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Nevrenuf
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 07:15 pm: | 
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thanks mike and chris. i really wanted to say something earlier but i just bit my tung knowing someone else would come along and say what i was thinking.
and maybe one of you can verify this for me, but i've never seen anykind of a race/walk being escorted by the police in front of the pact. they usually stay in the back so people won't come running up on them. once again i could be wrong. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:17 pm: |
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"Wow, where do I start. Cudajohn, those are completely ignorant statements. Bicycles are never allowed to operate on highways. "
ummm...
Bicycles are allowed to operate on highways in my state- many highways here feature them, same's true in California.
what do 'ignorant statement' and 'hypocrisy' mean? |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:18 pm: |
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"and maybe one of you can verify this for me, but i've never seen anykind of a race/walk being escorted by the police in front of the pact. they usually stay in the back so people won't come running up on them. once again i could be wrong."
isn't that what the cop was doing in this case? following them, and yet they got hit from behind.... |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:20 pm: |
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"Cudajohn I would like to respond to some of your idiotic statements: "
Oh, yeah- a really open-mined introduction if ever I've seen one.
vitriol uber alles, i guess... |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:21 pm: |
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"I am constantly amazed at the ignorance of humanity."
Fascinating things, those mirrors.... |
Nevrenuf
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 08:36 pm: |
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look at it closer tramp, they got hit from the front. look at the direction the guy along side of the rode is facing. looks like he pulled over quick enough to avoid getting hit. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 09:10 pm: |
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I looked, and i read the copy...it's tough to figure out.
the copy says they were hit from behind, and
note the side of the road they're on (see the road sign facing?)...it doesn't add up.... |
Iamike
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 09:11 pm: |
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As a past bicycle racer we did have police escort at both the front and the back of some races, but not all. I also got to carry an official once and a photographer once with my motorcycle on a big race in Des Moines. It's pretty exciting to be going downhill on a motorcycle with dozens of bicycles enveloping around you while trying to get that perfect shot.
I understand how some motorists feel about bicycles but if I'm not holding up traffic, like out in the boonies, then why should they act like I am? It is selfishness on the part of the motorist, especially when I'm riding to work. Many motorists don't show any example of safety when they buzz by without moving over. Look at all the move over laws that have been passed to protect police and road workers. It is because people feel insulated in their iron coccoons.
Just because you think that you should act like a joe racer on the highway doesn't give you the right to endanger someone else that's out there. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2008 - 09:13 pm: |
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No doubt about it- motorists can be asswipes when it comes to bicyclists. |
Bartimus
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 12:23 am: |
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I thought only "licensed" vehicles were allowed on the road? |
Cudajohn
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 12:54 am: |
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I would like to respond to Dobr's statements to me.
"If your above statement is true then you were traveling at an unsafe speed for the road and failed to control your motorcycle, your fault, not the cyclists. Perhaps you should attend a MSF class. I hear they can be quite educational with respect to learning to ride a motorcycle.
"It is tragic that this stuff happens but in my opinion it's like your participating in the Running of the Bulls. You might get poked!"
I hope that if you are hit by a drunk driver who is on the wrong side of the road your family has the same attitude about your risks while riding a motorcycle. Go get em Pokey! "
I wasn't on a motorcycle, a car actually. Since you think it may be untrue "If your above statement is true then ..."
I was on Highway 9 in Oklahoma, I can tell you the year was 1999. The group must have been at least four wide numbering about six - eight riders. The roadway is 65 mph and has many turns, some big some tight where the speed limit is reduced to 45. This was a bigger curve. No shoulder at an incline. I had about the same reaction time as one would have on any road with curves would have if there were a pile of boulders or a dairy cow standing in the roadway.
I remember this very well because it was so dangerous for them to be doing this and imposed a risk on me.
Now, you assume alot of things, I'm 28 so I'm a dangerous driver, I was on a motorcycle, the fact that I made the Running of the Bulls statement in regards to the Mexican event. So do you know what it makes you look like when you ASSume???
I think you ASSumed that I think bicyclist should have no rights to be on the road, at all. That is untrue. The rides such as the Des Moines ride every year, the races, the rides that Lance Armstrong does in Texas are great. They also get permits and are required to have some sort of escort whether Police or marked vehicles. The one in Mexico was all legit as well and some moronic driver ruined alot of lives that day.
In the way of "rights". I don't think a "group" or club has the right to trek down any highway without a shoulder, a certain speed limit or higher, without a trail vehicle....... I see these bonehead things all the time. I remember them well because let's face it, we don't remember the guy who let you in when the traffic was merging or the person that politely moved over to the slow lane because you were going faster. You remember the idiots.
I want to make it clear to anyone reading that I think the Mexican incident is most unfortunate as loss of life is. I do not act maliciously toward bicyclist. I just don't want to see more hazards on the roads. Bike shoulders and lanes are great, escorts are great, a "group" or "club" that wants to just get together on any public road at any given time and ride without any safety precautions is a hazard! What if it was the Dragon, same circumstances? would you agree bicyclists have an undeniable right to travel that road two abreast at any given time, any day, without safety vehicle escorts?
I am not campaigning for no bikes on the road so don't get your panties in a bunch Dobr! |
Mr_gto
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 01:21 am: |
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Bicycles are on the dragon all the time. I havent hit one yet. |
Cudajohn
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 01:47 am: |
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.... If it is a big group or "club" riding four wide, I don't think it is very responsible bicycling. |
Mr_gto
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 03:53 am: |
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Hell, big motorcycle/car clubs that ride thru the dragon get in my way! |
Irideabuell
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 07:28 am: |
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Unfortunately most of the comments above regarding bicycles on a public road are moot in this instance in my opinion. This was apparently an escorted event of some sort and the control wasn't what it should have been.
I think anyone who uses a public roadway regardless of the mode of transportation is guilty at some point or another of doing something stupid.
However, I do see too many bicycles quite often running lights and stop signs, etc., so some measure of disdain for them is warranted. |
Buellfighter
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 08:24 am: |
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Owned and operated a bicycle shop for ten years and in that time not once did I or any of my customers (that I'm aware of) have an accident involving a motor vehicle. They have been here long before the internal combustion engine and they will be here long after its demise.
Bikes are here to stay...on the roads.
The cop in the photo above was obviously working "special event overtime" and did not want to have to stay late because of being involved in a vehicle to vehicle accident hence avoiding it entirely.
PROTECT AND SERVE.....my own ass!!! |
Nevrenuf
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 08:52 am: |
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i still think the cop saw what was happening in front of him and swerved to avoid taking a chance running over any of the bikers |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 09:45 am: |
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read the article again,and look at the 'before' photo Nevrenuf:
the cop was following the pack
} |
Iamike
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 10:09 am: |
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I always laugh when someone posts a picture and there is a big argument over supposition of the details. Without video it's hard to tell exactly what happened.
In the races that I was involved with, the police usually didn't change their position, whether leading or following, during the race. But on my cycle, with the photog or official, we were all over the place.
Before we state that "bicycles shouldn't be on the road" we need to realize that unless it is a 'limited access' road, federal law mandates that they be allowed. Also there are a lot of motorists don't think that motorcycles should be allowed either, and that it is our actions that determine how the general public perceives us. It does gripe me when bicycles abuse the access law to block traffic. I never understand why a bicyclist on a 20# vehicle thinks that he has any chance tangling with a 3,000# one.
I don't have a problem with speeding, passing on the yellow line, stunting, etc. as long as it is done with minimal impact on others. I have seen many motorcycists do some really dumb things on rides that makes me cringe when I thonk how that reflects on all motorcycles. |
Greenlantern
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 10:11 am: |
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the cop was following the pack
As they( the police ) do at most of these events. The bicyclists usually lead as they set the pace of the ride, the escort following the lead element. Photos often have the effect of "freezing time" which suggests to most observers that there was more time than actually existed for some defensive action to have be taken. Imo a drunk , coked out driver moving at a good clip and swerving into oncoming traffic at the last moment left no time for anybody to react whatsoever. That is my take on the photos anyway. |
Ratbuell
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 11:17 am: |
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Judging from the height (i.e. trajectory) of many of the bikes and cyclists in the picture, the guy in the Crown Vic was moving at a pretty good clip. The cop did no wrong from where I sit - why risk sandwiching, or hitting *again* - one of the cyclists? And since he was behind the pack, how was he supposed to "throw himself on the grenade", so to speak? S**t happens quick in situations like this. My feelings go out to the families of those involved, and a tip of the hat to the officer for not compounding a situation. He may not have been able to make it any better, but at least he didn't make it any worse. |
Seanp
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 12:20 pm: |
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The cop was following the pack, and if he hadn't swerved, he'd have sandwiched the cyclists between his car and the oncoming car. What about that is difficult to see in the photo?
What could the cop have done better, ridden in the front of the pack? Then they might have gotten hit from behind. The chances of getting hit by a car coming across the lane are less than the chances of getting hit by a car traveling too fast in their own lane. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 12:26 pm: |
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Sean- look again at the photo...and read the copy- (these are all we have to go on)the car hit them from behind.
the cop's JOB was to protect them.
If, in fact, they were hit from behind, and IF, again, the cop (as seen in the before shot) was following them, then he failed, in a successful attempt to save his own skin.
If you've ever been hassled by a mexican cop, this shouldn't surprise you in the least. |
Nevrenuf
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 12:26 pm: |
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i've gone through just about every article that i can find to see if there's been an update to what actually happened, but nothing concrete. one thing mentioned the guy swerved when the cop car tried to intervene. |
Seanp
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 01:55 pm: |
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The only story I read that said the cyclists were hit from behind is the cyclingnews story, which also says it was a family fun ride, not a race. So they may have had a different source for their story.
If you look at the guy on the left side of the picture, he's coming toward the camera. That would imply the cyclists were coming toward the camera. The cop is facing the camera, in the opposite lane. If he was behind the pack, he swerved to avoid the sandwich. If he was in front of the pack he swerved to avoid being hit himself. I'm inclined to think that, judging by the other non-accident photo, plus common sense, the cop was behind the pack.
Oh well. IA-Mike is right. We just can't tell from a photo. Even video doesn't always tell the true story. Something about "Back, and to the left..." comes to mind... |
Greenlantern
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 02:05 pm: |
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Sean- look again at the photo...and read the copy- (these are all we have to go on)the car hit them from behind.
Tramp- I think the copy is in error regarding the bikers being hit from behind as everything in the photo points to the opposite. Can't find any copy substantiating either scenario unfortunately but will keep digging. |
Greenlantern
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 02:16 pm: |
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There is another photo (before the accident ) that shows the Police car in motion trailing the lead pack. Of course I can't find it now that it would be useful.... stand bye. |
Greenlantern
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 02:21 pm: |
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Got it...
And if I had looked back in this thread I would have seen this was already posted!
(Ass-hat)
(Message edited by greenlantern on June 06, 2008) |
Miamiuly
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 02:28 pm: |
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Finally found this on youtube, a little humor that is pertinent to some of the discussion.
May be a modern redo of a classic 1950. Only finding what looks like the original in other languages
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu0UeQ9RKIQ
(Message edited by miamiuly on June 06, 2008)
(Message edited by miamiuly on June 06, 2008) |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2008 - 06:05 pm: |
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yep- Now, looking at the 'big pic', i get the impression (regardless of the staory posted) that they were, indeed, hit from the front, and the cop swerved to get away from the head which would have, arguably, only increased fatalities. |
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