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Torqd
| | Posted on Thursday, September 05, 2002 - 02:46 pm: | 
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The heads are using a 1.90" intake valve with new seats...a little more work than the 1.84" valve with stock seats...but seems to be worth the effort. |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 12:52 pm: |
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Aaron:
I was wondering if you would post some time-to-peak power graphs from time to time. Sometimes such info can reveal how fast a motrocycle will accelerate.
I'm sure you've heard my story on a 120 HP turbochatged S2 that took so long to actually reach its "powerband" that my 75 HP (at the time) lighter S1 could easily outrun it off the line. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 03:37 pm: |
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The dyno determines hp literally by measuring how fast the bike spins up the drum. What's the difference? |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 03:54 pm: |
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I don't know what difference you are refering to, I was just wondering if sometime you would use time for an X axis instead of rpm. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 04:28 pm: |
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What I'm getting at is that if the acceleration is higher, that'll be reflected in the horsepower chart. If it's showing more power at a given rpm, that means it's accelerating faster, because the acceleration of the drum is the mechanism by which the power is measured.
I can see how time to power might be a meaningful metric on a brake dyno, though, essentially it's a way to look at the flywheel effect which the brake dyno may not be showing you. But an inertia dyno is already showing the flywheel effect. |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 07:59 pm: |
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Cool! Thanks for the education... |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:01 pm: |
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Don't dyno operators use time-to-speed to run simulated drag races? Seems like a bike with big low end but lacking some on top could win out over a bike tuned for peak HP. I think that is what JM is getting at. Start the run at 50 mph in high gear and record the time to get to 120 mph.
Hey, I just realized, my camera software is online and working. I can post my dyno chart! |
Aaron
| | Posted on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 08:30 pm: |
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Hmm, doesn't seem like time to speed or time to hp would really tell you who would win a drag race. Time to distance is what wins a drag race. And most folks don't roll on it when they're drag racing, they're trying to run the motor up around it's hp peak an they're shifting gears to keep it there. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 03:09 am: |
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That's a good point. Can the dynojet report results versus distance? Seems like it easily could; that would just entail multiplying the speed interval times the time interval, (FT/s)*s=FT. I guess time from speed #1 to speed #2 would be akin to a roll-on test. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 04:06 am: |
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Dear Nallin Racing,
Please give me a top end package with big low end and midrange, peak HP is not a priority.
Here are the actual pump results...
1997 Buell Cyclone M2
Nallin Racing 1250 Kit
... Millenium Technologies Nicasil lined Hypereutectic Aluminum Cylinders
... Nallin Racing Hurricane Pistons (10.5:1 CR)
... Stage-2 headwork
CM580 cams (0.580" lift, 240o/240o duration)
Buell CF Race Intake w/K&N Filter
Air filter on/off gave same results.
Stock CV carburetor (jetted)
S1W Headers (2-1/2" collector)
Borla CF Muffler
Stock lifters
Stock Rockerbox
Jim's Adjustable Pushrods
Dyna 2000 Selectable Ignition Module (curve #3)
Static Timing retarded 3o from factory recommended stock setting)
Stock Coil (dual fire)
Mobil-1 20W50 Engine Oil
Royal Purple 75W90 Transmission Oil
Run was performed in 5th gear.
A very badly imbalanced rear wheel resulted in the wheel hop squiggly stuff at high speeds. We did some runs to 7,500 rpm. Not sure why the sudden drop at 6,800 rpm. On the 7,500 rpm runs, the HP continued to rise again after the 6,800 rpm spike-like drop.
This was on a very humid day, like 80% RH. Supposedly the dyno is affected negatively by high humidity.
Anyone have any ideas about the drop at 6,800 rpm
? Please chime in. Brian suggested it was probably carburetor related. You don't see many stock CV's supporting 100+RWHP. We unfortunately didn't have time to try to figure it out.
A/F was running between 12 and 12.8, maybe a bit rich, but when running flat out on the track in the Texas heat, a little rich is a bit of an engine protective issue. We don't want to melt an engine due to an unforeseen intake leak.
Once I have the race exhaust fitted, I'll put her back on the dyno. Predictions?
Would also like to see what an HSR42 or CV44 and possibly just out of curiosity (to see how high she would go) some Red shift 585's would bring to the party. The CM 580 cams do a great job of producing arm wrenching low end torque, but they do fall off earlier. I'd expect the Red Shifts to simply shift the torque curve to the right by around 500 rpm. Gee, wish I had my own dynamometer. ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 06:32 am: |
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Hmmm, could it be wet sumping? That would explain the sudden drop then continued rising HP. |
Noface
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 07:27 am: |
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windage trays are a good thing...
you just have to tear the engine down further.
Winter's on it's way!
Jody |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:03 am: |
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East Texas gets like two weeks of "winter".   
But anyway, would wet sumping be controlled by a windage tray? I think not. I think high rpm induced wet sumping is more a result of inadequate oil pump and passage dynamics is it not? A windage tray would treat the symptom, but would it treat the root cause (too much oil accumulating in the crankcase)? |
Petel
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 01:43 pm: |
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Blake:
Does it do this on every run?
The sudden dive at 6800 seems to be carb related to my in-experienced eye.
Std Keihin CV40..Just a thought,could it be fuel/float level related?
Draining the bowl,cutting out then picking up as the bowl re-fills??
Does the A/F ratio richen or weaken at that dip?
Petel. 02 M2. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:29 pm: |
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Don and I did a dyno shootout at High Country HD in Frederick, CO today. Man there were a lot of crappy running bikes presented, for some reason. The vast majority of what I saw, I ain't even gonna post. But I thought these were interesting ...
This is a '98 ZX9R with Yosh pipes and a jet kit. Didn't take rpm, but I took it to 12K.
This is a basically stock Suzuki 1400 intruder.
This is a basically stock Honda Shadow 750.
This is a '99 M2, Force pipe and some kind of cams. Blue is with new style Forcewinder, red is with no air cleaner. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Saturday, September 07, 2002 - 10:35 pm: |
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Almost forgot ... a Ducati 748 |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 02:21 am: |
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Cool stuff. Thanks for taking time to post the charts Aaron.
Petel,
Yes, it happened every time. Brian also suggested it was most likely CV carb related. The A/F didn't change significantly. The drop in power was not noticeable except on the chart (there was no noticeable cutting out or bogging down, just smacking hard into the rev limiter at 7,500.
Maybe the stock lifters giving up a little, or some kind of valvetrain harmonics? |
Peter
| | Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 03:01 am: |
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The Intruder owner had to be depressed. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 09:25 am: |
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Yeah, isn't that a sorry dyno sheet? Guess that motor is made for torque or something. Same deal with that 750 Honda. 37.8hp? Fercrissakes. And that's a physically BIG motorcycle.
That Duc has a strange step function going. It was a sweet sounding motor though.
We had another guy present a Forcewinder/CV equipped bike, too. Oddly, it made a clean pull, albeit with disappointing power. I pulled the air cleaner off to see what would happen and it got all choppy on me! Well, I plugged in the sniffer, and saw that without the air cleaner, it had gone a mile rich. So basically, what was going on with the bike was he had fattened it a ton to overcome the Forcewinder induced leanness. I explained to him that he essentially had 2 things wrong with his bike (ineffective bowl vent and excessively rich jetting) but they were sorta cancelling each other out. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 09:43 am: |
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Geesh. Those forcewinder dynos are depressing.
I ground out my bowl vent to match the old style. Would there be any value in trying to route the vent outside the forcewinder (like drill through and put on a small external vent)? |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 08, 2002 - 11:25 am: |
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Reep,
It is important that the float bowl communicate directly with the carburetor intake. Routing the breather to the atmosphere outside the intake would result in an over-rich condition by increasing the pressure applied to the fuel in the bowl, thus increasing fuell flow to the jets. You might be able to rejet for such a configuration, but it is not optimal for the float bowl to lose communication with the intake, which at high speed and WOT is at a significantly lower pressure than atmospheric air. |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 08:52 am: |
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Blake, I have a copy of the H-D Sportster Performance Handbook by Buzz Buzzelli. There is a section in there on Buells & it discusses BMC experimenting with an 88ci engine. If I recall the numbers correctly, they got just a tad over 100hp with the stock cv. Then they tried an S&S carb & obtained 121hp. Of course I wouldn't expect yours to jump to that with just a carb change, but I'm sure you'll do better with a Mikuni as well as your engine breathes.
Dave |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, September 09, 2002 - 07:44 pm: |
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Dave,
That is interesting. The CM580 cams are not built for top end. There is someone on ebay selling Mik HSR42's for only $285. It is tempting. I think I'd rather go with the CV44 though to maintain a measure of temperature and elevation compensation. |
Redstripe
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 01:50 pm: |
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Aaron,
Sweet sounding 748? I can imagine, it's a lovely bike. Best I ever rode chassis-wise.
And that includes some of the better modern-day superbikes.
It is, however, a bike that in the standard settings is somewhat "crippled" with a lean mixture thanks to the homologation rules and such.
Sound familiar ? 
Seen as the performance dyno, they probably tested a bip. SP/SPS will give true 104 bHp giving away quite some mid-range.
Yet we're talking out-of-the-crate racebikes there.
So they munch their own camshafts within 15.000 mls.
Very confronting though, some of these specs...
J. |
Torqd
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:54 am: |
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Well here you go... a few more miles, synthetic oil, and a few timing adjustments...131 and 107 if you round up:-) Just for fun I put one of my best 88ci dynos from before...you be the judge...I can't wait to ride this beast...should be crazy fun.
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Aaron
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 01:02 pm: |
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Damn! That's impressive, Frank. Is that with the 643's? |
Rippin
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 02:58 pm: |
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Frank
That rocks. Glad to see you got her together since Peoria TT. Give me a buz about the Slimey Crud coming up. I might not have the upstairs done by then but the couch is pretty nice to sleep on! Hoover(orange M2) hopes you can make it up for that also! I'll catch you later.
Ryan |
Torqd
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 03:19 pm: |
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No... that is with the 585's! Can you believe it? I can't wait... I can't believe that it wants to pull to 7500 like that...I can only guess that the 643 would rev even higher...not that I want to...the longer the revs... the closer to beating that R1 that wants to run me:-) Funny thing...about three years ago a local engine builder did a custom 74 ci buell that was using the 643's and lightning heads that made 107 hp...that was three years ago...the bike is still going today...the heads were totally welded up and he made his own deal... but the crazy thing is that he reeeevvvvved it 8250 all the time...I swear...I saw him doing it...it seems that these redshift cams can make some huge power but the bikes seem to be able to take it...what do you think of revving an 88 7500rpm..on a daily basis..I am ready to let it eat and see what happens... |
Smokin84
| | Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:32 pm: |
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...what do you think of revving an 88 7500rpm..on a daily basis.. ... I like it alot! How much longer do I get to keep it? Maybe in a couple of weeks I'll have time to try out the 643s. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 01:50 am: |
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Hey Allen,
I suppose you'd force me to take Frank's bike for a ride if I stopped by eh?
Test and tune this (Friday) evening at Hallsville Raceway. I may take the M2 out and see what a drag race is all about. Meet me out there! |
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