| Author | Message | ||
     Slypiranna |
It seems to be anyone's best guess as the dealer's service manager that first said this was new is kind of backing out on anything more than an "update" to the reflash that we know of. The customer's bike was a late build so it was already flashed with what we think of as the latest version. This customer did report feeling a difference though and why an update to the current one without being a new one is something that I cannot get my head around...It's really hard to know without getting REAL input from BMC or pulling the ecu file and comparing. If and when we can get such verified info AND before I reflash AGAIN, I will be pulling and saving my current flash to disc...just in case. I'm convinced that Xb9 is right, to perfect each and every bike might just lead to custom mapping. There seems to be just too many variables for one burn to cover. That is where this 11 is heading, based upon what we've experienced thus far. mm | ||
| Cataract2 |
ok, I'm lost. So this is an update to the existing flash? If so what did it change? Come on, we need some better info here. | ||
| Xb9 |
Since a couple of other Dealer's have checked HD-Net and there is nothing new but the current (first) re-flash, I think someone was told something by a Dealer that was incorrect. That's how rumors get started......I guess we're still waiting on the second one. | ||
| Thurstonbuell |
Xb , Got my bike back finally , she's sporting a new pair of translucent red wheels ......Ooooooo Baby ! A little bird told me yesterday at WRHD in Mentor , that some other little bird told them disconnecting the sensors might smooth her out ..... Took her straight home , did the disconnect and..... OMG , my old "pre" flash 1125 was back , she's sooooooo smooth now , and looking great , my love affair is starting all over . Only problem left is someone thought my plastic puck on the clutch hub needed an O-ring to stop the leak , I didnt argue , but got her home to find she's still marking her territory , oh well , I'll have to take her back in , LATER , right now I've got some bonding to do  | ||
| Jotrevza |
Hey guys, I bought one back in the beginning of June, and think it's a great bike, although, I'm having most of the same problems you guys are seeing. If I'm stuck behind traffic in town, this thing sucks around 3500-4000 with this "surging" problem. I see a little flickering at idle due to what I think is a voltage regulation problem, and once in a while pulling away from a stoplight, she'll stall for no reason when you crack the throttle back. This stuff gets old after spending this much on a new machine. My dealer doesn't seem to know too much about this bike yet, so, I'm doing the servicing until they get a few under their belts. Why play "guinea pig" when I don't have to? I'll get the best of the riding season out of it then send it off to have most of the bugs worked out in the off-season. Having said all that...... I'd own a second one if I could afford it. It's love! Stay safe, Tracy | ||
| Teach |
Thurstonbuell Glad you got your bike back. I heard about disconnecting the O2 sensors, but I am going to wait awhile. Also, I fear a "domino effect" where making one change might solve one problem and create others. I have faith that BMC is going to get these issues resolved. | ||
| Zac4mac |
No need to "race tune" just let her "learn" I've got the puzzle solved, finally. Start the bike, let her warm to temp - 151˚F Find somewhere you can do 4 minutes at 45 mph continuously. Third gear, 4000 rpm, flat to a slight drop for four minutes. You now have a new bike. I've tried it in Wisconsin, Nebraska and home in Colorado. Works every time. Try it. Z | ||
| Xb9 |
With production and manufacturing tolerances, break-in process and a multitude of other variables, no two engines end up the same, and some seem to have more of a problem with the stock mapping than others. Then throw in the Gov't regs which force the designers to put it in a lean running state on the very edge in this RPM range. If yours runs great, lucky you & leave it alone! If yours runs poorly, read on. Mapping, if done properly will transform this bike to perfection in the lower RPM range. Of course, not for public highway use - race only. It is the cure for the following issues below 4K: Surging. Bucking. Stumbling. Once corrected - WOW, not the same bike.. If you take a look at the fuel and timing maps, from a tuner's eye the root cause is very obvious. Confirmed with a wide band 02 controller. That's all I'll say here, PM me with your return email if you want more information. | ||
| Thurstonbuell |
Teach , gotta give everyone "Kudo's" back the in service , I am a little disappointed that someone determined my clutch hub leak was from an O-ring , only to get her home and see a fresh fluid mark coming from her weep-hole , I was flattered to see her so excited to see me , but not to know she'll only need to come back in for the redesigned hub. | ||
| Kttemplar |
Thurston, You are not alone. I too was given the O-ring treatment and sent home to a weepy bike. I am currently awaiting info on what other parts I may need to get it fixed for good. Mike | ||
| Slypiranna |
+1 Xb9...all the data supports this. I for one though, wish to find resolve or at least livable ride-ability on my street going 11...even if that means a custom exhaust w/cat! Most of our tests/tunes and learnings have been done off road only for this effort. Some of us have even spent a LOT of $'s and hundreds of hours for the cause!...and continue! I'm still sure in the fact that this bike, on a whole, can be configured/improved to be exactly like we ALL wish it to be...just more time, money AND the sharing of learning information... Keep this thread alive, it all helps in one way or another. We've already come a very long way in a very short period of time... mm | ||
| Xb9 |
Those o-ring diagnostics for the leak are inept. It's a know problem, all they have to do is pick up the phone and call Buell. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
OK guys, please do not think I am thick headed but after all that has been said I still have a few questions. First background: for me riding on my usual ride I'm going through 3000-4000 ft elevation changes. I ride with much on and off throttle with many wide rpm changes, some to redline. This we have determined is open loop riding. Only steady state is short distances on the freeway which would probably be closed loop riding. With this said my question then is: If I'm using the ECM main map for most of my ride and its on an already learned map from steady state cruising at lower elevations, how does the ECM adjust for the elevation changes in a short time frame? Does the ECM main map STILL adjust some for these elevation changes and what sensors are used to accomplish this? My bike seems to run close to the same at any elevation and its relatively good. Strong, very little surging, etc. Lastly, with these power programmers do you know if they only adjust the main map and is that all that is needed for my type of riding? Again, I'm really not thick headed just a logical thinker that can also think "out of the box" Bob | ||
| Xb9 |
Bob, Answer: Baro sensor. I would speculate that the baro sensor detects and compensates for the elevation changes, just like the AFV does for other variables. One may have more weight than the other, but that's anybodies guess. There is only one set of fuel maps (1 frt. and 1 rear)and they are static. The AFV is applied to the map and the number is a result of what it has learned. This would be the adjustment to the map for general engine variances and fueling requirements from one engine to the next. (reference my post above) And I'm assuming the baro sensor voltage is read and is applied to the maps separately and in addition to the AFV. I think the AFV and the baro are mainly used for open loop - versus where the ecm relies on mainly the 02 sensor input in closed loop. Sheer speculation on a lot of this, but it's my best guess based on what I have seen and learned tuning Buells. (Message edited by xb9 on July 11, 2008) | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Thanks Dave, as you have said some of this is speculation but has a great basis to be correct based on your findings. Much appreciated. And we go on trying to make our 1125's even greater then they are. Good job. We will keep on searching................and experimenting. | ||
| Chevycummins |
Zac4mac, I tried your formula to try to get my bike to learn last night. No luck. 1300 miles and still 100 and 100. Next I tried the fun way and although it did not work it was still fun and probably woke up some people. I was told by a Buell tech at customer service that 100 is good. He explained to me that there fuel maps were correct for my elevation and driving and the ecm was getting the proper 02 feed back so no corrections from the ecm were required. Thats why the number has not changed. There was no need for the ecm to correct anything with the fuel maps. Don't know if that logic is correct but sounds like the fuel trim system to me on a car. Too bad my bike still runs kinda crappy. But I guess I really don't know what normal is on this thing. I really need to ride another one to see if it is better, worse or the same. Then I could tell if I had a problem or if its "normal". | ||
| Zac4mac |
Sorry Chevy. Sure worked for me, Loretta purrs and I can idle in 1st and second, 9 and 13 mph with hand off the throttle. School zones are a breeze. When I'm at 100/100 it's hard to hold on to, she bucks so much. Z | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Zac, what are your AFV's exactly? We are pretty close in elevation, I believe, and mine are running exactly 94.5 F&R, although as I have said I go up in elevation some 3000 ft. on most rides. My bike has very little surging and is good down to 15 mph and about 2000 rpm. No surging or stumbles at anything higher. I just think its a little lean at idle for EPA regs. Engine,ECM,throttle is still stock, no mods. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Bob My old ones were 94.5/94.5 Now they are 90.5/99.5 and running velvet smooth. Z | ||
| Slypiranna |
Correct me if I'm wrong (again) but AFV's have nothing to do with Closed Loop OPERATION? Based upon what we've learned thus far, AFV is a learning cycle, mainly via O2 feedback (DURING CLOSED LOOP OPERATION) that the ecu applies in a percentage to the front/rear cylinder (fuel) base maps...but ONLY during open loop operation. AFV's cannot ALTER Closed Loop operation by this ecu's design. It has yet been proven/understood if the timing maps are altered as well via the AFV function...although one would not believe so given this function's name, Adaptive FUEL. If your particular bike doesn't show a change in the AFV's then that means the base maps are within tolerance of what the O2's are reporting...this ASSUMES all Closed Loop parameters are being met during this learning period...OF WHICH HAS BEEN PROVEN A CONSTANT CYCLE. AFV's are always on the "hunt". AND if your 11 runs perfect to you(?) I'm most happy for you and second Xb9's post of leaving it alone! Go ride it and forget about it!  Why some 11's run "perfect" to a particular owner and why some do not is one reason we are looking at the many possible root differences and the likely-hood of what is actually considered "perfect" to some while not to others. The word "perception" comes to mind as part of this study. Which is a human thing. Mechanically speaking though...It may lie simply in build tolerance as has been suggested. No two are exactly alike or ridden exactly the same. It's curious to me that with over 2800 of these bikes having been built...of which we do not have good data on the destinations and/or calibrations or any credible input from the real ones in the know...that only this many have found this website and this thread. What % are we? Upon searching other forums, talking with outside sources and asking many unrelated test riders/owners & HD/BMC techs...most voice the same concerns that we've discussed here...BUT that is not reliable data. That IS proven based upon wild claims that even I have been guilty of! What we have proven thus far via many "Tests" is the understanding that some 11's cannot tolerate Closed Loop operation, due mainly to a lean/borderline lean condition, without the rider perceiving a negative...UNLESS throttled outside of this programmed area on the base fuel maps. The timing maps have been questioned and that is what we are awaiting proven info on... And there is surely more to this than what has been learned thus far. Again, time will tell, not to mention the additional $'s thrown in to boot. A lot from BMC and a lot from the few of us owners/tuners out here trying to help this effort. All that are involved in this thread seem very well educated/experienced and/or very persistent in what is considered, a "well oiled machine"! ...there are some that are not but we are working on it. OUR combined inputs/suggestions and trials and errors only help to keep us all in learning mode and of the thread's origin. My hat is off to all that really care enough to devote their time and money for whatever reason they individually have. An update from this camp...I've got my 11 in almost every individual piece right now! Totally stripped! ...and yea, honestly, she's really sexy to me this way! Have fun, ride safe and keep this learning thread alive! mm P.S. WHERE IS GUNTER? HE SHOULD BE READY TO POST AGAIN, NO? Next... | ||
| Slypiranna |
It should also be noted that "we" do not have confirmed BASE fuel map #'s to VERIFY that said calibration codes/flashes MATCH delivery locals in all regions? Just making sure we are not overlooking anything that could mud up this mix...mm More info needed! Next? | ||
| Zac4mac |
Bob - The AFV I had, I taught Loretta at the end of a 900+ mile day. She's been needing a second try at the starter for the last couple of days, so I decided to have a school session this evening on the way home from work. Warmed up for 3 or 4 minutes, then 4 miles at 4k in 3rd gear, slightly downhill. New AFVs are 85.5/94.5. After riding 1100 miles on 100/100, this is Nirvana, knowing where the "learn point" is. Z | ||
| Chevycummins |
One other thing I noticed on my bike is it surges all the way up over 7500 rpm. Its just harder to feel at higher rpms. If you run in 1st gear and try different rmps and run it steady at each rpm I can still feel it surge. I thought that the ecm switches from closed to open loop at higher rpms. It really seems to make no difference with my bike. Sometimes at low rpms under 3000 at a steady throttle it will fishbite, feels like it lost spark for a split second then comes right back. Kinda feels like a ecm master reset if it were a car. This would explain why I don't have any codes any more and why the AFV seems to stay at 100. I'm not sure if this ecm will do a master reset and loose learned data from a voltage surge. I ran into this with a car that had a ground wire moved from its original position. When the A/C coil field collapsed it caused a voltage spike back through the ground and someone put the ecm ground and the coil ground on the same bolt. I do know that the relays on these bikes have a diode built into them that shield the ecm from these field voltage spikes. | ||
| Cobradave93 |
I just tried Zac's method and it worked so far. The bike is much smoother in the 3500 rpm range with no surging. It's like a new bike. Also I noticed afterwards that the tach needle is smooth as it runs at 3500 rpm or as it passes that rpm range while accelerating (it always acted crazy and danced in that range). Now I'll just have to worry about the heat problem and fuel boiling. Is this something I'll have to do often or not? | ||
| Bob_thompson |
And this thread goes on and on and on. But thats good. I am beginning to wonder at this stage in the game how we can have such a wide disparity of ECM tuning problems except for manufacturing tolerances of the ECM and its input sensors. One way out thought I've had recently because of recent posts and particularly mine, Zac's and others who ride with elevation changes is: because of these changes and the closed loop learning curve and particularly the leaner air we are encountering and our lower AFV's have our particular ECM's in trying to adjust to leaner air actually over compensated somehow and actually richened up our systems. Seems unlikely but this stuff is so foreign to me I wonder? Whereas the guys in level rides are not seeing a change once their ECM is programmed for their particular elevation. I'm just not smart enough to figure it out so maybe I'm way off base. Where am I going wrong? Also, a great 126 mile ride today. Started on the freeway holding a steady 4000 rpm's for at least 5 miles and not one problem on the whole ride. Came back with no surging and through the neighborhood at 15 mph at 2200 or so rpm. (Message edited by bob_thompson on July 13, 2008) | ||
| Doerman |
You may be on to something there Bob regarding manufacturing variance in the hardware. Mine is operating smooth as silk and does not care whether I am at sea level or at 7K-feet altitude - often several times a day. I am still curious about the 45mph 4K rpm in 3rd gear for 4 minutes. I accidentally do that every now and again in rush hour traffic. Is that why my 1125R has been without flaw for 8800 miles now? I have come to trust this bike 100%. I take its perfect operation for granted. Zac brought the 3rd/45MPH/4minutes procedure up after he came back from Homecoming. Zac, care to share some more details? | ||
| Dalton_gang |
I was starting to think about what Zac is doing too and realised that maybe those who spend a lot of time under 4,000 rpm are having the most problems. My bike always runs its best after a good "thrashing". Maybe spending more time above 4k somehow keeps it running lean and clean. Anyone else notice this too? | ||
| Doerman |
Dunno Neal.. Sometime I bang up against the rev limiter (like today in the mountains). Other times I am behaving like a good citizen I pretend to be.  | ||
| Ccryder |
Neal: Mine always runs better after I "exercise" her ;+} If she is vibrating more than usual I'll run her hard and get her hot and, she smooths out. I can also do it in 3rd or 4th around the 4800-5500 range but, more rpm's = more fun!! Neil S. | ||
| Xb9 |
Here's a question: Do internal combustion engines better tolerate a leaner mixture at higher elevations? |
