| Author | Message | ||
     Dynarider |
Jeff, I wouldnt bet on an XB beating a V-Rod in a staright line. Thats what that bike was built to do & it does it well. | ||
| Rick_A |
Buell definitely would see a bigger slice of the market with that repli-racer "everybody" wants...but they surely don't need it, IMO. As far as the H-D cruiser crowd Sportsters may be foot in the door models. In reality a Sportster is a better performer than the rest of the air-cooled H-D lineup. I don't think the big bore Buells are foot in the door models in any respect. That's what the Blast's mission is, which it's been doing very well. Most people seem to want to keep their Buell when moving towards something else. Given their reputation it seems that most prospecting Buell owners are well aware that somewhat of a "commitment" is neccesary for ownership (at least with the tube framed models). | ||
| Anonymous |
Jose -- you deserve to buy the next V-Rod derivative. Just expect to get your ass kicked by Buells from the same model year. | ||
| Hootowl |
Dynarider, How much does the VROD weigh? The XB has at least a hundred pounds on it, and only 20 (or so) less HP. That's got to count for something (I'm talking out of my ass since I have no hard numbers..) | ||
| Court |
Just me. . . but in all my years of "likin' Buells" I've never been inclined to or thought about ginin' this much analysis. I just like'em. Ya'll have your own well thought out metrics, but I have to tell you. From the days when there were six of us and I'm getting ready to meet and greet Buell owners from 6 countries....well, that reaches my threshold of amazement. Court | ||
| Darthane |
You guys crack me up. Buell should make a repliracer. Buell shouldn't make a repliracer. Buell will make a repliracer. Blah, blah, blah. Bottom line is, Buell's aren't meant to compete with repliracers. They're meant for people who want something real world that's 'different in every sense'. __________________________________________________ Quote, straight from the newest Fuell: It's always been very interesting to me to watch the various players in the motorcycle industry go about their business in terms of their overall philosophies and, in particular, how they choose to compete. One-upmanship has been the order of the day for so long, especially in the sportbike world. Quarter-mile time? Top speed? Who has the most valves? Why do you have to take a long look to tell one manufacturer's bike from another's? As a Buell owner, you know that we approach our business from a much different angle. We use product development to help you make a statement about who you are. What's important to us at Buell and BRAG is what's important to you, the rider. We know that you hunger for a truly memorable experience - on the road. And you like to have a lot more fun than the average person. ::snipped paragraph:: Let the other guys worry about who'll be first to break the sound barrier. We're to busy having fun in the real world. Where's the nearest gnarly road? Man, I love this stuff! Erik Buell __________________________________________________ I just thought that was very relevant given the current discussion here. Straight from the mouth of the man who started it all. I could care less if Buell makes 1,000 or 20,000 bikes, as long as they continue the basic philosophy that's been evident in all the bikes that carry the name so far. From that passage, I'd say it's not going to change any time soon, and my hat's off to Erik for sticking to his guns in a bigger, more, and faster world. I don't ride a Buell because it's American. I ride one because of what Buell himself stated above, and I don't see a Japanese manufacturer making any effort to create anything non cookie-cutter. Bryan | ||
| Msetta |
If it matters, I have ridden both, unfortunately not flat out, but I believe the VROD can out accelerate the XB off the line. The thing is, the VROD is a complete pig in the corners. Setta | ||
| Dynarider |
Motorcyclist magazine lists these times for the 2 bikes. Firebolt....11.71@113.74 V-Rod.......11.31@114.95 V-Rod wins the drag race with no issue at all. I would gladly give up a couple pounds for 20 extra hp. | ||
| Court |
>>>>>V-Rod wins the drag race with no issue at all. I'm missing something here. Tell me what that means. What's wrong with me? How come I lust for a 1996 S-1 and have absolutely no interest in a V-Rod when empirical evidence clearly shows it can travese 1/4 mile a fraction of a second faster? I have to be missing something.... | ||
| Msetta |
I agree Court, numbers aren't everything. The VROD is a real pig in the corners and I actually found it uncomfortable, the seat isn't great. That being said, I would not mind a little more umph off the line with the XB, but to be fair, I have not tried a race kitted XB. My 99 M2 pulls harder off the line than the stock XB. Setta | ||
| X1glider |
The issues I have with the V-rod is "can it be bored out?" Can the bike be made lighter? I finally got to ride it. In typical wannabee poser cruiser style, it is a pig in the turns, too heavy, too long and too much rake. Non adjustable forks too. Let's face it, HD engine design hasn't changed much since the knucklehead and the v-rod engine gets all kinds of praise simply because it is the biggest departure for them in 60 years. Others have made this engine many years ago, there's truly nothing special about it. On a positive note, it is pretty quick in a straight line. XB: It dosn't make sense to design a bike because of what people say the bike should be. That would put them in the same class as the rice and pasta bike clones. That market is extremely fickle and brand loyalty is almost non existent. People will switch back and forth depending on who has the ever so slightly better flavor of the month. Let the bike be what it is. Period. This is how HD has survived 100 years and this is how Buell will prosper as well...by offering a product no one else is willing to create. Give me the choice. | ||
| Davegess |
I WILL SAY THIS JUST ONE MORE TIME AND THAN THOSE OF YOU WHO DO NOT GET IT WILL BE FOREVER BE CONDEMNED TO A LIFE OF IGNORANCE. ride the dam motorcycle. it is simply the most amazing performing bike i have ever ridden. it reminds me very much of a detomaso mangusta, and yes i have driven one, great big honkin' low tech high torque motor driving a very sophisticated chassis. EXCEPT the firebolt is not just like the other high po it sets new rules. it does not do the things the other bikes do better than they do no it redefines the rules and does them differently and much much better. erik has said and that roadracingworld report confirms it, this is a 250gp bike with a great big honkin' torque monster motor. this is a new kind of motorcycle. this is a small volumn exotic vehicle that has to cost more than the ujm's and does not follow their rules. ride one on twisty road and i suspect you will not come back thinking "boy this thing needs more power" no you will come back thinking "holy sh1t i can't believe i could go that fast" dave | ||
| Steve_A |
It's clear that the XB loses most of its ground to the V-Rod off the line. That's one advantage that big, long cruisers have over sportbikes -- they'll launch harder without wheelieing over backwards. The 52-inch wheelbase does not help the XB at the dragstrip. That said, the fairly similar terminal speeds at the end of the quarter indicates that the power-to-weight advantage of the V-Rod over the XB is slight. A kitted XB would almost certainly be quicker and faster than a stock V-Rod on the road, if not at the strip from a standing start. And while the V-Rod handles pretty well for a cruiser, it's grinding metal and scaring you when an XB still has another 20 degrees to go. But the Revolution engine is generally pretty delightful in the V-Rod; it's smooth, quiet, and torquey. But it's also well over 200 pounds in installed form, and I'm told by Erik that if you were to attempt to package it in the XB frame, you'd find that the rear cylinder head would actually project beyond the outside (!) edge of one of the XB's main frame beams. I'm sure Harley will use the Revolution in more machines than the V-Rod (they've said as much), and I'm also sure it's not very likely to make it into a Buell in the forseeable future. And has anyone else noticed that while the 2003 XB's sell for $10K, the list price for a 2003 V-Rod is $18,700? Comparing the two is apples and oranges in more than the obvious ways. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Steve, Comparing a racekitted bike to a stock bike is apples and oranges. I agree the Revo engine will not be seen in a Buell. Hopefully they get something better, like a four stroke square four?
 You mean like the rear cylinder of the XB already does? If you drop the 52" wheelbase, there is no reason that chassis could not wrap around the Revolution Engine. In fact, I read the XB9R review by Sir Alan Carhart in a Brittish Magazine called "Motorcycle Tour & Leisure" in which he mentioned that Erik originally proposed and designed a fuel in the frame chassis for the VR1000 race bike! Next time you talk to Erik ask him if this is true or not. Erik told me to "wait for the book" when I asked him to talk about his involvement with the VR1000 project at the Pocono Brag Rally. Yes, comparing the VRod to the XB is apples and oranges except at the dealer sales floor. Which one is meeting sales expectations and which one is rumored to be below expectations? Funny, this all started by you asking what Buell needed to do to get the consumer to believe their claims of improved reliability. Peter said increase the Warranty to Three years. I agree that would be the simplest way to start. | ||
| Jim_M |
"Comparing a racekitted bike to a stock bike is apples and oranges." You're also comparing an 1100+ cc bike to a 984 cc bike, nevermind the air v. liquid cooled argument. Firebolt....11.71@113.74 V-Rod.......11.31@114.95 gee, that doesn't look that bad now...for almost double the price, you can edge out a 984 cc air cooled bike by less than half a second? | ||
| Hootowl |
I wouldn't call .4 seconds and ~1 MPH a trouncing. Was the same guy riding both bikes? Or at least two people of roughly the same weight? Besides, if HD is trying to attract the "younger performance oriented crowd" they shouldn't have built a cruiser, no matter how much power it has. I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the squids are buying sportbikes that, by the way, WILL eat the Vrod's lunch and for a whole lot less money. | ||
| Blake |
José, The leap you are making from V-Rod to HD sport bike falls short of reality even more than Evel Knievel's Snake River Canyon jump. I agree with anonymous. Do you really think that the XB9R is intentioned as a "beginner's bike"?   Sorry, I've never seen a "beginner's bike" with such aggressive ergonomics and finely tuned performance. The blast is a beginner's bike. The XB9R is anything but. | ||
| Dynarider |
I think it looks real bad Jim. Lets see, you have Buells top of the line "race replica" bike getting beat soundly by a road sofa. Dont forget the fact that the V-Rod is also sporting 200+ lbs more. It should be down right embarrassing to have your ass handed to you by a stock Harley cruiser. Dont you think the bike that is "sporty & roadraced" should be qwiker than a V-rod? Harley beat the imports at their own game with the Rod, lets hope they are planning on doing it with the Buell line as well. Erik keeps spewing this "real world" bike crap, yet like was stated by someone else, V-Rods are sold out & Bolts sit on the dealer floor. | ||
| Dynarider |
BTW Jeff, .4 seconds in dragracing is an eternity. | ||
| Steve_A |
"You mean like the rear cylinder of the XB already does? If you drop the 52" wheelbase, there is no reason that chassis could not wrap around the Revolution Engine." No, Jose -- as in a Revolution rear cylinder head falls outside the outer side of the frame rail from plan view, not just sticking above it when looked at from the side. As in, there's no way it's going to fit unless you want to build another 55-inch bike -- which Erik isn't going to do unless it's for a very good reason. You can buy an Aprilia if that's what you want; just don't expect Buell to build motorcycles that others already have. As for the origins of the XB frame design, you will have to wait for the book, but I believe the Firebolt preview article for CW said that the design had been on the shelf at Buell for substantially more than a decade. And as far as I know, both motorcycles are selling to expectations, with Firebolt demand being particularly strong in Europe. Early indications from US dealers are that the XB-S is going to be much more popular than the XB-R in this country, and Buell is allocating production accordingly. Firebolts might be hard to come by when the current batch sells. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Two corrections, the magazine is called Motorcycle Sport and Leisure, May 2002, and the author's name is Alan Cathcart   Jim_M Why pay $10-11k when I can spend a little over HALF (SV650) and not be too far of the XB's drag strip times? | ||
| Josh |
Jose, So buy another SV650. Why do you keep harping on it here? Want a Revo-powered 'Bolt? Go build one. How hard can it be right? | ||
| Dynarider |
I also believe the XB-S will be more popular here, hell how could it not be? As far as the bolt meeting sales expectations, I believe it was Court himself who stated a while back the bike was not meeting them. Why else would you allocate production for the S if the R is so popular? Every single dealer I have been in lately, & I hit a lot of em has a bolt on the floor & nobody is checking em out. The people I ride with who have tube frames are holding on to them & want no part of the new bikes. And its the same old theme from all of them, bike too small, & not enuff power. | ||
| Aaron |
"don't expect Buell to build motorcycles that others already have" I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement  Right or wrong, Buell's strategy since their inception has consistently been to offer an alternative to what's already being made. Obviously, some people think that's a bad strategy. I'm not so sure. But perhaps my view is rooted in selfishness, because I like the fact that it's not like other bikes. In any event, I suspect the folks at Buell know a whole helluva lot more about the market, their own resources and cost structure, and the resources and cost structure of the other players than all of us put together. I give'em the benefit of the doubt and assume they know what they're doing. | ||
| Josh |
I do know that a longer warranty and a financing deal will put a XB (probably R) in my garage as fast as they can deliver it. Until then I'm watching for steals on an XB or S1. Josh | ||
| Davegess |
I finally see Josè's problem with he 'bolt. He want's one bad but his rational mind is telling him it is not good value for the money. Josè, lay down on the coach and simply relax. Tell me about your childhood. What did you want but could not have? Relax let he power flow into you and you will see that the 'bolt is good. Motorcycles are not about value for dollar but about LUST  )) Josè my man ya gotta get one out and wring it's neck. "bolt sales? I hear that they are doing fine in the US and very very well in europe. Not flying off the floor like the harleys but meeting targets. Alan Cathcart is often right. | ||
| Steve_A |
"Two corrections, the magazine is called Motorcycle Sport and Leisure, May 2002, and the author's name is Alan Cathcart" Jose, check your facts a little more carefully. I do believe I was there before Mr. Cathcart: "So instead of abandoning the 250 GP size, Erik suggested resurrecting a design he had done in 1989 for an unproduced prototype, one that wrapped huge beams around the engine, and used all the volume inside the beams to replace the fuel tank. That was the key that finally allowed the Firebolt package to come together." From the CW preview article, probably about the September 2001 issue. Ask Court about the "unproduced prototype" someday. Of course, he'd have to kill you afterwards. :-) | ||
| Bomber |
I rode a bolt . . .loved it, but the riding position would simply not allow my heavily aftermarket modified knees to work after about 30 minutes . . . .the Lightening, however, likely will . . . .. read, will . . . . . . truth to tell, my Y2K M2 is a better bike than I am a rider, and I've only REALLY wanted more engine 5 or 6 times (in approx 20K miles) . . . . I'd take more, clearly, but only really needed it seldom . . . . . I rode it, and wrote a chcek. Likely, the same will happen with the lightening -- I'm not too concerned with how the spec sheet holds up, as I don't ride them very often | ||
| Hootowl |
My point has been taken out of context. 0.4 seconds IS an eternity at the strip. But to market the VRod towards the younger performance oriented crowd is a mistake. That crowd wouldn't be caught dead on a cruiser. (No matter how fast it is, it's still a cruiser.) They're into sportbikes. The XB is a sportbike, and it would attract their attention far sooner than the VRod. If you're not at the strip, their performance numbers are VERY close. You make it sound like a VRod would leave an XB rider scratching his (or her) head wondering where that other bike went off to. | ||
| Jim_M |
Dyna.. "I think it looks real bad Jim. Lets see, you have Buells top of the line "race replica" bike getting beat soundly by a road sofa. " but it's not a race replica. I believe the mission of this bike was to be the best back road bike in the world...whether or not it is is subject to debate, however, it was not meant to be a drag bike. So giving up .4 seconds to a porsche designed engine in a drag bike body (I believe that was what the VRod was supposed to be) isn't a big deal ;^D |
