| Author | Message | ||
     Alans |
Following is the text of a letter I'm going to provide to my dealer tomorrow, about "hard starting". Frankly, my personal opinion is that the "hard starting" I describe is related to temperature. But I have nothing but coincidence at this point to confirm that suspicion. I have included the 'bubbling fuel' reference and the 'fuel smell' reference because each time these things occur, the bike is difficult to start. I really don't know if they're germane to this issue, or not. But I felt I should mention them, if for no other reason than that the trouble-shooting process can consider them, and rule them out as symptoms of an underlying cause. What's the consensus...will this tack do me any good? Would you suggest I word things differently? Any pointers to follow to increase my chances of getting the dealer to listen to me, and to act? From: Alan To: AVHD Subject:2008 Buell 1125R I have a problem with hard starting on days when the ambient temperature is approximately 85*F or greater, and the bike has been ridden for any distance. Normally, the bike will start after the starter has operated for a second, or so. Under the conditions mentioned in the first paragraph, it requires 10 to 20 seconds, sometimes more, of the starter turning the engine before the engine will fire. And even then, it will ‘just’ start. There is a pronounced difference in the starting characteristics of the engine on a cooler day, e.g. 75*F, versus on a day that’s 85*F when the bike has been ridden a few miles. This is what leads me to believe there is some type of anomaly with the motorcycle, causing the difficulty in starting the engine. I have noted, when the engine is hot and is difficult to start under the conditions stated, that there is the distinct smell of gasoline in the vicinity of the bike. This smell appears to be emanating from the bike. Subsequently, when I release the gas cap, I must do so gingerly so as to vent the pressure. This venting continues for 20 to 30 seconds until the pressure in the tank is equal to the ambient pressure. Shortly after I purchased the bike several months ago, I experienced one episode during which hot fuel sprayed out of the tank when I removed the gas cap, under conditions similar to those I’ve described, i.e. 85*F+, with the bike having been ridden for a time. That instance of fuel spray occurred at your dealership, and was witnessed by several of your technicians, and the former Service Manager. Ultimately, I was told that I’d overfilled the fuel tank, fuel had plugged the charcoal canister, and the result was the pressure in the tank had gone way up. I had in fact put all the fuel in it that it would hold just before heading to the dealership (to pick up my plates), so I can see how I could have plugged up the canister as a result. In the latest episode, there was less than ½ tank of fuel. I don’t believe the canister was plugged in this instance. I also noted in this latest episode, after venting the pressure and removing the fuel cap, I could hear a distinct ‘bubbling’ sound coming from within the fuel tank. It was a steady sound. It reminded me very much of the sound of liquid boiling in a saucepan. I listened for a good minute, while the sound continued, before I replaced the fuel cap. I would like a determination as to why my motorcycle is so difficult to start under the conditions described, and would like to have the problem corrected. Since I live in the desert, I expect to be riding the bike on many more warm days with high ambient temperatures, and I would like to be able to start the bike reliably, e.g. after stopping for fuel, or at the store, etc. Best Regards, | ||
| Chevycummins |
Looks good. Hope you have better luck than I did. I guess at least there will be one more noted to Buell with the same problems that some of us have had. | ||
| Slypiranna |
Your questions, as an owner with a warranty and concerns, read more than polite and factual, in my opinion. Please post your experience after the fact. | ||
| Alans |
Chevycummins, what was your problem, and the dealer response? | ||
| Alans |
Slypirranna, what do you mean by 'more than polite and factual'? | ||
| Alans |
I will definitely post my results. I think the only way we're going to get our bikes fixed is for a number of us to approach the dealers with resolve, providing factual information. I think it's going to take more than one or two of us to get this done. (Message edited by alans on May 15, 2008) | ||
| Chevycummins |
Alans, my problem was with the hot boiling gas, raw fuel smell and I actually had gas dripping on the muffler in cold climate rides. It was at the dealer for 14 days, I made many calls to Buell about the problem and after all that time they told me it was normal. At least your bike should not drip gas on the muffler because it sounds like your bike is a Cali emissions bike so it is a little different than my bike. Anyways there is a lot more to my story than that but that is just one part of it. I hope if there are more complaints Buell will address the problems. | ||
| Slypiranna |
I mean it sounds like a letter that I would give credibility to...if it was handed to me from a customer service standpoint/techs point of view in reading. What you wrote is GOOD to pass along to any responsible party. A lot of folks would have written this letter in a negative manner, which doesn't get very far. Yours, however, will. Best of luck and please post your experience. | ||
| Anonymous |
alans, have you had your recalibration and have you tried the "flooded clearing function" when this occurs? In case you didn't know you hold the throttle wide open then turn the key on and the spark plugs will fire for 4 secs to clear a flood or possible can work with lightly fouled plugs. You may have to do this a few times before the system clears. Hope this is helpful. | ||
| Alans |
Anonymous, I know the procedure, but didn't realize 'flooded' might be the issue. The context was the bike started normally at work, one key-twist. I rode home. The bike sat a few minutes. I tried to start it, to see if I could. It exhibited the hard starting behavior. I'll try the flooded-engine procedure next time to see if it shortens the cranking cycle. It would be useful if I'm stuck somewhere, and the bike is hard to start. Even if the flooded engine procedure facilitates starting, there is still an issue in my eyes as it seems abnormal to me that the bike would flood just sitting there. I own three other bikes, and none of them flood after the same ride, after sitting for a few minutes. That's my yardstick. I learned early on to NOT twist the throttle on the 1125R when I'm trying to get it started. If it's flooded, it was due to nothing untoward I did. I am looking forward to getting the recalibration done tomorrow, when I go to the dealer. Perhaps there's something in there to address this issue... Thanks for your insights. | ||
| Alans |
I just returned from the dealer. I had the reflash done. Also, Unibear12r and I chatted with the GM a good 30 minutes, discussing our concerns about service and other issues related to the 1125R. I provided the GM my note (see above). About our issues, there was consensus that some are the dealer's responsibility to resolve, and some perhaps not. One of our issues was we felt someone on the tech staff needed to be trained on the 1125R. The GM went online as we were chatting, and attempted to enroll one of his qualified technicians in the 1125R course. Unfortunately, nothing was offered, i.e. he was able to click a button that said something to the effect that "I am interested in this course." He explained that ordinarily, he would have the ability to plug someone into a course online. But that option is not presently available to him. He was genuinely perplexed that there was no indication that an 1125R course actually exists, especially when I told him that other dealers had in fact obtained 1125R training for their techs. He promised to pursue the issue further. We all agreed that there will perhaps be issues that are not dealer-centric, but that the dealership would need to perform as owner 'advocate', and interface with Buell to get the issue addressed and resolved. In this context, I would like to suggest to anyone who is suffering issues with their 1125R to not simply address the issues themselves, but document them, and report them to your dealer. Then, follow up, and in cases where it seems to not be a dealer issue, to ensure the dealer has received a response from the manufacturer. You will probably have to invest some time in this, but I believe the payback will be worth it. The GM explained to us that he can certainly take our case forward. But it would be very helpful, and provide a better argument to the manufacturer if similar reports are arriving from all quarters, i.e. to illustrate that ours are not isolated cases. It's a warm day here. 90*F. When I returned from the dealer, I let the bike sit in the garage 2 minutes, and could smell fuel, faintly, near the bike. I carefully lifted the fuel cap. Only slight pressure. I could hear the bubbling in an almost full tank, i.e. probably around 4 gallons. Sure enough, these events accompanied the hard-starting event, i.e. the bike was not going to fire up easily, turning vigorously, but with no particular inclination to fire. I performed the flooded-engine procedure--with a difference, and it started right up. The difference was that I had to hold the throttle full open for the procedure to take. If I left the throttle at the idle stop, the bike behaved as before, i.e. cranking, with no firing. I thank Anonymous again for the suggestion. I feel better about not being stranded somewhere while I wait for the bike to cool down. But once again, I view this as a work-around, something I can do to overcome a shortcoming with the machine. It's that shortcoming that I would like to see resolved, for myself, and for others who are experiencing it. (Message edited by alans on May 17, 2008) | ||
| Anonymous |
alans I was thinking about your problem and came up with this: Your bike has a vent hose with a valve in-line. Your bike should not have pressure build up in the tank. on the other hand is it possible that the hiss you hear could be not pressure but air rushing in to equalize the tank? If a vacuum or negative pressure occurs in the tank you could develop vapor lock and the fuel pump would not be able to overcome this and lose fuel pressure delivery to your injectors causing your hard start. It' also possible you could have a leaky injector that allows fuel into your cylinder causing a rich condition as the 1125r fuel pump may continue to run for 40-50 secs after shutdown to maintain line pressure ready for next startup. Let me know your findings. | ||
| Slypiranna |
I disagree with the negative pressure theory. If in fact Alan hears what he has referred to as a "boiling" event, after opening the fuel fill cap and still continuing thereafter...I'd have to lean towards a positive pressure condition within the cell. Still could be a bad vent, inj, ect but a negative pressure just doesn't add up with what this owner has given as his findings/descrips thus far. | ||
| Slypiranna |
If in fact...boiling is occurring within the fuel cell then it is therefor possibly boiling within the at least the rear cylinder's injector fuel feed line. Such a possibility will possibly overcome that injector's seat sealing abilities and will leak somewhat past it... Causing...an over rich, hard restart condition as described. If the clear flood method relights the engine...which it has now been known to, on this bike, then again, I lean towards a positive pressure event. | ||
| Slypiranna |
And finally, thank you, Alans for your post experience reply. At the risk of getting blasted, I feel that this should be voiced. For THIS customer, that purchased THIS bike and have presented himself in such a POSITIVE MODEL way...only to handled and recommended in such...is nothing short of embarrassing. No dealer, selling and or warranting this model should be ill equipped or lack of understanding of this product line by now. If this is the case...then some owners might need to be hired on by Buell/HD! From what has been posted herein is unacceptable from a customer relations standpoint. I won't go into further detail as to why as it should be obvious to all out there. A service manual should be the most paramount right now...or at the very least, give current owners ACCESS TO WHAT HD TECHS/DEALERSHIPS HAVE AS CURRENT Information! IF in fact the reason the service manual is still being written than that only leads to one thing in my opinion,,,,,,still haven't got it right enough to post. Get it right and yesterday...educate your dealerships and techs NOW...AND come off some of your secret information in this process so that we ALL can work together in making this a perfected model before 09 models hit. Enuff is enuff... And enuff said. | ||
| Doerman |
Mine, like yours and Glen's, is a CA bike so the charcoal cannister and and tank venting system is the same on all three. I just got back from a ride where the ambient (according to weather.com) was 97F. During my ride the bike AT would fluctuate between 100F and 133F. The CT would fluctuate between 195 and 214F averaging around 204. I stopped once on the ride to get drinking water. No hard starting and/or gas smell. When I got home, no boiling or smells. Here's what has been done by the dealer that may relate: - replaced the O2 sensor - reflash This is what I've done that may relate: - "cool taped" the frame area closest to the rear header I had boiling/tank overpressure prior to getting the O2 sensor replaced (replaced at 1800 miles - I have 6K miles now). I don't know if there is a relation in general, but in my case there was (to the O2 sensor). Here's another thing that I will throw out there. I think it is easy to mess up fuel lines, fuel rail when you take off the airboox base plate. I'm not accusing anyone (dealer or owner) of messing things up, but just another thing to take a look at. It's a mystery isn't it...  | ||
| Anonymous |
Gotta look at all possibilities. I don't have the bike in front of me and I am not real good at talking someone through diagnostics, something I gotta work on. The fuel line wouldn't just affect one injector as the fuel line feeds both equally through a 'T' at the fuel pressure sensor. The injector at fault would have to be identified. You can do this by opening the throttle plates and cycling the key 5 times and watching for any wet surfaces in the intake track (fuel). Wait until the fuel pump shuts off. | ||
| Anonymous |
slyp I feel your pain. As a Buell tech I have no more info than this web site, just my own thoughts and observations. What HD/Buell does is put out a production model and writes the service manuals from there. They get input from test sites and from US, the techs in the field to make a more productive and informative manual. You can't put the cart before the horse. Evaluate what you have and then illustrate how to fix it based on problems found, not on speculation. No one can for see all aspects of diagnostics until problems or occurrences can be observed to write the manuals to provide efficient procedures to service personnel and customers to effect an efficient repair the first time. Not all companies, (auto or otherwise) do this which causes them to rewrite their manuals because other problems are found that are not addressed. I for one would like to have the manuals before hand but think this way gives a more accurate and efficient way to correct concerns so the customer can have a safe and enjoyable product. I feel that BMC is doing this for the better. Do you really want hurried information that could lead you down the wrong path? I don't. | ||
| Anonymous |
alans, by the way, I as dealer staff would be very happy to get a customer like you who gives me detailed information about your concerns. I wish all customers would be this specific. It would make my job easier. Thank you. | ||
| Slypiranna |
I appreciate your inputs Any... But, a pilot doesn't go flying without a flight plan. No tech should speak the gospel or wrench on a warranty machine without proper insight, training and or experience and mechanical knowledge of said product in question...maybe my wife could adjust my 11's valves if once watching the dvd service bulletin concerning this procedure... And while way off here...even the apollo mission didn't leave mother earth without a manual to go by....even with all the drama, they needed it all the way... How many decades are we now relating to in technology and common business sense? Bottom line, the customer should not be the test example for the design engineers to steer by. That is not the customers job, it is the manufactures and its related communications to a customer via a dealership and customer service network that has the understanding of this concept + credible knowledge of that product. Research and Development should have covered most of the basics for a data base prior to release. Nor should the selling/warranty dealerships be so polite in recommending that a customer seek other than said dealers own resolve. I won't post anything more concerning this thread. I feel that this just needed to be brought up for whomever might use it in a positive way regarding all involved, including Buell/HD and the end users. My apologies for any that I might have offended. I assure those of you, that was not my intention. Best regards, Montgomery Markel | ||
| Brad1445 |
wow, people with no names are by far much more caring then people with names that you can reference.  | ||
| Anonymous |
A pilot has a predetermined flight plan with a plane that has been tried by many others before him. You probably will not read about the initial problems. Techs are not gospel. Any wrench that says they know it all is a fake. I repeatedly refer to manuals, BMC, and other techs to find the answer I'm looking for. I DON'T GIVE INFO I AM UNSURE OF. It's a learning process. Join us on the solution so there is no problem. Nobody has ALL the answers and BMC has done countless hours of research with VERY INTELLIGENT ENGINEERS. Not all issues can be discovered in all situations. BMC is here to stay and I find is EXTREMELY helpful in correcting any flaws once presented. We're only human and make mistakes. Help us, not hurt us. | ||
| Anonymous |
Also slyp, who has been to space before apollo? Who knew what lied in wait for them? NASA had only probabilities and made the manuals based on that. It's new territory, we have to explore. I'm sorry, but we all need to come together to make what we enjoy, BETTER. I will give any info at my access without compromising proprietary info to whomever asks. I WANT TO HELP! | ||
| Alans |
For the record, I have not disassembled anything on the bike, nor modified its mechanicals in any way. I did perform the 620 Mile service myself, changing oil, filter, and inspecting the rest. I don't believe this action precipitated any of the symptoms I've described, as the issues were present before I performed the service. The next time the pressure issue arises, I'll check to see if it's inflow or outflow. I noted condensation precipitating on the rim of the fuel bung, adjacent to the fuel cap, the last time I vented the cap. I wiped my finger in this condensate and sniffed it. Definitely fuel. I thought this indicated the flow was from within the tank. But maybe not. I'll see if I can't determine the direction of flow definitively if/when the issue occurs again. Frankly, the 'boiling' could in fact be 'bubbling'. The difference being the former caused by temperature, and the latter by some mechanical event related to the fuel. I recall seeing another thread that mentioned this possibility. I could not rule out that's it's bubbling. I worked hands-on on some fairly technical hardware in a past life. You all believe in reincarnation, don't you? In any case, I worked on equipment where I had no manual, and no training, and I worked on equipment for which there was adequate documentation, after receiving factory training, and I worked with various stages of documentation/training in between. My recollection is that my work was confident, efficient, and correct-the-first-time in positive correlation to the level of documentation, and the extent of factory training I'd received prior to the fact. Frankly, I enjoyed the times I had no docs, and no training. For me, it was an ego-rush when I fixed something under those circumstances, using my experience, and theory to synthesize guidelines which had not been provided. But do I want someone working on my bike under the same circumstances? Not when I recall the failures I had on my way to those qualified successes. Extrapolating my experience in this regard to that of the Buell technicians' who will be working on my bike, I have a real concern about the scenario of no factory training. Evidently, there is a manual, now, in draft. I would like to suggest again that anyone who is experiencing issues with their 1125R, take the issue to the dealer. It is my opinion that to do otherwise will only serve to extend the period of time between now, and when the issue is properly resolved. In this context, 'proper resolution' would be a factory, or dealer effected measure. With that said, there are reports--such as Doerman's, above--in which wrapping headers, and/or shielding the frame/tank, i.e. limiting engine bay temperatures, have reportedly lead to a cessation of the 'boiling' and 'fume', issues. This might show some promise. Am I going to go out and buy heat-wrap and perform the same procedure. I won't. Or perhaps I should say, only as a last resort. Only if my dealer, and/or the manufacturer of my bike do not address my concerns. There is the definite possibility that my issue is in fact isolated. I don't have the oversight to be aware of all the data in regards to the issue, so I don't know if this is endemic to all 1125Rs operated in warm climes, or if it is something peculiar to my particular bike, and a few others. And that's why I need to get the dealer and by extension the manufacturer involved. They should be the watershed for complaints and issues related to the bike. It doesn't hurt to address issues oneself. But one should also add to the community, and report the problem in a formal manner so that it can be counted. Part of this is to follow-up on the issue, because dealer personnel are human, and if something more pressing comes along, the complaint of an owner that was provided in passing is liable to be shuffled to the bottom of the 'to do' list. Write your issues down, and provide them to the Service Manager at your dealer, and/or the dealer GM. Touch base with them in follow up to see how the resolution is coming. I understand Sly's concerns, regarding being, and I paraphrase: 'beta testers'. Even so, though I probably agree philosophically with the concern, I believe that, pragmatically speaking, we might well be in the position of 'beta' testers of this machine. Note: This is my opinion. I don't particularly mind being a beta tester. As a matter of fact, it's similar to how I make a living these days. Just (and this is to Buell) please listen, and give credence to my feedback. Anonymous, your last post says it all..."Help us, not hurt us." That certainly applies to every facet of this complex human equation. | ||
| Unibear12r |
Thank you Anony. We are trying to be helpful and productive, not disruptive. Asjborn, I never thought that my fuel boiled until the time my bike tried to blow a mixture of hot fumes and scalding droplets into my face from the fuel filler. If it had not been for Alan's prior experience I would not of known what to expect. I've never seen that kind of heat and over pressure in a motorcycle fuel tank. You cannot hear the boiling unless you open the tank or put your ear almost touching it. The only clue was the front-rear fuel system unbalance trouble code the bike had just threw. The two other times I noticed high tank pressure/boiling the bike threw the front O2 sensor code. The dealer has checked and rechecked the cannister, tubes, check valve and O2 sensor and never found a problem. I believe them. According to the techs who have worked on my bike the cannister is ported to the front intake. It is my belief that the extra restriction in the Cali evap system causes the higher pressure in Cali bikes when the fuel boils. It is my belief that when the system is saturated a large amount of fumes are being shot into the front intake. The vast majority of the time the fuel system adapts and just takes it except for the very rare times that there is so much that the engine management system thinks that something is wrong and throws a trouble code for the unbalance between the O2 sensors or that the front O2 is faulty (when it's actually not faulty at all). The majority of the time a Cali rider will never know it's happening. A 49 state rider will just notice a horrible smell in his garage after he rides. I found out what they are talking about when my vent tube was left off once. By the way the boiling sounds FAR louder when the vent is to atmosphere. IMHO there's nothing wrong with the bikes operating system at all. Likely the newer oxygenated fuel blends have to take part of the credit. But the other half of the problem is that the fuel tank just gets too hot at slow speeds and after the fans shut off when parked. I'll be the first to say that I'm not truly qualified to say that this is what is actually happening but it is the only logical conclusion that I personally can come up with. (Message edited by unibear12r on May 17, 2008) | ||
| Anonymous |
One more thing. I and many techs have been wrenching for years. Me, bikes, cars,diesels, lawnmowers,propane vehicles, you name it. It's all the same principal: intake,compression,power,exhaust. Yes I know differences in 2 stroke. That aside, we know how engines work and how to fix them when they don't. Someone comes up with a different way to deliver the four cycles (on four stroke engines) to make the HP and torque, then we have to adapt and learn their concepts. slyp I am NOT in any way doubting or disputing your concerns and agree with them and reading your previous posts you are very intelligent and know what your talking about. You have helped many people with your insights. I don't agree with your input on this one though. You are valuable and hope you will continue in the exploration and improvement of these fine machines. | ||
| Anonymous |
alans, you said what I tried to. THANK YOU, to no end! You know what I deal with every day on new models. Collectively, we can get the job done! | ||
| Unibear12r |
Lay off the anony guys. No one person has the horsepower to change the direction of something the size of Buell on their own. No matter who he is. Venting on him is not helpful for anybody. I for one appreciate their willingness to help and would rather not do without their input. Help solve the problems and use the positives to your advantage instead of grousing on the negatives. | ||
| Unibear12r |
You know my bike has around a thousand miles on it. Six hundred of those miles is just riding to and from my dealer, mostly because of the problems I've had. You don't see me taking it out on an anony. Steve Slaughter and I were talking today at Willow Springs and we both thought of how the 1125 reminds us of our S3s. They started out with some problems but when we look back over the last ten years we realize they turned out to be great motorcycles. In the past every problem I've ever had with a Buell, they made right. Big or small. I have little doubt the 1125 will turn out to be a great bike. (Message edited by unibear12r on May 17, 2008) | ||
| Anonymous |
Thank you Unibear12r. Everybody, let's move forward. Give me your input as I have direct contact with BMC. Tell me your issues and I will relay them with the proper input that I can reproduce and prove. WE WILL GET THESE ISSUES RESOLVED! |
