to plan what they will do in future seasons without the fear that their work will be wasted by sudden rule changes (ask Erik Buell how he felt when they changed the rules and left him and his first Buell race bike no series to race in). It also means that the privateer teams benefit from the factory developments sooner and for longer than they do now. If the viewing public don't understand what is going on in front of them maybe it is education they need rather than dumbing down the whole thing. Marketing is a huge part of racing and drawing in crowds. Just look at the viewing figures that MotoGP has grown to in just the last few years since they made the change to 4 stroke racing. This has been achieved not by making the racing simpler to understand, but by marketing the glamour and excitement of the championship. In Britain it is not uncommon to see crowds of 80-100,000 at WSBK races at Brands Hatch every year, and at BSB races the turn out is in the region of 35-40,000 every weekend. This isn't because the rules are easy to follow or because of some new format, but because it is the top flight of UK racing with the best bikes and the best riders taking part. Here we ahve two championships running concurrently. One for the 'factory' teams and a 'Superbike Cup' for the privateer teams, although both are eligible for the overall championship as well. What this does is encourage privateer teams that to take part and still be in with a chance of winning, which in turn encourages sponsors of smaller teams. Changing rules to give a level playing field or slow bikes down has shown time and time again that it it doesn't work. Just look at the lap times being posted by the current generation of 800cc MotoGP bikes compared to the theoretically faster 990 machines. World Superbikes are now faster on 'inferior' spec Pirelli yres tan they were when there was a free tyre choice. It is the factory teams that drive this improvement year on year, not the privateer or dealer entries. What you see working in WSBK will filter down to production bikes pretty quickly these days, but without factory involvement the pace of development will slow to a trickle (if that). It doesn't matter that there may only be 9 'factory' bikes in the top class, what matters is that they are improving things for everyone else that races and rides. I can guarantee you that in 12 months time there will be 2 or 3 teams dominating 'American Superbike', most fans still won't understand how the bikes relate to their showroom model, and the biggest teams will still take home the silverware at the end of the day. Where will DMG go then? | ||
| José_quiñones |
2 or 3? I'll take it it's an improvement over ONE team dominating now! Why did MotoGP switch to four strokes? Because most fans couldn't relate them to their own bikes. The new AMA Superbike rules relate even closer to the showroom model. They plan on having showroom models of the bikes that win the race as part of the podium presentation next year, and all the aftermarket parts used to make them faster will also be things normal people can buy and will be prominently displayed at the races. World Superbike gets along fine without full factory support. They use spec tires. Canadian Superbike gets along fine without full factory support. They use spec tires, fuel and dyno enforced hp limits. AMA Superbike will get along fine with all these features, without full factory support until the factories realize their mistake and come back asking for forgiveness. Racing, especially in the US, is more about marketing than R&D. Why did the Japanese companies hate the first DMG rules proposal? Because it eliminated the 1000cc bikes, the ones they want to sell at the moment. Bike development will continue as it does now, at the companies own private tracks and facilities. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 19, 2008) | ||
| Sd26 |
i like that the best prepared team with the best riders can set the bar for the other racers. if the dmg plan was all about close racing why did they axe the most competitive class? If you're talking "supersport", we can talk again about parts availability. Daytona Superbike is it's replacement, and it will reduce the power that some bikes have. The manufacturer teams have specific advantages. First, the availibility of pre production bikes usually in September/October before the up coming season. I don't see where that makes them "better prepared", but it does give them the opportunity to test as many days as there will be races before a season even starts. Other teams are lucky to receive their season bikes a mere two weeks before Daytona. Those kind of things only represent a restriction of access, not preparation. Special parts. Who can get them? They aren't available to other teams, and there are no alternatives. Again, that has nothing to do with preparation, but it does have to do with the specific manufacturer teams having a predetermined outcome based on their position with the manufacturer/distributor. With those kinds of opportunities in place, no good sponsorship has happened in the AMA series. It's just not marketable. | ||
| Trojan |
2 or 3? I'll take it it's an improvement over ONE team dominating now! Surely it is the same thing? watching 2 teams racing identical bikes is just as boring to fans as watching 2 riders from the same team racing each other. Why did MotoGP switch to four strokes? Because most fans couldn't relate them to their own bikes. Wrong. MotoGP switched to 4 strokes because the dominant force Honda wanted to, and becauswe a move away from 2 strokes was seen as 'environmentally friendly'. This is true again for the 250 class, which is being axed because of pressure from Honda despite the other factories wanting to continue with the present format for a lot longer. It certainly had nothing to do with what the fans wanted or what bikes you can buy in the showroom. KTM and Aprilia are prime examples that show winning on track leads to increased sales in the showroom, even if the bikes being raced are completely different to the ones you can buy. World Superbike gets along fine without full factory support. No it doesn't. There is MASSIVE factory support from all the big 4 manufacturers in WSBK. Even the 'privateer' teams such as Ten Kate recieve direct support from HRC. How do you think the 'small' importer/privateer teams pay for riders such as Carlos Checa, Max Biaggi, Troy Corser, Nori Haga if not by factory support? Canadian Superbike gets along fine without full factory support. They use spec tires, fuel and dyno enforced hp limits. Canadian Superbike is a very minor series compared to the BIG superbike series worldwide, and is not taken seriously outside of Canada simply because it is HP limited and therefore not representative of Superbike racing in general. How many riders graduate from Canadian Superbike to the biger series, and how many riders are lining up wanting rides in teh Canadian series from outside Canada? If you want to see the position of US racing in a few years you would do well to see how much influence Canadian Superbike has now. i.e. NONE. AMA Superbike will get along fine with all these features, without full factory support until the factories realize their mistake and come back asking for forgiveness. That is probably the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. How is it the factories mistake? If the factories pull their support completely, even from 'semi works' or dealer teams how many of them will continue racing at the highest level? The standard of bike and preparation will detioriate faster than you would ever imagine. Racing, especially in the US, is more about marketing than R&D. Why did the Japanese companies hate the first DMG rules proposal? Because it eliminated the 1000cc bikes, the ones they want to sell at the moment. Racing worldwide is about marketing more than R&D. That is why they do it. R&D is just a part of it. If the US does not have a race series for the Jap 1000cc bikes do you honestly think they will stop building them in favour of something else? Bike development will continue as it does now, at the companies own private tracks and facilities. Yes it will, and in WSBK, BSB, MotoGP and other cutting edge championships. These are the championships that will attract the top teams, riders, sponsors and this development will filter down to other 'second string' race series and into road bikes, so American Superbike will eventually benefit from that as well. What DMG will lose are the top teams that drive that development in the first place as well as the big names that attract the sponsors and teams now. These are the teams that make racing the glitzy spectacle it is, not the privateer teams making up the numbers. There is already one all American team taking their money elsewhere and entered for WSBK next year with Ducati. I would expect to see more make the switch over the coming months, leaving the US scene stripped of its brightest stars and best teams. It would certainly not surprise me to see Yoshimura Suzuki abandon the US race scene completely for WSBK either. If you think that is progress you are sadly mistaken in my opinion. What DMG want to do is to get Joe Average PAYING to sit and watch motorcycle racing. They do not care about the R&D development, the sponsors, the riders or the manufacturers, or much anything outside of profit, loss and total control. This is such a short term vision that I cannot understand why you don't see where it leads to and how the sport will suffer. | ||
| Jlnance |
would everyone like to see motorcycle IROC type racing every weekend with the riders riding identically prepared single brand racing? the racing would be close, but at what cost? Not exclusively, but it certainly has it's place. In that type of environment it's the ride alone who makes the difference. There is something about that that just moves people. I think it goes confusing as you move away from that, what portion of winning do you want to be due to the rider and what portion do you want to be due to the machine. As an engineer, I enjoy the competition between technologies. I also know that a computer could pilot the bike better than a rider. But at that exstream, with all the emphasis being on technology, it would be very boring racing. | ||
| Elvis |
Thanks José I agree with nearly every point you make (maybe that has something to do with the fact that I've learned a lot about how all this works from you over the years). While it was painful getting here, the current proposed set of rules is VERY close to what I imagined as a nearly perfect set of races when this whole thing started. I'm very happy that Daytona Superbike and American Superbike are so clearly different and showcase such clearly different bikes. I'm very happy that the American Superbike rules emphasise stock bikes and put the focus more where it belongs - on production bikes and riders rather than money from Japanese factories. I'm very happy that, when you get right down to it, American Superbike isn't all that different from WSBK. Think about it. The displacement and weight limits for American Superbike match those for WSBK (somebody please check me on that if I'm wrong), so if Buell (for example) has a bike and rider that are competitive in American Superbike, the only thing they should need to then make the jump to WSBK is the money to spend on all the research and parts that go into the special modifications for WSBK. If Buell can create a bike and be competitive in American Superbike, they will have a much firmer jumping off point to enter WSBK than KTM currently has, wouldn't you agree? I'm very happy that, now that Edmondson has fixed some of the glaring errors with the current rule structure with this proposed rule structure he is working on the other two most important details - television coverage and sponsorship. We can already see some evidence of his sponsorship work here:  See that nice, big Coca-Cola patch? Not only does that do the obvious - bring new money into the sport that hasn't been there before, but it also helps promote the sport itself. If Coca-Cola is involved, they'll want to get people watching the races. They'll be talking it up to their workers (and they've got a LOT of workers). And those workers will probaly think it's sort of cool that they work for a company that sponsors a motorcycle racing team. They'll start watching, and they'll start talking about it with their friends and watching it with their friends. And then, of course, television coverage is key. If people can turn on their TV and see these races, they'll know what's going on and their interest will grow. When I was a kid, there used to be very limited television coverage of home baseball games. They always wanted people to go to the games rather than watching TV, but an interesting thing happened when they started increasing their coverage. They found that people were MORE interested in going to the games rather than less interested when their was more television coverage because they got to know the teams and got into it. Everybody talks about "Nascar" like its the boogey-man, but there's absolutely nothing in anything we've seen to indicate we will see racing on big ovals anytime soon. On the other hand, Nascar type TV coverage and money supporting a solid motorcycle racing series wouldn't be a bad thing, would it? | ||
| Sd26 |
WSB allows Ducati to run that big bore 1098 thing. You wont' see that in American Superbike. And the 1125R Buell will be in Daytona Superbike, the premier class. | ||
| Sd26 |
See that nice, big Coca-Cola patch? Not only does that do the obvious - bring new money into the sport that hasn't been there before, but it also helps promote the sport itself. If Coca-Cola is involved, they'll want to get people watching the races. They'll be talking it up to their workers (and they've got a LOT of workers). And those workers will probaly think it's sort of cool that they work for a company that sponsors a motorcycle racing team. They'll start watching, and they'll start talking about it with their friends and watching it with their friends. I agree getting that kind of money is helping. But I believe that that has come as a result of the France family asking for commitments from some of the people that they have long relationships with. There isn't enough market there for MotoST to support any big sponsorship dollars. But the France family can ask and get things done that the AMA and others never could do. The AMA previously was very good at screwing up series sponsorships.}} | ||
| Diablo1 |
WSB allows Ducati to run that big bore 1098 thing. You wont' see that in American Superbike. So, what's wrong with allowing 1200cc twins to compete against liter 4-cylinders? Ducati markets fast twins based on racing fast twins - and they pushed for the 1200cc displacement bump to remain competitive against the fours. Buell can develop a 1200cc twin if they want to race WSBK. IMHO, Roger should make 3 classes of racing. Stock 600cc (very few mods allowed), stock 1000cc - 4 cyl vs 1200cc twins (very few mods allowed), and WSBK rules. Less fan confusion, lower racing costs in the two stock classes, and classes to keep all the manufacturers interested.} | ||
| Sd26 |
Well, as a racer and a fan, WSB is a Ducati fest. Sure, there are some times when a Suzuki slips in and all, but Ducati is the only one that has a factory special that is over the production standard. Honestly, why can't they compete at the production size? It is ridiculous. Again, it's back to availability, and that skews the results. A 1098 would have been compettive, and an 1150 or what ever is an advantage. And it's not production. Aprilia even had the Cosworth engined Mille's allowed where production versions were Rotax motors. Those kind of rules below in MotoGP, really, where they aren't available to the general public. If WSB is about marketing, then it's only about marketing a name in that case, because you can't get the race version. | ||
| Sd26 |
lower racing costs in the two stock classes Stock classes have high costs and availability problems. Allow a reasonable amount of laditude and specific, attainable, enforceable rules, and it does become easier. Wanna race in a stock class? Order 100 pistions, if they are actually available. Measure them all and decide which you're gonna use. Honda, specifically, has a special factory where their "race production" bikes come from vs the actual street bikes that people, and other normal teams, buy bikes off a showroom floor. HRC black boxes, etc. Stock is expensive. Specific weight and HP limits are pretty easy along with a reasonable set of rules, the backing to enforce the rules, and the fines that go along with the importance of coloring within the lines, period. | ||
| José_quiñones |
http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID= 12821 The mistake is made? We'll find out who's right soon enough. They are about to waste a bunch of money against someone with a whole LOT more money. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 19, 2008) | ||
| Diablo1 |
Again, it's back to availability, and that skews the results. A 1098 would have been compettive, and an 1150 or what ever is an advantage. And it's not production. Sure it's production. The WSBK rules state how many bikes must be produced. For 2009, Ducati and everyone else must produce 1,000 bikes in order to race. In 2010, it's 3,000 bikes. So expect Ducati to produce 3,000 of their 1098-R, and Aprilia to produce 3,000 of their RSV4 in order to go racing etc. }If Buell wants to go racing, they can produce 3,000 bikes too. | ||
| José_quiñones |
There are NO FULL FACTORY Japanese teams in WSBK, like there are in AMA or BSB. As you well know, a factory supported team is not the same as a FACTORY team. And they are only receiving support now that the factories saw that the series survived without them. They won't go full in again anytime soon because that would mean admitting that they were wrong about the spec tires/engine rules.
Matt, since you probably did not bother to click on the link I provided earlier, let me post the money quote:
(Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 19, 2008) | ||
| Elvis |
If Mladin's comments are based on fact, they're already off to a terrible start. How does Honda and Kawasaki (it generally seems Yamaha isn't onboard ) feel about Mladin being the one to break the news? How do they feel about him breaking it in such a half-assed way with no details of how anything will work? How are they going to fill a grid? Will privateers participate in a series in which they know the cards are stacked against them? If Suzuki and Honda go full bore, but Kawasaki and Yamaha offer little or no support, how will a field of 4 or 5 "Superbikes" look to spectators? The MIC seems to be being held up as a puppet (and even Mladin didn't seem to know what involvement, if any, they would have). How will fans feel about a series that is basically set up by the factories to show off rather than a series that is created by and independant sanctioning body that then invites participants? Maybe Mladin only has some of the details and there's more substance hidden somewhere . . . or maybe the new race-group really is as big a cluster-**** as one would infer by his "announcement", but either way, he should have kept his mouth shut. I think it's going to be a battle to lock up tracks, TV time and sponsors at this point, and I think Edmondson has a huge head-start in those areas. But the new series has Mladin. He seems to think he's all a race series needs. I guess time will tell. | ||
| Bads1 |
Speaking of Coka-cola. I'd see Monster being a very huge contributor. Makes me wonder how long Redbull can be number one.DMG has sooooo many ways to make this sport thrive. | ||
| Trojan |
There are NO FULL FACTORY Japanese teams in WSBK, like there are in AMA or BSB. Actually there are no full factory teams in BSB or AMA either, however, take a look at Francis Batta's WSBK Suzuki operation, Yamaha Italia's Yamaha team or Ten Kate Honda and tell me that they are not factory teams by any other name? Alstare Suzuki receives their parts directly from Suzuki just like Yoshimura Suzuki in AMA. Ten Kate and the others do likewise from their respective manufacturers. Take a look at the Ten Kate pit next time you watch WSBK and you'll see plenty of HRC personnel in the team garage. Sterilgarda Ducati is supposedly a 'privateer' team but they receive two of only around 10 2008 spec 1098 Superbike racers worldwide! These come direct from Ducati along with technicians, parts support etc. and are returned to the factory for rebuilds after every race. The ONLY road race series currenty with full factory teams outside of MotoGP is the World Endurance championship (and possibly Japanese Superbike) although even here all of the big factories are moving away from direct factory squads into supporting smaller professional teams. That does not diminish the input of HRC or other 'factory race shops'. If you think that the factories will support riders in the DMG series to the same level then you are mistaken. Mladin's announcement shows that the factories will do pretty much anything in their power NOT to support the DMG/AMA series even to the extent of running an alternative championship for themselves. When it comes to money the big 4 factories have more than DMG to spend you can be sure. WSBK spent a couple of very dodgy years without factory support from the big 4 when they changed to Pirelli tyres, but managed to pull through partly because the very big 'privateer' teams never stopped receiving factory backing and were able to continue development of their 4 cylinder bikes to challenge Ducati, but more importantly because WSBK already had a very large fan base in Europe that continued to follow the series. The AMA/DMG does not have this luxury and is struggling for fans already (which is how all this started is it not?). Like it or not, manufacturers DO control racing, not organisers or fans. Without their support racing is impoverished and cannot be seen as the top echelon of the sport any longer. Whether the breakaway series works or not is largely irrelavant. What IS important is that the factories (and hence the top teams) do not support the DMG ideas and will not be part of them, and therefore that series is already lost. If DMG cannot get the big factories back on board then it will turn into a glitzy sideshow with no real substance. If you want to take quotes then this one from the same CycleNews article says it all: 'The pending split is reminiscent of the 1996 fracture between CART and the Indy Racing League that killed open wheel racing in the U.S. and raised the profile of NASCAR.' At the end of the day the winners will probably be WSBK because I am sure that they will inherit some of the disgruntled teams and riders from AMA. As a footnote, it appears that there may be a one make tyre rule in MotoGP next year after all. Riders voted unanimously in favour of a one make rule for 2009 (providing of course that the manufacturer chosen was Bridgestone!). This was one of a number of measures put forward on the usual 'safety' grounds (like 800cc engines), although we all know that if the performance of Michelin was on par with Bridgestone now the subject would never have arisen. The ONLY reason that riders have voted for this is that they see themselves being more competitive with the current Bridgestone teams. (Message edited by trojan on August 20, 2008) (Message edited by trojan on August 20, 2008) | ||
| José_quiñones |
If it even gets off the ground, there is NO way the new MIC series will outspend the AMA series in any way (presentation, tv deal, sponsorships, purses, etc), you're fooling yourself. So they'll have Mladin and a few others, the AMA has a whole crop of up and coming riders that are more than happy to take their place. They'll put on a hell of a lot better races than the proposed alternate series, which will be the motorcycle equivalent of the Harlem Globetrotters. You KNOW who's going to win the "show". There are also plenty of privateer teams that rival the current superbike teams in terms of presentation and preparation (Jordan and Corona Extra are the two best examples). The Jordan Ducatis next year will look pretty cool in that Carolina Blue color. AMA Superbike, like World Superbike before it, will survive, and in fact, thrive, after this. (Message edited by josé_quiñones on August 20, 2008) | ||
| Bads1 |
If you think that the factories will support riders in the DMG series to the same level then you are mistaken. Mladin's announcement shows that the factories will do pretty much anything in their power NOT to support the DMG/AMA series even to the extent of running an alternative championship for themselves. When it comes to money the big 4 factories have more than DMG to spend you can be sure. We'll see about that.LOL To many outside company's like Coca-cola,Monster,Pepsi, Budweiser,Miller Brewing, and the list goes on and on and on. DMG is a monster that knows more about marketing then you'll ever understand Matt. | ||
| Trojan |
DMG is a monster that knows more about marketing then you'll ever understand Matt. I understand completely just how big and powerful they are. However, you can be the best marketing guy in the world and a donkey is still a donkey. Mladin won't be the only established star to jump ship will he, and you need more than a few flags & stickers and a bit of razzamataz to make decent racing. Major sponsors may well be cajoled in by the organisers at the beginning, but will they stay when they realise that they are sponsoring a weak and pretty meaningless championship that lacks any depth of talent, especially if there is an alternative series running with all the top stars taking part? Spies has already comitted himself to MotoGP/WSBK for next year, all of the riders contracted to Honda & Kawasaki will be off too. The Bostrums & Jason DiSalvo would be very unlikely to be happy with the new rules even if contracted to Yamaha for next year, so that leaves........'up and coming' riders that nobody has ever heard of. If the rival series turns out to be the premier (and only) Superbike series in the US then even these riders may decide that the route to take may not be DMG's. Top riders want to race the fastest and best bikes, and no amount of marketing hoohah will tempt world class riders to race castrated showroom bikes when there is a more competitive alternative. Colin Edwards, who was widely tipped to finish his career in AMA Superbikes, has already said that he has no interest in racing a 'strangled' 600 in this series and I cannot imagine any world class rider who would. Anyway, I can't be bothered to argue about it any more, so I will wait and see what pans out in 2009 for US motorcycle sport. Whatever I think is unimportant and will make no difference, and I have BSB/WSBK/MotoGP to watch anyhow  | ||
| Paint_shaker |
'The pending split is reminiscent of the 1996 fracture between CART and the Indy Racing League that killed open wheel racing in the U.S. and raised the profile of NASCAR.' I agree that the CART/Indy split killed open wheel racing in America, but I don't feel it played a substantial role in raising NASCAR's profile. At the time of the split, NASCAR was well on it's way to a higher profile. If DMG is able to apply the NASCAR success formula to American motorcycle racing, good things will happen, with or without the big 4... | ||
| Paint_shaker |
So Mladdin, Spies or any number of the other current "names" may not participate in the series... America is all about "up and comers" rising from nothing to make a name for themselves. The Racers in the new series will establish themselves and become known. A fan base will be created and these guys will become the next Mladins and Spies... They can then choose to stay with the DMG/AMA series or jump over to the "rival" series of the big 4..... | ||
| Elvis |
It's interesting that neither Roadracing world nor Superbikeplanet (who are both normally up on these things) are reporting anything on what should be a pretty big story. It seems possible at this point that Suzuki has signed Mladin on for a series that doesn't really exist and may never exist. I have to admit I'd get a chuckle out of it if that turned out to be the case. | ||
| Sd26 |
Well, who is Mladin contracted too? I'm betting that American Suzuki can't afford him, and that he's contracted to Suzuki Japan and is then given to American Suzuki. Mladin might even have a way out of his contract too. Now, back to the top rider issue and where they want to race... Generally, it's accepted at face value that "top riders want to race in the top series". But that's because it's more lucrative. If it isn't, then you race someplace else. And that's why AMA isn't so deep. That's why Robert Jensen makes over $100k a year vs the $60k he's offered as a contract from some good teams. Mladin's contracts with helmet companies, etc. are quite substantial because of his stature as a multitime Superbike champ and because the team he's contracted to has a substantial opportunity over other teams that have no opportunity for getting bikes, parts, etc. at any cost above the real value of those parts and so on. It makes him valuable. For 85% of the current field, the $5k of second place is many times more than what the AMA purse has paid in various classes. It's even more that what it pays for a win in some Superbike races. Given that 10th will pay $5k, this is a great opportunity. $50k for the Daytona Superbike win? Hey, that's a great opportunity. I know that over the course of my racing career, I've been disappointed to read how someone can get $180k for 11th place or something at Indy in addition to substantial amounts for NASCAR finishes. MIC is going to have a series. How much money will those particular manufacturers put into TV time? They haven't put much in to TV with the previous AMA. They haven't substantially put up a lot of contingency money to attract riders below their teams. So, how can they attract teams to their MIC program? Ultimately, they will probably control them with how they allocate bikes to the teams they have supported in the past. Team Hammer, John Ulrich's gig, has a long history with Suzuki. I can't say that I know if his relationship is with American Suzuki or if he also has a relationship with Suzuki Japan. If it's only with Mel Harris, then I think there are some struggles ahead. What that means for Martin, Cory, and Blake...well, I don't think they really know where they are racing. They are contracted to Team Hammer. Sometimes those contracts are bought by the manufacturer/distributor. I know that Blake has a great relationship with Mel Harris. So, how that money flows through that relationship? I don't know. What happens to Safety First Racing and KWS who get a lot of support from American Suzuki? I think there will be a lot of leverage against them to follow where American Suzuki requires them to go...unless they can get sponsorship dollars from outside the industry that they haven't been able to get before for either series that hasn't been able to give them those opportunities. As for the spec tire thing with the AMA...a tire provider is really going to need to know the scope of the supply NOW in order to prepare for the thousands of tires that will be necessary to supply the paddock. At this point, it's very late in the game to make that happen. What's a "B" level rider to do? Generally, you're building your relationship with your tire guys during the year, and then you develop your plan for the next year. Well, if you're just going to do contingency club racing, that probably works out ok. But if you're going to "do some AMA", now you'll be riding on a spec tire that you may not be representing the rest of the year. If your sponsor is going to be the new spec tire for the AMA program, they may not have the budget to supply you with tires for your racing outside the AMA. Even with the MIC/AMA-DMG thing, can one necessarily bank on the Japanese manufacturers offering the contingency that they have had this year and in previous years in the light of what they seem to be prepared to do for 2009? If they took away the money that a guy like Robbie Jensen makes at club events and put it in the MIC series, well, he'd have to make some deisions. Lots to think about, really. | ||
| Elvis |
Well, who is Mladin contracted too? I'm betting that American Suzuki can't afford him, and that he's contracted to Suzuki Japan and is then given to American Suzuki. That's a good question. Another good question is: "What's the status of contracts for riders like Zemke, Hayes, Hayden, Bostrom etc.?" I assume any existing contracts are for AMA racing and if the holders of those contracts don't intend to race in the AMA, they will have to try to re-sign riders to new contracts for the rumored "Factory Series". (one intriguing possibility is that there are riders with AMA contracts in place who could insist their employers honor the contract and pay them to race in the AMA as originally agreed). And since new contracts will have to be written under any circumstances (unless teams choose to continue to race AMA), there should be a lot of big names potentially up for grabs. I would expect that Michael Jordan and other teams who intend to race AMA next year are actively talking to some of those riders. Hopefully Harley/Buell (possibly through intermediaries such as Fast by Ferracci, Richie Morris, Ruthless Racing, Hal's etc.) are talking to some top riders right now to get them on Buells and MV Augustas. (Message edited by elvis on August 20, 2008) |
