| Author | Message | ||
     Rsvr10002001 |
I have a few questions about racing buell's. i currently race a 1st gen. sv and am tired of getting passed down the straights by buell's and duc. i am considering selling the sv and getting a buell. 1. how is buell with their contingency program? 2. how reliable is the engine and how often does it need work? 3. what mod are required to make the bike competitive? 4. how hard is it to find aftermarket part's?. 5. how much does the bike weigh in race trim? thanks for the help | ||
| Slaughter |
Boy have you come to the RIGHT PLACE! I raced BOTH a 2001 SV and a Buell XB9 for a season until selling the SV and just sticking with the Buell. I'm at work so am pressed for time (already long on my break this morning) Your racing organization's rules will influence HOW you would setup the bike and you will likely find that it's VERY reliable in racing with some mods to the engine. There are variations from year to year. I am literally in the middle of a complete rebuild after totally wadding up my bike in T8 at Willow springs. I originally built the motor for a 6 hour race and it ran a season and a half - including a podium finish and on tear down, the cylinders are still cherry. The problem is that I tore the cases in the tumbling wreck so bought a salvage bike from a buddy who blew up his motor. I'll post more when I get time. My SV had a GSXR750 front end, Penske rear. Motor de-snorkeled, carbs re-jetted but NO cams, NO high compression. Only ran DOT's - Pirelli - Diablo Corsa front, Diablo rear - that gave me softer compound in the front. Never could get Diablo Corsa to fit the rear. Never ran slicks even though legal in the classes I ran. Stay tuned. Pics from same day at Willow (SV before the GSXR front - I had cartridge emulators and a GSXR rear shock in this pic):   (Message edited by slaughter on June 12, 2008) | ||
| Slaughter |
Awwww - t'hell with it - I'd rather talk racing than do work! (I'll just have to shorten my lunch break) Here's the Buell official announcements on contingency: http://buell.com/en_us/mania/racing/racingsupport. asp I've learned a LOT about the motors, what works for POWER and what will work for reliability, who to talk to about FI maps, who can do good engine work good bottom end work... that sorta stuff. I am going to be out for a couple months til I get everything back - and July we're doing MotoGP at Laguna (bastids at MotoGP scheduled the races the same weekend as our racing at Willow!) I'll answer more of your questions... this day job SUX! - gotta go. (Message edited by slaughter on June 12, 2008) | ||
| Firebolt428 |
Very good questions. I raced my Buell stock for a year 4 years ago and was generally in the top ten racing against modded SV650's. As Slaughter said though it is really up to your race organization as far as what you can and can't do and what classes to run. -I would highly recommend a chain conversion kit. -Race ECU from the factory (only if you have a race license for the programmable) -Motor mods are just like any race bike. The more mods the faster but the less durable. I have ran the 1169cc kit in my XB9R for 3 years and never had problems until these last two years. That points more to inexperience people with this bike and motor than it does to the motor lasting. Take care of it after every race and refreshen at the end of the year and you won't have problems. -I did race a 12R stock motor with micron pipe and chain conversion and it did really well. -After market parts are pretty easy to get a hold of. Every HD dealer will be able to get you parts plus I know there is a bunch of sponsors on here that can get you anything you want. -The bike can be considered a bit of a tank compared to a race ready SV but there is alot of areas where you can put it on a diet to lighten it up a bit. Its not bad though at all. I am really impressed with the contingency program Buell has put together and are a great bunch of people who want to see there stuff do well and are very easy to work with. Good luck Brad www.pushrodracing.com (Message edited by firebolt428 on June 12, 2008) (Message edited by firebolt428 on June 12, 2008) | ||
| Rrrrrrrick |
Buell's contingency program is great, they pay on time too. The reliability depends on how high you rev it, it does not like the rev limiter, do not hit it if you can help it, some people race a whole season on a stock motor. Be sure to take care of it after each race though. An important mod is the chain conversion, the gearing is not adjustable, so you may hit the rev limiter too much, which costs engines, don't ask how i know. Aftermarket parts are not easy to find, especially if you are used to the Japanese bikes, but they are there, Henry Duga should be on speed dial on your phone. bike weighs 415-425 in normal trim. | ||
| Gearhead |
Compared to these guys, I'm a back marker but you can't ask for a better group of folks to be around. The Buell racers I've met since starting in 2006 have been fantastic and very helpful. The fact that you can call, Henry Duga, the head of Buell Racing even if you're not a top runner is pretty cool, he'll give you as much info as you need. | ||
| Rsvr10002001 |
that is pretty cool, but it also concerns me. why would need to call the head of their racing program. i was under the impression it was a reliable bike with no issues. | ||
| Slaughter |
When you're running into issues or have questions, you can ask the Buell Racing staff directly. You need to order race only parts from Buell through your dealer. Very few dealers are used to dealing with Buell Racing so most of us call Buell Racing (Duga) to see if the parts are available and then call the dealer to get them ordered. I NEVER could call Irving P. Suzuki when I had questions. Last week, I was tearing my cases apart, cleaning and sending them out for machining. I was advised by John Dahmer at Darkhorse that putting in the new 2008 crankset would be better (I was going to have the original modified with Timken bearings) - so I called Duga. Yep - he said do it, it's a stronger bottom end built that way - especially if I'm going to be running the rev limit a couple hundred higher than I had already. Since I'm not going to be needing a charging system - I asked about removing the rotor and stator to gain a couple more "free" HP - he said it can gain me a teeny bit of power - so OFF THEY CAME. Couple pounds off the bike, less rotating mass. (yeah, the battery has to go on the charger between every race now) Duga has also been really helpful about keeping the mods to the engine very simple - one other change this rebuild is to go to hydraulics from the Jim's hydrosolids and pushrods. There's just not any need for the hydrosolids with re-done valve springs. Much less (NO) adjustments needed and NO reliability issues. Duga is very helpful - or he'll line you up with the proper staff person at Buell Racing. You're NOT going to get support from your local dealer UNLESS they have a racer on their staff. You cannot get a HD performance guy to help with suspension, braking and engine issues - unless he's working Buells. So... New crankset, pistons already at Darkhorse, cases going out UPS today. Rebuilding plan underway. Heads going back up to NRHS. My bike was running really sweet but when the engine/rear wheel/swingarm got torn out of the chassis, ALL the mounts on the heads were cracked or torn out. I had about 1 1/2 seasons at 4 races a month. Motor held up just fine until I destroyed the bike in a get-off. The inside of the engine really looks like I could have run another season (except shift forks from clutchless shifting, I think) | ||
| Slaughter |
I realized that some of your questions are still unanswered Aftermarket For the XB bikes, there's a HUGE aftermarket in engine and suspension. For the 1125R, it's too new. In Club racing, you might find the XB is elegible to enter more classes than the liquid cooled motor. Most Clubs limit the classes that the 4-valve, liquid cooled, OHC bikes can enter. Modifications Suspension will be the first mods you would need. Forks - usual stuf: re-valving and re-springing. AK-20 gas cartridges - don't bother with Ohlins forks. Shock: Penske or Ohlins. Dual rate damping adjustment. Chain conversion is almost as important as suspension. Slipper Clutch. Causes more maintenance but is on my short list... still thinking. Changing plates is pretty easy. Top end - Valve job, heavier valve springs, some clearancing for the springs to clear the inside of the heads for higher lift cams. Race Engine Control Module. You really do need to go this route - or look into discussions here on ECM Spy. Very similar capabilities. All this assumes you're talking XB/Air-cooled. There's just very little experience in the world with the 1125R yet. Leaving now (day off) to go to Bartels and help with Higbee's 1125R for racing this weekend. Still learning that beastie. Gotta run | ||
| Rsvr10002001 |
thanks for the help | ||
| Trojan |
I don't want to be the one who pisses on the parade, but there are drawbacks to racing the XB (I know, because I've done it for long enough too  ) 1. You have to pick your class very carefully if you are considering running a stock XB9 or 12 and expecting to get results, as it gets mullered in a straight line by anything over 600cc (including SV5650's!). Running a pushrod air cooled twin against modern bikes is often like being the one legged man at an arse kicking contest, so you need to be pretty keen on Buells to do it. Once you start having to spend money on modifying an XB just to keep up with stock bikes then you may be better off looking at what is winning the class first and buy one of those instead. 2. Don't think of running an XB if you are not into doing some maintenance. You can run an SV650 or most Jap 4 cylinder bikes all year with just petrol, oil and tyres. Race XB's tend to need more work to keep them competitive, and if you are tuning then the maintenance gets more frequent and more expensive. We spent around US$40,000 running a tuned XB12 in 2006, but were still beaten by mildly tuned big bore SV700's that had cost half as much at least. We had a great rider, top tyres, a fantastic bike and a lot of trick parts, but the bike was still not as quick in a straight line as the opposition. handling was far better than everyone else, and we made up yards on the (Yamaha) brakes, but that counts for little when they breeze past on the straights. 3. Racing an XB can be a lonely business, and you may be the only rider at a meeting riding a Buell. As a novice it makes sense to try and garner information from everyone you come into contact with in the race paddock, and there will be far more people with experience racing Suzuki/Yamaha/Honda etc than there will with Buell race setup experience. 4. If you need spares then make sure you take everything you are likely to need with you. It is unlikely that trackside vendors will carry Buell parts, but parts for Jap bikes will be readily accessible either from vendors or by scrounging from other racers. At the end of the day, if you just want a bike to go out and do a few novice races on, then racing whatever you have in your garage makes financial sense. If you are looking to go racing seriously then it makes sense to do some homework on the class you are looking to race in. A stock or mildly modified XB may fit the criteria you set, but it may be better to look for a more suitable bike to start with. There is a far wider choice of suitable used and competitive race machinery available outside of the Buell marque, most very keenly priced, and they may suit your aspirations better. Just my 10c worth of course  | ||
| Benm2 |
These are less true in the US if you stick with the CCS series. The CCS Thunderbike class will have plenty of Buell's in it. | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Wouldnt that be 10 pence? | ||
| Trojan |
Wouldnt that be 10 pence? The way things are going I'm not sure if it should be 10 pence or cents (Euros), so I just make up my own currency Maybe I should have prefeced the above post: I have raced Buells since 2003, won championships,races and had a whale of a time doing it. I enjoyed it as much for the fact that we were the only people racing one as for the success, but you have to be a dyed in the wool Buell fanatic (like us) to want to race one in the first place I suppose. If you are just after the race exerience and have no brand loyalty or particular reason to race a Buell specifically, then there are much easier and cheaper ways to do it Whichever way you decide there is always one maxim: 'If you want to make a small fortune in racing, start with a large one'. | ||
| Rsvr10002001 |
i have been racing for 3 years now and have my expert license. if i place in the top ten in asra and i shouldn't have a problem doing that i can bring in a little money not just the usual sponsor contingency money. but if i have to keep pulling the motor apart for mods i should just keep my sv that already is race ready and get a superbike motor built. f | ||
| Anonymous |
You do not have to pull the motor apart for mods; the most successful Buell racers run stock motors, pay attention to not over-revving, and collect contingency money. The folks who tinker and modify have the most issues. There are a number of Buell racers who switched from SV-650's and found cheaper and significantly more profitable. If you can't race in a series where the rules are formula based and Buell has contingency money, then there may be better choices. For ASRA, CCS, WSMC, OMRRA and many other associations, racing a Buell is a very good idea. | ||
| Rsvr10002001 |
do you think a xb9r with a exhaust, air filter and race emc keep up or be faster then a sv superbike? | ||
| Diablobrian |
We raced an SV650s and switched to an XB. In ASRA a good rider on an XB12 with 9 pistons (to raise compression) will be very competitive, and have very little reason to do anything to the motor other than minor tuning tweaks through the Kimball or ECMspy software. The Buell crowd at the track are almost like family (at least off the track ) and parts issues are very easily resolved. Between the stuff the other racers carry and the things Henry conjures up out of his van Except for major crashes that damage the rider beyond repair or break the frame or grenade the motor completely, I can't remember a rider on a Buell not making the grid due to a lack of parts. In fact it's not uncommon to see members of several teams swarming one bike to get it ready in time for the next race, or practice session. As has been said before, when we raced the SV we were ALONE in the pits, the sense of comraderie was not there and we certainly didn't have a rep from suzuki visiting our pits making sure things were going well, and making recommendations on what we should do to get more out of the bike. Did I mention that Henry Duga Rocks? If you are running well on the SV then you are already aware of how the XB runs against you. Don't be afraid to talk to the guys in the pits about what they are running. If you are really dedicated and work at it you can get the XB down to around 400lbs IF you remove the starter, run total loss, strip out all of the extra wiring etc. In the formula classes that puts your hp at around 100 which is attainable with the 9 pistons, open intake, race exhaust, and true race ECM/ECMspy. I have not really seen the SVs running away from the Buells anywhere on the track, Even at daytona where if they did have that much of an advantage the Buells would be wasting their time showing up. That's not the case. Some talented riders on SVs can and do run in the top 10, but the Buells are the bikes to beat in the mid-west Light weight classes and thunderbike. | ||
| Rsvr10002001 |
so it is better to get a xb12r and change the pistons, rather the getting a xb9r? what year do you recommend? how much is a chain conversion, and piston swap? | ||
| Diablobrian |
What classes in what organization? That dictates what you need to run motor wise. | ||
| Gijoe |
I have been reading this whole thing when it started, and I agree to everything. I race an xb12r in CRA up here in Minnesota and I have a blast,Im the only buell racer up here as of last year,(I think theres a new guy, not sure) but being the only one it is lonely like that gentlemen said,The one thing I will say as said before is also is that Henry Duga is the man. You do need to have him on speed dial and having access to this web site is very benifical to racing a buell. Good luck in your venture and injoy. | ||
| Slaughter |
I think that you might look into an older XB12 and put a newer (2008) crank into her. It's a bit beefier. My personal preference however is still the shorter stroke (XB9) motor bored out to 3 13/16 inch. It's a much quicker revving motor and tolerant of continuous higher RPMs. I THINK (too lazy to do the research) - that you can buy XB9 motors much cheaper than the XB12 since most folks seem to want the longer stroke motors. Check your race organizations. Most limit displacement to 1200cc and TECHNICALLY the XB12 at 1203cc COULD be protested but the two protests that I am familiar with in Club racing were thrown out by referees as being ridiculous since the XB12s were being "protested" by Ducati 749 novice racer weenies who were "protecting their investment" Check around on used bike boards. You can get an XB9 with busted motor for less than $2000 now. With about $2000 in parts, you can have a fast-revving, 90+ HP, very reliable racer. Assume you're going to be doing your own wrenching. There are more things that can be done to get some power without buggering reliability Gotta run, it's almost 0630 on race morning. No proofreading - I'm outta here hope this makes a little sense. I tend to be confusing when writing in a hurry | ||
| Buellsrule |
Does anyone have Duga's number handy? Thanks, BR. | ||
| Diablobrian |
written to break it up in case of "bots" area code 262 pre-fix 642 suffix 2020 or: area code 262 pre-fix 642 suffix 2986 extension 336 also available at: henry dot duga at buell dot com | ||
| Jammin_joules |
Resrv10002001, We will be gaining some valuable new experience on Pikes Peak Hill CLimb. We've been on the mountain already and feel we have a dialed-in bike; motor, suspension, chassis. Our parts guy used to sell to Buell racers in Florida so this will add to our knowledge base. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/158 664/368556.html?1213640552 ~jammer | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Well, It appears I have been bitten by the track bug. My plan is to find a 9r or 12r as a track bike, get my race license and see where it goes from there. IF (big IF) I get to the point of being competive, I have some options that may become available. | ||
| Josh_ |
So how dumb would I be to start club racing my ride-to-work 1125R? What do you mean "take care of it after every race"? fluid change? How many races on a stock bike (1125R) before a motor rebuild? (I'm not hard on my equipt, honest!) |
