| Author | Message | ||
     Gjwinaus |
I want to change over to the beryllium copper oil pump drive gear in my XB9R and thanks to Reepicheep’s suggestion to unload the cams on one cylinder, I only need to ease the valves in the other cylinder to take the cam box cover off without damaging the gears, I’ve searched the Knowledge Vault and haven’t found anything on the actual procedure. What I have in mind is to rotate the engine in the frame, take off the top rocker box cover from the front cylinder, rotate the crank till the front cylinder valves are unloaded, slide out the rocker shafts, then rotate the crank till the valves in the rear cylinder are unloaded , then remove the cam cover ( gear cover) and do the change-over. I think there is not enough room to slide the rocker shafts out with the engine still in the frame, Reassembly will be in the reverse order My question , is this the simplest way to do it or is there an easier way. If I rotate the engine, should I remove the muffler first. I know this question should be in the KV but responses in the KV tend to be a bit slow Thanks in advance | ||
| Rhun |
I'd get a service manual. If you don't get your rockers or cams back right you could really damage stuff.That being said about the manual, some of the 'practices' in the manual are over kill. It suggested rotating the engine, which is a very consuming task, to replace the intake manifold gaskets. I did it without doing this. I had to shorten an allen wrench but saved four hours of engine rotating. | ||
| Reepicheep |
That was Al Lighton's suggestion... I'll be trying it this winter. You want to take off the front rocker box (unloading those cams) and then turn the crank to where the cams for the rear are completely unloaded. If anyone (unlike me) actually knows what they are talking about, I would love to know why the positioning is so fussy. If I look at a cam, it seems to me that for 80% of its rotation, it would have no (or very little) loading. It would only load up when the cam lobe is pushing the pushrod. That would mean that likd 270 degrees of rotation would have both cams unloaded. But that must not be the case, because this procedure requires positioning that can only be done on one cam at a time. Likewise, my KLR-250 (dual overhead cam) has one exact spot you are supposed to put the crank for checking valve clearance. So the cam must actually carry a slight load for most of its rotation (in spite of appearances to the contrary. | ||
| Gjwinaus |
Got the service manual and the parts manual, the service manual deals with accessing the oil pump drive gear with the engine on the bench and the heads and barrels off. I don’t want to do that. Reepicheep, from playing with my old XLCR, I think there in no position in the rotation of the crank that all the cams are unloaded, Can anyone confirm this. There must be someone here on Badweb who can tell me the best way to get the gear out without removing the engine. Thanks | ||
| Gjwinaus |
Correction "without COMPLETELY removing the engine" | ||
| Point_doc |
I replaced mine on a 2004 XB12S. Engine rotation is twenty minutes of work on a bad day. Yes, remove your muffler, belt guard, left foot peg base, three dog-bones that attach the motor to the frame, left snorkel, air box and base, seat, use scissor jack to lower, there are three structural tube's that attach to the frame that need to have the THREE attaching bolts removed, and don't forget about diconnecting your battery. You will need to drill out the two rivets on your timing cover in order to separate the cover from the cams (there is a single screw that you will have to remove that is attached to "a" cam) and make sure to mark your timing plate!! If you don't remove the screw from the cam, you will either not remove the cover or if you have removed the load on the cams you will pull all four of your cams out when you remove the cover. The cams are marked for location and timing when you need to time the motor. Also you will have to remove the plug that is located between the cylinders to observe the crank timing mark. In order to release the load on the cams you will have to loosen the rocker assembly.  (Message edited by Point_Doc on August 17, 2008) | ||
| Gjwinaus |
Doc, thanks for the heads up on the procedure inside the timing space and the or “you will pull all four of your cams out when you remove the cover” that is what I’m trying to avoid happening. I trying to avoid retiming the cams. In regard your comment “In order to release the load on the cams you will have to loosen the rocker assembly.” with the valves unloaded I’m hopeful that by taking off only the top cover, I can undo the the retainer screws and slid out the rocker arm shafts out, that will save me having to disturb the gasket between the rocker box and the head. Anyone got any advice on this plan. | ||
| Point_doc |
How many miles are on your bike? The reason I ask is why your in there maybe freshin' up your gaskets. Just a thought...stock gaskets weep early. Concerning the removal of the shaft; I am not sure you can remove any item like the shaft with a load on it. The fitting is a slip fitting (if my memory serves me right) with maybe a .001 or two of difference for the slip. Give it a try, the worst is you will have to remove the rocker arms and install fresh gaskets. I have always used Pitbull stands front/rear and scissor jack for rotating my motor, I have not done the rotation without them so I do not know if you will get the clearance for the amount of rotation needed without them. And for retiming the cams...CHICKEN  (Message edited by Point_Doc on August 17, 2008) | ||
| Gjwinaus |
Thanks Doc My 9 only has 11,000 miles on it (17,000 Km) I’m a fair weather sailor and yes I have all the pit bull type stuff . And for the record when this finally end up in the KV, I think that with the engine rotated and the valves unloaded in the front cylinder I am hopeful of that the shafts will slid all the way out sideways, this will allow the push rods to rise without any pressure on the front cam lodes when I rotate the crank to unload the rear cylinder valves “And for retiming the cams...CHICKEN” Your right, but I have rebuilt a couple of auto transmissions and I do my own diagnostics on my fuel injection systems but all I want to do is replace the gear so I agree “CHICKEN” If I don’t get any better suggestions before the week-end, I will attack the gear replacement as outlined and I will report after I have done it on how it worked out. Thanks for the inputs. | ||
| Point_doc |
Gjwinaus, Good luck...concerning the cams, I found out that they come out with the cover by accident! I stood there holding my cam cover with four cams attached. I did use the shop manual for installation and timing. (Message edited by Point_Doc on August 18, 2008) | ||
| Gjwinaus |
I'm a butter side down guy too, I think I will be retiming the cams as well | ||
| Dlwilson |
I did the same thing as point_doc, and ended up holding the cover with two cams in it. Then I found this link http://home.sandiego.edu/~ekim/harley/tstorm/thud. html that has some good photos of exactly how to install the cams. | ||
| Gjwinaus |
Hooray, found a lot of information about this very problem, and I goes back to 2001,The thread headings can be a little obscure but it is there, it just take a little looking, sorry for going over old ground. below are some of the links http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/16313.html?1032211437 http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/14795.html http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/129393.html http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/384 2/14795.html http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/214053.html http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/346070.html?1206980061 Thanks everyone who responded | ||
| Point_doc |
Gjwinaus, I just remembered this morning that when was inside the cam gear box, I might have been able to remove the oil drive gear without removing a cam. Before you remove anything and even before you rotate the motor, remove the gear cover and inspect!! I remember thinking and still thinking that you could quite possibly remove and replace the oil pump drive gear by simply removing the gear cover, then remove the pinion nut and gear that is in front of the oil pump gear and then slide it out and replace, DONE (manual page 3-85/86). It was unfortunate for me that I knew nothing about that ONE bolt behind the timing plate (cam position sensor) and rotor; also make sure you mark the location of your timing plate (cam position sensor) with a pencil!! If you need to rotate the motor to remove a load, put the bike in FIFTH GEAR and "slowly" spin the tire. If still having trouble with rotation, remove the spark plugs. If you need to remove the cams it should only be one cam, the Front Intake Cam. After you drill out the rivets, you will need to install button head socket cap screw McMaster-Carr number (91255A242) double check the length. For this you will need a 10-24 tap and use the existing holes to tap that you locate on the cam sensor position plate. Good Luck.... (Message edited by Point_Doc on August 18, 2008) | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
I read my service manual last night as to what was all involved in splitting the cases. WOW. This is way past me. | ||
| Point_doc |
Gjwinaus, I was looking at my 12 and realized that the header may have to be removed in order to get the cam cover off. Now on your 9 I do not know. If this is the case; then you will need to purchase two exhaust gaskets. While the header is out, you might think about installing a Bosch 4-wire O2 sensor. Inspect, take note of the task ahead and think of other jobs that you can perform during this operation. This will save you time and effort down the road. (Message edited by Point_Doc on August 18, 2008) | ||
| Sloppy |
Thoroughly inspect the cam -- odds are you don't need a replacement. It is far cheaper and easier to check it every year and see if the wear is getting worse. I did mine cause I got "nervous" but it wasn't showing any increased wear -- so I wished I would have just left it in. There was barely any wear on it at all. My local Sporster / Buell mechanic mentioned to me that the only bikes he sees that has problems are those that are used for drag racing. | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think it has to do with tolerances on the case / oil pump mating surface. WhiteBuell had a pretty convincing theory and backed it up with a fix. If you don't have a "gear eater", you won't eat pumps. If you have a "gear eater", riding easy probably won't help you. | ||
| Gjwinaus |
Ya know Sloppy, your statement makes a lot of sense. “Thoroughly inspect the cam -- odds are you don't need a replacement. It is far cheaper and easier to check it every year and see if the wear is getting worse.” I think I will pop the oil pump out and check, it doesn’t make sense to go to all that trouble if there is no need to. There are shiploads of pictures in the KV of what the “gear going bad” looks like. I will replace it if it looks worn, | ||
| Jcbikes |
Was just wondering - Is their anyway to just inspect the gear with out tearing it all apart first? | ||
| Point_doc |
Maybe if you remove the oil pump. I don't know if there would be enough space after the removal to inspect. Try and let us know. If not, the gear is tucked behind the pinion gear and nut and the only way to access it is after removing the cover. | ||
| Gjwinaus |
I think I’m right with this, go up to Reepicheep’s profile and look at his avatar ( picture) , I believe that is the gear in question thru the oil pump shaft hole after the oil pump has been removed. | ||
| Bombardier |
The BUELL SEGWAY?  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Exactly. Just drop the oil pump and look up in there. It's almost easier with a good digital camera with macro mode. That shot was from an M2, but I did it on my 9sx also. I think you have to drop the exhaust can to get the pump out. So if you want to follow the manual and not reuse that front exhaust strap, you should price that in along with a new oil pump gasket for the inspection. Its an easy thing to check if you are doing an oil change anyway, and it will let you do a "full" oil change. Bump the crank a few times when you are checking. When the gears wear, the typically do so assymetrically. One side can look pretty good, the other side can look really bad. Somewhere I think I posted the picture from my 9sx gear as well. Worn but intact, I'll be replacing it this winter. Buellistic also sent me a nice write up on doing this on a tuber... but problems with an unreliable Japanese water cooled motorcycle have been consuming my free time. So that guide will probably appear this winter as well... or at least after I get the KLR-250 alive again. | ||
| Starter |
I helped a mate with a tube frame 6 months ago with this one. If you can do this without taking the the load from at least the front push rods and cams you are better than I am. Engine at TDC rear cylinder and the rocker box off the front cylinder was all it took me. I was a cheap skate and held the crank using the a wedge on the primary drive. His gear was a little worn but nothing near destructing. All up took about 4 hours from start to finish. | ||
| Gjwinaus |
At the moment I wish the buell was a tuber, I could access the rocker boxes so much easier | ||
| Reepicheep |
Rotating the engine looks harder then it really is. And for that matter, removing rocker boxes from a tuber looked easier then it really is. Every time I had to pull the rockers on the M2, I remember thinking "this will be easy". By the time I had them off, I remember thinking "geesh, thats a lot of bits and pieces and tedious little steps. When I had to rotate the motor on the XB9SX for a broken stud, I remember thinking "rotating the engine is going to be a PITA". When I had it rotated and sitting there, I remember thinking "that was a lot of little steps, but its only been 45 minutes to get that whole engine exposed, and this was the first time I tried it". FWIW, IMHO, YMMV. | ||
| Gjwinaus |
Well, I dropped the oil pump over the week-end to look at the oil pump drive gear, The good news is the gear shows no sign of wear. I checked 4 times at each 90 degrees of crank rotation. I took photos but no macro so the piccies were no good for Badweb I didn’t drain the oil, just made 3 x 1” rubber tubes from 3/8 “ ID heater hose and blocked the open ends, and put them over the oil pump pipes .(Oil changed 300 miles ago.) I won’t be changing the gear this time. | ||
| Gjwinaus |
A thought I had while checking the oil pump drive gear . Can I take off the cam cover without removing either of the rocker boxes or rotating the engine. The procedure would be, Take off the ignition cover and remove the sensor assembly and trigger rotor. Rotate crank to rock cams between inlet and exhaust on REAR cylinder, front cylinder cams are OFF lift. remove sensor assembly and trigger rotor screws out of the cam cover as cam cover is remover (1/16” at a time) knock on the front cylinder inlet cam where the trigger rotor mounts ( thru the cam cover ) to keep the cam in the engine case, this will keep the 2 front cams is place alternating to lever over the 2 slightly loaded rear cams towards the engine case thru the oil pump hole to keep them in the engine case as well, I can see this will work but my question is will the cams ( with some load from the lifters) damage the cam bushes in the engine case after the cover is removed. your thoughts would be appreciated | ||
| Hughlysses |
Graeme- Glad to hear your gear is OK. How many miles are on your bike now? Now that you know how easy it is to check the gear, you can just drop the pump every ~10,000 miles or so. If it's not showing wear, I wouldn't worry about changing it. | ||
| Starter |
Good to hear you have no signs of wear. I suppose a burden from your mind and something you can look forward to in the very distant future. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Great news! I think XB's are a lot easier on that gear then the tubers were. Mine is slowly eating that gear, but most don't. We discussed the "remove cover without removing the rocker box" topic before. Here were the two take homes I remember... 1) A good Buell tech at a good dealer told me that you physically can do it, and it involved a paint scraper or something similar. The way he said it told me that you can do it that way, and that he probably had done it that way, but that you probably shouldn't do it that way. If you know what I mean. So keep that in your back pocket if you are ever under "combat conditions" and in a pinch. 2) Al Lighton mentioned grave concerns for the cam bushings if you were supporting those cams by only one side. Al Lighton knows an awful lot about these motors and is an awfully smart guy. And now its probably confession time... when I was doing this job on my M2, I *think* I pulled the cam cover with both rocker boxes still bolted down. It actually came out pretty easily as I recall, so I tried putting it back on... and it did not feel like it was going to make it without a lot of drama... and more force then I was willing to apply. So I think my experiences back up the community wisdom. You probably could do it, but you probably shouldn't. |
