| Author | Message | ||
     Coops53233 |
It IS an issue that, had America not gotten involved in it past patriating the diaspora, we'd still have our World Trade Center. Interesting point of view, Tramp. There is a plethora of evidence outlining genuine radical Islamist opposition to the US for reasons other than our support for Israel (see UBL's original fatwa authorizing jihad against the US - translated from a non-DoD source, if you like  ). Published al-Qaeda statements and videos cite repeatedly as reasons for attacking the US our support of secular muslim regimes and western troop presence in the Middle East - specifically our relationship and alliances with Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc... and our involvement in Iraq via Gulf War I. (You can argue that Gulf War I was partially based on our alliance with Israel, and it probably was, in part, but it cannot be overlooked that Saudi Arabia requested US assistance and permitted US troops to establish a presence.) Based on available evidence, the Israeli-Arab issue figures less prominently into al-Qaeda's ideology and cause for attacking the US, and more as a recruiting tool to draw in the cream of the local Islamist groups and financial and material support from more moderate and otherwise peaceful religious organizations. Islamist extremists themselves have a far more extensive history of being in conflict with local secular arab ruling regimes, a far longer history than the arab-israeli issue. So, my studies seem to indicate that support for Israel is indeed a big part of why the US isn't popular with many arabs in the Middle East. But, for al-Qaeda, the specific group that attacked us, the reasons are much more focused on our support for moderate, secular arab regimes and our "defiling" of Islam's holy land. As long as the US supports more moderate secular arab regimes, there was and always will be a pretty good chance we could attacked by a radical Islamist terrorist group. Al-Qaeda via 9/11 was just the first of these that had the resources and will to attack the "far enemy" at home rather than blowing up our troops somewhere in the sandbox. But lets get back on topic. Looks like Russia is already violating the truce and started looting Gori... http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080813/D92HD9L02 .html | ||
| Tramp |
Ft_bstrd- Obviously my question was addressed to you...twice. Any chance of an answer, now, or will the cat & mouse game continue? | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Tramp, Sudetenland zwei? The similarities are frightening to say the least -- I'd be most interested in how you view it. Especially since you've got connections with the people, or the their descendants, who lived it. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Sorry. Didn't see the original question. No cat and mouse intended. Trips to Russia and the Middle East? None. Doesn't mean that I am unable to get a pretty good picture of what is going on through reading books, articles, etc. 99.8% of the US population hasn't been to Russia or the Middle East. 99.99% of Russians and Middle Easterners haven't been to the US. Regardless, the "you've never been there so you don't know anything" argument is a red herring. You and I simply have different interpretations of what we see, read, and have experienced. I have no doubt that you have experienced first hand very nice and wonderful folks. I envy your travels. The problem is that these wonderful folks are not the ones creating the problems. I suspect that you spent exactly zero time in Al Qaeda training camps. I suspect that you spent exactly zero time with hardcore communist ultra nationalists. I also suspect you spend very little time with KKK members or Michigan militia groups here. I don't either. I can only go by the statements made by Islamic extremists as to what they want, what they don't want, and what they are prepared to do. They don't like us much, and it ain't just because of Israel. Israel is no saint. They are VERY heavy handed at times, but given their not so distant history, I don't see that I blame them much. I also reject the argument that there were Jews waiting in UN boats for the UN to come in with bulldozers and guns and forcibly remove the indigenous population while these "damn dirty jews" took over. History simply doesn't support that assessment, but that is the viewpoint of many. I don't get from you that this is your position either. I would be very surprised if it was. The Islamic/Israeli position isn't as one dimensional either. | ||
| Tramp |
ummm. Ft-Bstrd- I did NOT , ever, state "you've never been there so you don't know anything".... Not sure where you quoted that from, but I resent the implication that you're quoting me- i posted/said no such thing. you're aslo horribly mistaken in your later assertions, esp. re: hardcore communist ultra nationalists, etc. Your statement that "99.99% of Russians and middle easterners haven't been to the US" is inaccurate, at best. Please supply the source for this statement. It seems , either way, that you have spent ZERO time in Russia, ZERO time in Muslim countries (you said "Middle east", which was NOT part of my question, I cited "Muslim countries"- which are often inanalogous of one another), yet you have incredibly strong, authoriative views on these regions, and you argue with someone who has , not just visited, But spent considerable time in such areas. All I have to respond with is: "huh" | ||
| 86129squids |
FWIW, National Public Radio is having a discussion on this right now. Quite interesting, all. Thanks for such a brisk thread, y'all | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
My father traveled to the Middle East many times and it was a dung heap then and probably still one, now. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There are no authoritative statements made by me whatsoever. I am simply making statements based upon what I have read and observed. You are doing the same with the added advantage of on the spot experience. I'm not arguing with you. I'm simply stating what my viewpoint is concerning what I have read and observed and seeking further clarifications in the discussion. My intent with any of these discussions is to challenge the ideas not the person. I hope you don't feel I am attacking you personally. My intent is to have a point/counterpoint discussion. You make a statement. I provide a counterpoint. You provide a counterpoint to my counterpoint. Etc. This is how I learn. I start with a premise I hold and test that premise in open discussion. If I can't find a way to defend my premise in light of contravening statements, I am forced to re-evaluate my premise. I'm assuming you do the same as well. I wasn't quoting you, but it appeared that the "haven't been there" argument was where you were going. Obviously, someone who has been "there" has a broader experience base than someone who hasn't. My point was that having not been there doesn't qualify someone as completely out of the know. Again, I am not attacking you. I am simply testing my own premises against the experience and knowledge of others. Please don't view anything I post assuming any "ulterior motives or hidden agendas". There are none intended. (Message edited by FT_BSTRD on August 13, 2008) | ||
| Slaughter |
Hey folks - remember MOST Muslim countries are actually ASIAN - Indonesia is the MOST POPULOUS Muslim country on the planet. Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Asian countries will GUT YOU for calling them Arab. Help re-distribute the hate. There are MORE people deserving of your hatred than just those Arabs. | ||
| Slaughter |
...and no, I refuse to put a winking smiley on the post above. | ||
| Slaughter |
Read again T. E. Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom." Some things never change - except the imaginary lines we attempt to "draw" around regional problems. Carry on. Our grand-children's grandchildren will be making the same arguments. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"There are MORE people deserving of your hatred than just those Arabs."  | ||
| Slaughter |
hey yeah... and how about Clay (my butt is really) Aiken? Share the hatin! <edit> forgot my smiley:  (Message edited by slaughter on August 13, 2008) | ||
| Greenlantern |
That is even more disturbing than the "Spidey light switch" Picture! I hate those guys and do not even know who the hell they are!  | ||
| Tramp |
"My father traveled to the Middle East many times and it was a dung heap then and probably still one, now." Great. my father was a Mason...does that make me one? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I still hate Menudo.  | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Great. my father was a Mason...does that make me one? Depends. Did he show you the secret handshake? | ||
| Tramp |
GEEEZ those are some carnies-in-training.... shuddderrrrr.r.r.r..r | ||
| Tramp |
No, but the father at my church did... only involved one hand, though.....plenty of shaking | ||
| Cityxslicker |
Never been there so you don’t know what you are talking about... Interesting. Through out the Reagan period, analysts, linguists and code breakers were specifically prohibited from international travel (unless under orders). It was open public knowledge, you even visit Russian soil (i.e. their consulate here in Seattle) and you were up for review. The policy has not changed. This year will be my first trip to Russia. After studying it for four years (BA UofW91) Looking and listening in on it for 15 years, its time I visit the country and see it first hand. I think I know a thing or two about Russia/Soviet Union, and have had to stand in front of people that make decisions and prove that I knew what I was talking about. If you have stared down the barrel of briefing with a two star then you know what I am talking about. PS. A Russian cease fire has always been to limit their own casualties from "friendly" fire, it has never meant the end of hostilities; it will be back on before the end of the month. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
No, but the father at my church did... only involved one hand, though.....plenty of shaking Damn, dude! I really didn't need that mental image.  | ||
| Bigdaddy |
There's a boat load of excellent, and insightful, commentary in this thread. What's the chances of keeping it on track? "My father traveled to the Middle East many times and it was a dung heap then and probably still one, now." I can only speak about the 80's, 90's, and this decade about the Middle East and I fully agree with your father's assessment. I speak as a frequent visitor to multiple dung heaps in the ME. Slaughter, I can't hate on the Asian variety as we've had no interactions. However, I'm fully prepared to begin hating on them and based on their extended family tree they'll eventually deserve my hate. I'm hopeful that our grand-children's grandchildren are asking "what were Islamo Fascists grandpa?" I can't add a smiley winky thing either. | ||
| Tramp |
I hope my own Grandkids' grankids never stop asking what Christian fascists were, either... .. being as Christian fascists preceded islamo fascists, back when Arabs were still goddam pagans. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I guess it's all in your perspective. There are some legitimate shit holes in the south that other than being green are probably on par with some of the worst the ME has to offer. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
I knew that was coming -- noted. I do want to hear your thoughts on the current hostilities as compared to the Sudetenland (I think you missed the question.) | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
What about the Pagan Facist that predated the Judeo Facist, Christian Facist, and Islamo Facist? | ||
| Thumper74 |
The previous part of that article... http://europebusines.blogspot.com/2008/08/massive- us-naval-armada-heads-for-iran.html My concern is that based on the location of our forces now in Afghanistan and Iraq, along with our forces in the Persian Gulf, it looks like this has been planned for a little bit. We have 2/3 of Iran's borders surrounded. I think this could get ugly. "Come on out, we have you surrounded@" | ||
| Tm74 |
It keeps getting more interesting. Russia challenges George Bush as it advances through Georgia | ||
| Thumper74 |
Why are we backing the agressor here? There's something that we're missing in that we are backing the agressor and our ally's enemy... | ||
| Tm74 |
Who are you referring to as the aggressor? Russia? |
