| Author |
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Jstfrfun
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 06:18 pm: | 
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Just call Al at American Sport Bike and save time and anguish. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 10:04 pm: |
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"Jos51700, under the diagnostic sections of the ecmspy program it explains the AFV. There is the ability to reset it. have you used the program? I have."
I can honestly say that is the most short-sighted, ignorant post I have seen in a long, long time.
http://www.primenumbers.org/buell/Buell%20DDFI.pdf
Keep resetting it. You can apologise after you figure this all out. |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Friday, June 13, 2008 - 10:37 pm: |
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Jos51700. If you READ the post •••••••. I DID reset the AFV to 100baseline and it ran great. Talk about ignorant shortsighted response. YOU can apologize for being a jerk at anytime now. Did you bother reading the AFV in the ecmspy tutorial and the part where it mentions ideal baseline is 100 and the ability to reset the baseline. Oh i guess i'm shortsighted. Of course since you only ride a blast I'm sure you have tuned your x-1 or s-3 a lot of times. unlike myself, who does know how to read.
(Message edited by tom_b on June 13, 2008)
(Message edited by tom_b on June 13, 2008)
(Message edited by tom_b on June 16, 2008) |
Jramsey
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 01:03 am: |
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Tom, ignore J0s buncha #s, I do believe he's just an arm chair mechanic.
He isn't worth arguing with.
Best regards,
James another X1 owner in Ks. |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 01:34 am: |
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thanx james. kinda my point was it is in the programs to be able to reset the baseline afv. if it wasn't able to be reset, why was i able to do it, or why is it in the programs? I understand it is a variable rate(duh) but you need a baseline to start with. Mine was dicked up, why I don't know. I reset the base to 100, it runs like a champ. PERIOD, don't need some dick from springfield, Mo, whose claim to fame is questionable telling me I can't do something that software on 2 different programs say can be done. and my x-1 is running fine |
Id073897
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 02:21 am: |
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quote:There is NO such thing.
There are typical values, and atypical values, and it is constantly dynamic when riding.
After all, it's the "adaptive fuel value".
Changing constantly is what it's supposed to do.
This statement is absolutely correct. However, as said before, in some cases it's helpfull to set the AFV.
The Tuning Guide had been started before EcmSpy was released and with our limited knowledge about the function of the ECM at the beginning of EcmSpy. As long as no volunteer is going to update the docs, it should all be taken with some grain of salt.
Regards,
Gunter
(Message edited by id073897 on June 14, 2008) |
Jstfrfun
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 11:17 am: |
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Jos ought to read some of his ignorant ,short-sighted posts. Just one of those things we deal with. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Saturday, June 14, 2008 - 06:56 pm: |
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If I'm an ignorant arm-chair mechanic, how is it that I bought a house, and paid my bills for the last decade FIXING BUELLS?
Unlike Jramsey, AND Tom, I do this for a living. I can provide all the names and contact info for the FACTORY PERSONNEL that trained me. I'm far from some Driveway Hack in BFE Kansas
To reiterate, THERE IS NO IDEAL AFV.
IF so, what is the ideal AFV?
Why does YOUR AFV not stay there?
Tom, Just because you know how to read, doesn't mean you understand the concept, or know how to fix bikes. Do it for a living if you're so good.
Straight outta BMC:
http://www.primenumbers.org/buell/Buell%20DDFI.pdf
Page 5
"The normal AFV ranges based on altitude are
between 85 and 115. The higher values are found at lower altitudes and the lower values at higher altitudes."
100 means NOTHING. It is just a starting point, resettable so you don't have to ride an extremely rich or lean bike until it re-tunes after a repair. If 100 was ideal, it would stay there.
James Ramsey, I'm still waiting for my spoon. Dontcha keep yer promises? |
Jramsey
| | Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 09:58 am: |
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Must be a small house.
A decade of experience does not make one an expert let alone a pro.
Your a legend in your own mind. |
Jstfrfun
| | Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 11:25 am: |
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Some times a professional is not the right person to deal with...just from a personal level. We've all read enough of Jos's threads to know how full of himself he is , but the point is (without being RUDE) that the AFV does need to be watched when doing your diagnostics and occasionally re-set to 100 as a baseline value AS NEEDED. |
Id073897
| | Posted on Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 01:32 pm: |
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quote:but the point is (without being RUDE) that the AFV does need to be watched when doing your diagnostics and occasionally re-set to 100 as a baseline value AS NEEDED
Watched: yes.
Set: no. There's no need to do it.
AFV is an output value, not an input value. In closed loop no results at all are based on AFV and in open loop AFV stays constant to whatever value it has been set (either manually or automatically) before.
Modifying AFV is very helpfull when mixture in open loop needs to get fixed or has to be adjusted, e.g. quickly changing WOT mixture on the dyno without having to modify the map.
Quite contrary to the tuning guide I would not even recommend setting AFV to 100% before a dyno run, but instead run the bike in LCL. For a simple reason: to get it adopted to the current air pressure. The uncorrected open loop regions are valid for only one pressure: that, what had the engineers in mind, when they built the map (let's call it the standard pressure). Any differing air pressure requires another amount of fuel injected, so setting AFV to 100 is wrong in almost every situation, where the current air pressure is not the standard air pressure and will lead to wrong results. (I do not take into account all other impacts on mixture as airbox modification or wear or whatever).
Very fortunately environmental air pressure doesn't usually vary more then 3%, so it's impact is limited. On the other hand, AFV should never extend 97 - 103 then, which we all know is not true.
The conclusion is: every bike has it's own AFV, which will probably be different from 100 even if all standard conditions apply. Therefore setting the AFV to some single special value is usually counter productive, unless some changes to the bike applied, which will prevent the engine running with the already stored AFV.
Regards,
Gunter |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 08:45 am: |
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"A decade of experience does not make one an expert let alone a pro."
So how much time does it take?
"Pro" = Professional
defined:
adj.
1.
1. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
2. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
3. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
4. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
5. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.
Citing adjective 2, and noun 3;
By definition, I'm both an expert, and a pro 
(Message edited by jos51700 on June 16, 2008) |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 09:05 am: |
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"We've all read enough of Jos's threads to know how full of himself he is"
Am I self-centered prick?
Yes. I'm the first to admit it. I've been known to introduce my self that way, too.
Am I trained, knowledgable, and experienced, in the diagnostics, and repairs of Buells?
Yes.
There are alot of people that know more than I do about alot of things, including Buells. I stand behind what I say, and am willing to prove it, unlike those that post on-the-fly, and without the commitment to add reason to the rhyme.
If you don't like my answers, you're certainly free to ignore them. However, these are public boards, and I post only factual information in the interest of bettering the Buell community, and helping those in need. You take the bad with the good if you choose to take any of it.
Sorry. |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 09:15 am: |
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So Jos51700, I see you can read a dictionary. By the way what dealership do you work at? Denneys in springfield? By the way, the x-1 is still running great. Even though according to you I couldn't reset my AFV baseline, or it wouldn't work. Even though gunther and several others say you can. Remind me why a driveway mechanic can do something an alleged "trained mechanic " said wasn't possible or do any good. |
Id073897
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 11:02 am: |
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Even though gunther and several others say you can
I don't think I agree with your view on AFV.
I don't know about a baseline that would impact fuel calculation. If you change AFV then the ECM will calculate another one, as it does continously (in calibration mode).
Regards,
Gunter |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 11:18 am: |
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o.k. gunther, sorry, i thought ya did.Besides what view would that be. that sometimes it is good to reset the AFV to properly tune the bike? All i did was reset the baseline. I understand it is constantly changing. But the something was out of whack, i reset the baseline AFV and it runs fine.
(Message edited by tom_b on June 16, 2008) |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 11:38 am: |
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"Even though according to you I couldn't reset my AFV baseline, or it wouldn't work"
Please show me where I've said either.
All I've said is that there is no "correct" (Or "Ideal") AFV. |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 01:13 pm: |
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I never said there was an ideal AFV. you said "keep resetting it. You can apologise after you figure this all out" What was that supposed mean then? Once again i never said ideal AVF i said i reset it to the reccomended baseline of 100. You never have said which dealer you worked for the last 10 yrs.
(Message edited by tom_b on June 16, 2008) |
Id073897
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 02:09 pm: |
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i said i reset it to the reccomended baseline of 100
I don't see a essential reason to do this, as long as no changes applied to the engine. And I don't see a reason, why 100 might be a recommend baseline. To give an impression how fast AFV changes take a look at this image:
http://ecmspy.com/download/gunter/AFV.png
Within less than 70 seconds the AFV is way off. The input is alll synthetical just to show the speed of the calculation of a new AFV.
So a freshly set AFV will just hold a few seconds in real life also.
Regards,
Gunter |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 04:57 pm: |
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Under the "running diagnostics" section there is a paragraph titled resetting the AFV. It says " make a note of current value. Select functions tab in ECMSPY. Enter 100% in the AFV box, then hit set AVF. Job Done!" Further down in the tuning section it says "plug in laptop again and check AFV. It says you want a figure between 90 and 110. Ideally as close to 1oo as possible. If you have a low AFV you will be rich in the map within the closed loop area. if you have a high AFV it will run weak in closed loop and the ecm is compensating but could leave you rich in open loop." This is where the information about resetting it to a baseline of 100 came from. |
Jos51700
| | Posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 - 10:51 pm: |
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Tom, I believe it boils down like this:
You said, on the archived page,
Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2008 - 11:55
"I found out the hard way. Not only at tps reset will clear problems, but make sure the afv is set correctly"
To which I replied,
"There is NO such thing.
There are typical values, and atypical values, and it is constantly dynamic when riding."
****************************************
I took this to mean that you are stating that there is either:
A. A correct method of setting the AFV or
B. A correct AFV value
Since I don't really see a third possible interpretation, I replied that (since I know this to be true), There is no such thing as either A or B. Whether ECMSPY instructions say you want "close to 100" or not is irrelevant. No value is preferred with the AFV, as long as it is a typical value for your riding area.
Personally, I think the passage you quote is probably intended for the fuel map tuning section, where one is trying to add/remove fuel from the base maps, and does not really apply to "diagnostics" in the repair sense.
To address your question:
I began working independently on motorcycles (specifically) in 1996, professionally (japbikes) in 1998, and began working for Denney's HD in 2000 (Specializing in Buells), mainly so I could start playing with the new (back then) X1's. No ECMSpy back then meant being in a dealership if you wanted access to FI bikes and computer interface systems. I'd played with the Jap FI stuff but hated the "keep it a secret" philosophy of Japbike design. They can't build the same bike twice, and I hated that they don't refine a bike, they toss it and create a new one with a whole new crop of problems.
I left Denneys for a year in '04 to go back to japbikes (Denneys is not exactly Buell-friendly), hated that, and went to CycleConnection as their Buell specialist in Joplin until last year. Carpal tunnel issues forced my retirement there (and getting married to a woman that lived 90 miles away didn't help), so, I'm back to independant-mechanic status.
Being an independant wrench works well for me now, because the work load is light enough that my hands don't get too irritated. Even the year I took off to go back to Japbikes, there was always a Buell either waiting for me in the Japbike shop, or at home on the lift.
As of now, I don't advertise or claim a storefront. Word-of-mouth and referrals keep me busy (I'm four projects deep at the moment, and in too deep at that) because, believe it or not, I'm actually a nice guy in person (Sorry James, it's true), and won't say no to anyone. As I've explained to others before, I come across as a know-it-all prick on the net because I only comment on the things I know about, and don't have the time to say "I don't know" on the things I don't know about (And there's alot I DON'T know about).
Tom, looking back, I can see why say what you do. In the context of how you typed it, I do feel that it is incorrect. However, I do also feel that had this been a face-to-face interaction, this would not have been an issue, and I apologize for being rude, crass, etc. |
Jstfrfun
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 04:06 pm: |
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OK ladys ...how does all that apply to TPS calibration? Some of you guys need to step around that ego and see the roots of the thread. Tom, you know what helped when you fixed it, no sense arguing with HIMSELF over it. My daddy told me "it's like wrestling with a pig, after awhile you figure out that he likes it"! |
Tom_b
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 06:09 pm: |
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thx David(jstfrfn)! i tried to correct myself about the resetting to the baselnie but it was already blown out of porpotion. The only reason i said maybe reset AFV was after everything else. Including new plugs, checking for trouble codes, TPS reset, airfilter cleaning and new fuel. It was the only thing that made it run right. it started out as just a helpful suggestion. I'm freakin done with this site. i'll tune my own stuff and stick with the manuals. I'm glad i didn't ask for help now, the bike still wouldn't be running. I would have at least thought Gunther knew what i was trying to say since i learned how to do it from a program that he helped write
(Message edited by tom_b on June 17, 2008) |
Jstfrfun
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:17 pm: |
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Yep I feel ya, thats why I suggested you call Al, he's a brainiac with manners. Sometimes he'll go by you in both lanes with the computer speak, but he will back-up and explain with sensitivity. I've met him at Buellton and he and his family are good people as well as fireman Jim and a host of others who I'm happy to call friends( I won't ride with those crazys anymore)and I'll always value there advice. |
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