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Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 05:28 am: | 
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From the Buell web site...
Quote:Today, Buell Motorcycle Company is intensely involved in racing. Since 1996, Buell has sponsored the Formula USA Buell Lightning Series. Buell has participated in the AMA Buell Pro Thunder Series since its establishment in 1998 and began sponsoring the competition in 2000. Three racers are currently supported by Buell sponsored teams: Dave Estok, Tripp Nobles, and Mike Ciccotto. This company has only just begun to leave its mark on the sport of racing.
Sounds like a bit of a hint of things to come, doesn't it?  |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 07:15 am: |
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Depends on what the AMA does, just like it did when they took Buell's market away for the RW750 when they got rid of the F1 class.
No Pro Thunder next year, good luck racing the GSXR 750's! |
Elvis
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 08:53 am: |
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Could AMA changes be the catalyst for a new engine? Just wondering aloud. |
Bykergeek
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 09:00 am: |
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I thought AMA 'transferred' the Pro Phunder and GP250 classes to WERA. |
Spudman
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:04 am: |
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AMA is not going to pull SuperBike! Buell needs to race with the big boys instead of their own special class. Isn't Harley's prior experience in this class the birth place of the infamous V-Rod power plant? The ducs are doing it, Buell should too! |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:24 am: |
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Just a heads up people from Buell called all the dealers and were asking. "What could Buell do to get people more involved in racing there bikes?"
So you might see more stuff available to the public pretty soon.
Keeping Anon just in case. |
Josh
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:28 am: |
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Uh, Anon? You got something sticking out there. |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:43 am: |
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Uh, somebody get the man a new zipper and a band aid...
-Saro |
Spiderman
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:00 pm: |
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Doh nevermind now, LOL Well the Marketing guy from Buell called our and a few other dealers to find out what would intrest or would get more people into racing Buells. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:03 pm: |
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I don't think Buell should race with the big boys at all. The fact that Buells have their own class means there is a level playing field and that races are won by the riders and not the bikes. That's what a sport is all about. |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:19 pm: |
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Not sure what would be accomplished by pushing the old Sportster engine in the ring with a bunch of new kids with foreign names.
If this engine ever had a day in the sun, it's long gone now.
Now if the Company could come out with a compact, watercooled engine, that would be different story. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:50 pm: |
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Buell specific races are won most of the time by attrition. Look at how many successful seasons Shawn Higbee had in Pro-Thunder, and I don't think anyone would be willing to question his riding ability. How many races did Tilley's team even finish this year? I for one would like to see the Firebolt and the 748 Duck in 600 supersport next year but we all know thats not going to happen. Besides winning at Loudon we haven't heard much about the Buell effort in Formula USA either. Square 4 750 watercooled is what we need, but then again who cares Buell is all about the backroad riding experience isn't it? |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:56 pm: |
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Pro THunder Going to WERA:
Practically, this means that the class is dead. From the people I spoke with at VIR this year, not many of the "Factory Supported/Dealer Operated" teams will follow the class to WERA. It hope it will become a true "privateer" class again, and have enough participation to keep it going.
Quote:"What could Buell do to get people more involved in racing there bikes?"
Do it through the FUSA Buell Lightning Class or through this new WERA Pro Thunder Class (but not allowing greater than stock displacement like before):
How? Get more Buell dealers to sponsor race teams and involve the Dealer's BRAG Club by seeking pit crew volunteers and/or riders from within the BRAG Club.
Get the dealers in each area to race against each other at a particular local track (via CCS or WERA), and also attend as many National FUSA Lightning Races as the budget will allow. Get the dealers to seek out local co sponsors for the teams.
How to get the dealers to go racing? Give every dealer that wants to race a FREE leftover X1 or a new XB9R race kitted bike to go race with! Then add a "Buell Racing Dealer Support Package" with a tent, a set of tools and crash replacement parts, a binder book full of mechanical and suspension set up tips, 1-800 number racing tech support phone access, promotional materials to hand out at the dealers and at the track and finally give the dealer's rider and team a free track day with their new bike to "work the bugs out", get the rider a racing license if he does not already have one and get the pit crew some practice.
Get the Dealer mechanics involved in the racing effort by making them the head mechanics of the race team with support from the volunteer BRAG members.
Give the BRAG volunteers free tickets/pit passes to the events for themselves and give them more tickets to the event to sell to their friends, and offer them discounts if they can sell 15 or more tickets.
Set up a Battletrax and/or the Buell Demo Truck at every FUSA event.
Hopefully, FUSA will get TV coverage in the future, which will help FUSA/Buell get more exposure and fill up the grandstands.
Is that a Start?
AMA? (NEGATIVE POST WARNING!!!)
Buell, don't bother racing there unless you show up with a SUPERBIKE.
Pro Thunder was a joke with all the rule changes to keep the bikes competitive. The XB is not currently competitive in the Superstock (750 Class) or the Supersport (600 Class), even displacing 1348cc.
When you see a Buell every Sunday on Speedvision racing in the AMA SUPERBIKE class, sales will take care of themselves. Hopefully fighting for the lead and not blowing oil all over the track. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 01:07 pm: |
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You guys give Jose a hard time, I for one would like to see him as Buell CEO. |
X1glider
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 01:45 pm: |
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JQ, those suggestions would be wonderful.
Unfortunately, we all know that the dealers would just ask, "what's in it for us?" They already sponsor HOG and BRAG chapters voluntarily and even give money to the cause. Mancuso HD pays for the chapter newsletter printing for the 700+ members. That's a huge chunk. What do they get out of it? Directly, nothing. Indirectly, their presence in the club gets the members buying chrome and service at their store.
But racing a Buell? There's not enough Buellers near Mancuso to even entertain the thought and none of us buy chrome heel guards for our Buells. Ain't that right DaveS? hehe
The Buell experience seems to be much greater above the Texas border at least, so maybe those who live from Wisconson to New Jersy would do much better dreaming about it than I would. Other than that I'd be happy to let them buy back my bike (since Mancuso has no X1s left) and sponsor me! |
Daves
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 02:39 pm: |
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You don't have the chrome heel gaurds yet?
Ride to the edge!
Dave
HD/Buell Cycle Center
4022 Sergeant Rd
Waterloo Ia 50701
1-800-342-7539 ext 14 |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:28 pm: |
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How could Buell help raise interest in racing a Buell?
1. Bring a fleet of XB9R's complete with race kit and D208GP's to local tracks and offer demo rides a la Aprilia. Coordinate the effort with local racing clubs. Sponsor local track days all around the country.
2. Offer rent-a-racebike XB9R's at the club racing level
3. Offer for sale weight reduced race-ready XB9R's complete with chain, safety wiring, belly pan and/or fairing, a true race kit, required catch cans, axxion valved forks, a race prepped (for rider's weight/preference) rear shock, and D208GP's already mounted and ready to go.
4. Turn current SV riding, championship contending club racers to XB9R racers through sponsorship. Most would probably go for it if Buell simply guaranteed parts and service support for their bike.
5. Sponsor a "Thunderbike" class in all the significant club racing venues complete with prize money.
I know there are racers in the CMRA who would love to get on a Buell if they felt it would hold up through the season. Buell needs to get out there and prove to everyone that an XB9R is built to last and can win races in the classes for which it qualifies...
Lightweight Superbike
Lightweight GP
Middleweight Sportsman
GTL
and yes, even Middleweight Supersport.
6. Dissect the FUSA, and WERA rules and compile a list of applicable racing classes with a performance modifications matrix showing what modifications would be permitted for an XB9R in each class.
Aftermarket shock
Shock modifications
Fork modifications
Big bore engine
Aftermarket cylinders
Aftermarket engine internals
Compression ratio
RWHP limit
Headwork
Aftermarket brakes
Weight limit
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.
7. Start a Buell racing school with instruction by Erik Buell and the Pro Thunder Racers.
8. Let Erik participate in a track day fercryinoutloud!!!
9. Put on a national BRAG "Texas Shootout - Buell Week at the Track" at Oak Hill Raceway, THE perfect track for an XB9R. This would include a racing school with instruction by Erik and the Pro-Thunder racers, the contending Lightning series racers, and local club racing champions.
Put on time trial competitions (best lap, best three laps) for each class of Buell including the Blast and the tube framers. Put on a competition between all the instructors/pros riding basic race prepped XB9R's setup to their liking. Bring the Pro-Thunder bikes, let the top performing TT winners take 5 laps on them. But mainly, let everyone ride their bikes to their heart's content while keeping records of lap times (fit transponders to each bike).
Invite the moto press for one day of racing.
It would make for a very interesting week.
10. Offer some protection for the frame in the form of reinforced sliders. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:36 pm: |
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Still, the feeling I get from the statement on Buell's web site that "This company has only just begun to leave its mark on the sport of racing." is that something REALLY cool is in the works for Buell Racing. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:53 pm: |
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I agree. That statement is a bit too bold to simply imply they will support privateers a bit more. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 07:33 pm: |
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Quote:Do it_through this new WERA Pro Thunder Class (but not allowing greater than stock displacement like before)
Sure, only if the 4-valve Ducs are prohibited from the class...that'd level the playing field some. The rules are there to keep the racing somewhat even and competitive...if that requires a mountain motor from some bikes SO BE IT.
I personally like the Lightning Series rules. Unlimited engine mods within a horsepower limit..."supersport" chassis within a weight limit. Now there should be such a class that allows a wide range of bikes fitting similar parameters.
Quote:How to get the dealers to go racing? Give every dealer that wants to race a FREE leftover X1 or a new XB9R race kitted bike to go race with! Then add a "Buell Racing Dealer Support Package" with a tent, a set of tools and crash replacement parts, a binder book full of mechanical and suspension set up tips, 1-800 number racing tech support phone access, promotional materials to hand out at the dealers and at the track and finally give the dealer's rider and team a free track day with their new bike to "work the bugs out", get the rider a racing license if he does not already have one and get the pit crew some practice.
Yeah right. That's completely unrealistic IMO. How about the dealers/privateers with the drive to go racing do it on their own? What an idea! If you're heart isn't in it I don't think all the incentives that could be thrown in would mean s**t. Gifts are more likely to be abused. To work for it gives it meaning.
I think Blake's suggestions are pretty on target and realistic. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:35 pm: |
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Rick,
The guys that are doing it on their own are doing it on SV650's.
The question was geared to how to get these people on to Buells instead. Blakes suggestions are excellent, except for 3 (they would need to sell a street version), 7 (Pro Thunder Racers yes, Erik NO WAY (LIABILITY)) and 9 (same thing), those are just as unrealistic as mine. Do it at VIR instead of Texas!
The reason I would do it through the dealers is precicely to give them a "stake" in the future of Buell at their dealership through the race team.
If your Dealer's mechanics, salesmen and the like are excited about their Buell race team, this excitement is likely to reflect in the way the sales, parts and service departments treat you as a Buell owner. JMHO
I agree with you about the 748's, the AMA made a HUGE mistake when they allowed that bike into the class. It turned into a Ducati spec class sponsored by Buell! |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:35 pm: |
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The way I see it, the only way to get people from SV's to Buells is to knock $4000 off the price!..and that's certainly not realistic. Buells are destined to stay just as rare on the track as on the street. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
IMO there is a street version of the racebikes...they're at your local dealer...or in your garage. Now throw wads of $$ into it, and wala...your "racebike". A lot of people complain about the price as is, and not many would pay an obscene amount of money for sub-600 Supersport performance.
I just think Blake's ideas are closer to target, if anything. I just don't feel inclined to nit pick...that'd take too long. 
I've noticed that a few classes that allow bikes in the Buellish performance range specifically exclude the 4 valve ducs and anything bigger than smaller displacement multi's. Still, given another season, I think Buell would've (finally) triumphed. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 04:39 am: |
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"Blakes suggestions are excellent"
 
"except for 3 (they would need to sell a street version)"
Uh, what is the XB9R?  I'm simply talking about a track prepared XB9R. Nothing more. It would qualify in all applicable classes.
"...7 (Pro Thunder Racers yes, Erik NO WAY (LIABILITY)) and 9 (same thing),"
How is it more risky, liability wise, to let EB ride around a relatively safe tight, technical racetrack versus letting him mix it up on the road amongst traffic and road hazards? I'm sorry, I just don't understand that logic. Sure, keep him off the Pro-Thunder bikes and the high speed tracks. Maybe if we call it a "Private Road Course" instead of a "racetrack", we can sneak it past the weenies.
I truly believe that if Buell can get their reputation for quality turned around, there will be plenty of racers on XB9R's in the coming years. As soon as a few XB9R's start taking the SV650's to school, those with the means to do so will make the switch.
You must remember that racing is a VERY expensive hobby what with travel and lodging expenses, entry fees, tires, equipment... Spending another $3K on a bike is peanuts to many of these guys. Heck, some of the guys that race their SV's spend a fortune on engine work and suspension components; they won't be spending any more on an XB9R racer. And of course, the used market should favor the XB9R.
We should also note that we haven't seen any SV650's winning against the UJM 600's, so to put them on par with the XB9R is a stretch. The XB9R just has too many superior components and design aspects.
Let's race! |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 04:47 am: |
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Anyway, back to the Buell statement... what do you imagine is in the works? 100 RWHP XB12 variants? A water-cooled square four? A mongo single cylinder racer? What has BMC got up its sleeves such that Buell "...has only just begun to leave its mark on the sport of racing" ?  |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 06:32 am: |
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It may be years before we see it, but I'm betting that engineers at Buell are currently working on an engine that is radically different from the current one.
Their racing options (and respect) will be slim if they continue to just increase displacement, and it's got to drive Erik crazy to pick up magazines and constantly read "Nice bike, too bad it doesn't have a better engine."
How does Buell become more competitive in both racing and sales, very simple: USE A BETTER ENGINE
We've all accepted that developing a completely new engine along with completely new bike would have strained Buell/Harley resources, but what are all those engineers doing now? How many engineers does it take to design a flyscreen?
Racing, pollution and noise regulations combined with the well known deficiencies of the current engine all point to a new powerplant. The only question is "when"? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 08:51 am: |
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On one hand, the current engine seems like it is VERY at home on the XB9S, but it does seem a little out of place in the XB9R.. But would Buell want to support two engines? Maybe if one or both of them are shared with the sportster...
It seems like the 9R would really gain something with a modern engine, but the 9S would loose something. It's a shame they can't show off more of the engine on the 9S due to the frame though... |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 09:07 am: |
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How bout an XB9RR? Consider a small run, homologation special, with a few tricks: Use the current cam arrangement to drive a pair of belts up to each head, DOHC, 4-valve heads (or two, doesn't matter). The bike already is setup for downdraft feed. If two valve, could be factory-shipped with titanium inlet valves & higher duration cams. Street legal could be done via R7/RSV type things (just clip the grey wire & pull the bung from the airbox). Set the motor up to run OPTIMIZED at 8500rpm, 110HP shouldn't be an issue. For all the work Buell has done already, the XR750 motor is still available for fitment of a starter & alternator. I've heard dirt track XR's produce about 100hp, perhaps Erik & friends could tweak that engine up to 110hp in superstock trim, and maybe THAT would be competitive in AMA superstock. Just ideas... |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:27 am: |
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Personal Opinion on future Buell engine... 2 valve OHC.
Revs (and consequently HP) go up. Engine note could be VERY similar to current bikes if you forget about the mechanical clatter.
The lamo typing this foolishly believes that if you somehow ignore the change in head height, the XL / XB motors could be adapted to run OHC by a chain or belt drive through the pushrod tubes / manifold. Maybe a new case half or something - I don't know.
Just imagine - 10K (?) instead of 7.5K (XB HP peak rpm?). 33% more HP - all other things being equal.
Whatever. Leave it to Da Man. He'll build something COOL and probably even more formidable next.
-Saro |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:15 am: |
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The knife and fork rod arrangement would have to go to support high rpms. To be competitive, the engine would have to spin five figures. I couldn't imagine what kind of vibrations would be generated at 10,000 rpms by this heavy and archaic system.
The XR750 engine is totally unsuitable for production and would require much more than a fitment of a starter and electrics to be viable.
The Sportster engine has been taken as far as it can go. If only the Company could have developed the engine sooner. Can you imagine Sportsters being competitive with Z1s and GS1000s 25 years ago?
Just a thought. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:25 pm: |
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"The Sportster engine has been taken as far as it can go."
How can you possibly say that? Look at how far it has come in just the last five years. Look at what the Pro-Thunder bikes are doing. It might take some advanced technology and creative thinking/designing, but there is certainly still a lot left on the table in the pushrod 45o V-Twin engine. Stuff like nicasil cylinders, lightweight composite rods, ceramic coatings, active acoustic suppression...
As to the common crank pin. Same story. If it needs beefed up, it can certainly be beefed up. I don't understand all the absolutes. Telling me I can't make something work is the best way to guarantee that I can. Know what I mean?
Pollution is NOT an insurmountable issue for these engines either. The UJM IL4's and a plethora of other motorcycles already require catalyst exhausts to meet current emissions standards; why not the air cooled Harleys and Buells? The big air cooled engines have many advantages over other engine configurations when it comes to emissions performance...
1. Cold engines pollute a LOT. An air cooled engine's combustion chamber warms up much faster than a liquid cooled engine's; thus the time spent operating in the worst case condition wrt emissions is minimized.
2. The long stroke roller bearing engine is more efficient achieving 20% to 30% better fuel efficiency compared to most comparably powered liquid cooled motorcycles on the market today.
3. The relatively lower compression ratios of Buell engines results in less NOx pollutants.
4. Need better emissions? Incorporate a catalytic exhaust. Too simple eh?
Noise is an issue and it pisses me off, but there are lots of ways to handle that problem. Active acoustic suppression (interference) being the most intriguing. Plus I'm convinced that if Buell really needs to, they can significantly reduce mechanical noise emanating from the engine and primary.
The noise issue pisses me off because the EPA ignores tire noise, THE major noise pollution source in any urban setting.
And what about...
gas powered line trimmers,
lawn mowers,
car stereos,
and those darn high school marching bands!
What about the air brakes on tractor/trailer rigs?
What about the blaring railroad engines that pass through many urban population centers?
What about the slew of private aircraft flying over my home?
What about my neighbors' barking mutts?
What about the gaggle of personal watercraft disrupting my scenic and peaceful lake outing?
What about the volume on my television doubling in intensity whenever a commercial comes on?
See, you got me all worked up.
Oh yeah, something needs to be done about the durn Blue Jays raising a ruckus on my front lawn every day and the coyotes howling at night. The EPA oughta muffle the darn things.  |
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