| Author | Message | ||
     Freezerburn |
I picked up the mag just yesterday. I think any reader would say "duh" to the fact that the Buell had more power in a head to head comparison. That qualifier was said as not to offend the Ducati faithful. How anyone here could remotely take offense to that comment is surprising. Maybe they could have worded it like "it really wasn't fair to compare the power of the two bikes going up the mountain as the Ducati is giving up about 20 RWHP across the whole power curve compared to the Buell". I found the article fair. Truly a shame their test bikes were having issues. It was their responsibility to share those problems in their comparison. I also think they see a lot of promise with this new bike (hopefully platform). | ||
| Mingo |
Anonymous, in the races you spoke of,is the Buell 1125 electrical charging system being used to charge the battery, or is the battery a total loss system,just running the ignition and injection and does'nt get recharged until after the race by a plug in the wall battery charger? (Message edited by mingo on May 12, 2008) | ||
| Spike |
I went out and picked up the magazine on my lunch break. I actually found it to be a really good article. They gave sound reasoning for putting the bikes together: Both are v-twins that defy typical displacement categories yet approach the "liter" class from two different angles while offering similar outright performance, even if the Buell has a clear power advantage. They did address the numerous failures of the test bikes, but they didn't harp on about them. Considering they had four bikes in a row with failures, they were quite lenient. They even included this little blurb near the end of the article: "All six press bikes came off the production line in close succession, so it stands to reason that a bad batch of parts could have infected the lot." One of the parts I didn't like reading about, but happened to agree with, was the bit about the Helicon's mechanical clatter. I like the 1125R's power delivery, but it does seem a bit unrefined and noisy. Ducati has a knack for building a symphony into their v-twins. The various rattles and ticks of the Helicon are a cacophony in comparison. Aside from that, I thought the article was really favorable toward the 1125R. Here are a few of the quotes that caught my attention:
And the final two paragraphs:
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| Dentguy |
The exact quote was "The 1125R showed promise during runs up and down twisty Mt. Palomar Road, one of our local test venues. It's midrange power advantage almost felt like cheating (hey, it does have a nearly 30 percent displacement advantage) when driving out of uphill corners; gear selection was not a concern." I would take that as a compliment. Pulling hard out of turns and not having to worry about gear selection. A compliment maybe, but they certainly went out of their way to qualify the "compliment". Why didn't they just say something like this: "The 1125R showed promise during runs up and down twisty Mt. Palomar Road, one of our local test venues. It's midrange power was superior to that of the 848. When driving out of uphill corners; gear selection was not a concern." Maybe they wanted to state the facts. The Buell does have a nearly 30 percent displacement advantage like they said. I thought they were very fair and I don't think they were out to offend or not offend anyone. (Message edited by dentguy on May 12, 2008) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
We look forward to riding a fully sorted, gremlin-free 1125R. Egads, Buell is not helping itself. These mag reviews may be the single best or worst advertising for the 1125r. We know it is a GREAT bike, but to bring over the mainstream, the magazines must concur. | ||
| Mingo |
They don't mention anything about the Buells boiling fuel.Is that good or did'nt they run long enough for the boil? (Message edited by mingo on May 12, 2008) | ||
| Elvis |
Maybe they wanted to state the facts. The Buell does have a nearly 30 percent displacement advantage. I thought they were very fair. That was my first comment when I read the article - it seemed fair. Then I saw the Dyno chart and I started thinking: "Why didn't they include that in the article?" So I looked through for mentions of the power difference and I found the highly qualified statement regarding mid-range. Then I started thinking: "Power is a pretty important aspect of a motorcycle isn't it? Why do they spend so much time dancing around but not making a point of the large advantage the Buell has in that area?" Lord knows when previous Buells have been put up against more powerful competition the reviewers didn't shy away from pointing out the Buell's poor power. Ultimately, I don't think it's anything nefarious. I think Cycle World realized they were comparing bikes in two different classes so they took that variable off the table. But that's the Buell's big advantage. They offer dramatically better power at a lower price, so after that was taken off the table, the review became based on details that favored the Duc. I just wish they would have compared the 1125R to the 1098 so they wouldn't have had to pull any punches. The same review against the 1098 would have shown similar results, but then at least Buell could have lost to the heavyweight champ instead of his stand-in. It ended up being a no-win situation for the Buell. Even if they had clearly "won" everybody would have discounted it because they were picking on the "baby Ducati". Not really a big deal, just frustrating the way it played out. | ||
| Socoken |
Thats a good way to put it Elvis. Its also kinda tough for CW, because if they pick the Buell, they are just being patriotic. If they pick the Duc, they are just selling more advertising. If I was them, I would have picked the one that didnt give me problems, in a heartbeat. I liked that they were pretty forgiving, going through four test bikes and all. But, they did downplay the bigtime power advantage the 1125r had. Its a bummer they didnt like the brakes though. Anyone else a little let down by the 161mph top speed? Was that just on the track with the short strait? I think the new Duc's headlights look a lot like the firebolts. There is a white XBR around town here with a full fairing kit that looks a lot like the 848 testbike, from the front anyway. The Ducs have a much sexier tail though. | ||
| Brad1445 |
We look forward to riding a fully sorted, gremlin-free 1125R. I get in trouble when I say that. | ||
| Jimidan |
According to Anony, they used such a short track that there would not have been any advantage if they had made the compario to the 1098...and maybe a disadvantage, since the 848 probably has an advantage against its larger sibling there too. I don't think that the problem lies in the performance of the two bikes though, it is with the reliability issues. Buell already has an uphill battle against the conventional wisdom that they are not reliable, whether it is real or imagined. This article reinforced that perception to many that the Buell 1125R is a "Muslim"...metaphorically speaking.  | ||
| Spike |
Agreed, unfortunately. If you subtract the reliability issue from the article, the article essentially says that while lacking the Ducati flavor and flair, the 1125R is more comfortable, more powerful, less expensive, easier to ride, every bit as quick around a track, and most likely quicker around a track if you're not an expert level racer. That would have been an extremely powerful message were it not marred by the reliability factor. I imagine lots of people are keeping their eye on Buell now that Buell has built a non-HD-powered bike, watching to see how the bike turns out. A review like this will likely send them right back to their position of ignoring Buell as a quirky and unreliable niche bike. I expect that Buell will sort out the issues with the 1125R in time, and that the 1125R will draw a new breed of Buell owners just like each generation preceding it. However, problem-plagued reviews like this will keep Buell from being accepted as a mainstream motorcycle manufacturer. | ||
| Blake |
No one other than you Jimi would ever equate Buell motorcycles to muslims. Seek therapy. | ||
| Bigblock |
Damn Jimi, I don't want to get into with you, but you can sure be a pr!ck! | ||
| Jimidan |
No one other than you Jimi would ever equate Buell motorcycles to muslims. Seek therapy. Oh come on Blake, where is your sense of humor? You know what i am talking about! Jeez! | ||
| Jimidan |
Damn Jimi, I don't want to get into with you, but you can sure be a pr!ck! Tough crowd today...huh? Are you guys bitter? | ||
| Zac4mac |
I'm not real big on being politically correct, but that was crass and uncalled for. Z | ||
| Mingo |
Jimi Dee, your original post on the Cycle World write-up was just what i was thinking too. (Message edited by mingo on May 14, 2008) | ||
| Spatten1 |
Jimi, I don't even understand the analogy, I certainly hope it's not derogatory. | ||
| Jimidan |
If I have to 'splain it to ye...it would be crass and uncalled for...or not PC, or something like that to some people's kids. I assure you that it is not derogatory to the Buell. It has to do with people's perceptions being based on myths rather than facts...i.e., the Buells rep about being unreliable. Once that bug has crawled into their ear, or been PUT there by someone else for nefarious reasons, they can't get it out...like someone being falsely branded as being a Muslim. Sound familiar? In some folks minds it sticks like stink on you know what, in spite of evidence to the contrary. Go back an read my original post and forget that I mentioned it. Jeez! | ||
| Spatten1 |
It would be a much more thoughtful perspective to say that the majority of Muslims and Buells get a bad rap because of a •••••• problemed minority in the population. To me it is sad how easy it is for some people to believe most Buells are good, but hard to believe most Muslims are good. Both have plenty of •••••• up examples in the population, but both are just fine in the majority. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Believe me, I'm no fan of militant Islamists. I say kill'em all. However, some poor sap born into Islam who is just trying to work hard and raise a family doesn't deserve to log in here to get blasted. | ||
| Brad1445 |
If you think its a derogatory statement then you are a bigot. Muslim is not a negative word. Are you thinking terrorist? Thats another topic. | ||
| Spatten1 |
I did not make any assumptions. I said I did not understand the analogy and Jimi responded: If I have to 'splain it to ye...it would be crass and uncalled for...or not PC, or something like that to some people's kids. To me, he clarified that it was intended to be derogatory. I did not interpret anything. ••••••• read, think, then respond. Don't just glance at my post then try to be smart and blast me out of context. | ||
| Blake |
Some folks cannot seem to discuss much of anything without injecting freakish political commentary. Equating a minority of Buell motorcycles experiencing problems to a minority of muslims who engage in mass-murder and terrorism is more than just ludicrous; it is dead wrong. | ||
| Jimidan |
There he goes again... Say what? Since when is it freakish political commentary that Buells get an undeserved bad rep based on myths...just like some folks get branded as a Muslim unfairly for nefarious reasons? It is YOU who brought in this whole mass-murder and terrorism thingy...where the heck did that come from? Hmmm...and you think I need therapy!  It was a freaking joke, son, a joke. | ||
| Sethbuchbinder |
Back on topic, Spike hit it rite on the nose. I could not have said it better. "Agreed, unfortunately. If you subtract the reliability issue from the article, the article essentially says that while lacking the Ducati flavor and flair, the 1125R is more comfortable, more powerful, less expensive, easier to ride, every bit as quick around a track, and most likely quicker around a track if you're not an expert level racer. That would have been an extremely powerful message were it not marred by the reliability factor. I imagine lots of people are keeping their eye on Buell now that Buell has built a non-HD-powered bike, watching to see how the bike turns out. A review like this will likely send them right back to their position of ignoring Buell as a quirky and unreliable niche bike. I expect that Buell will sort out the issues with the 1125R in time, and that the 1125R will draw a new breed of Buell owners just like each generation preceding it. However, problem-plagued reviews like this will keep Buell from being accepted as a mainstream motorcycle manufacturer." It is clear that the ball was dropped with regard to the quality of the bikes provided for the journalists. Though it seems by the blurb about wanting to test a fully sorted 1125 that they are willing to give the bike the benefit of the doubt and try it for a third time, I think that the average reader/ non Buell owner who is ready to make a purchase will be less likely to wait for a third or fourth review and will likely pass on the bike all together. All we Buell faithful can hope for is that these perspective buyers happen to find there way in to a dealership like liberty or some of the others who have the knowledgeable enthusiastic staff who can open there eyes to just how great this bike is.( or take great care of them in the service dept if they should happen to get a bike with some teething issues. We all know Chris has you covered at liberty. Also, I would like to have seen the bike up against the 1098 or both the 1098 and the 848. Also, a different venue would have been better, perhaps Road America. Im sure that in time, the Buell name will be synonymous with quality and reliability , but reviews like this sure seem to be making steps in the wrong direction in the public eye. .02 Seth | ||
| Jimidan |
It is clear that the ball was dropped with regard to the quality of the bikes provided for the journalists. Though it seems by the blurb about wanting to test a fully sorted 1125 that they are willing to give the bike the benefit of the doubt and try it for a third time, I think that the average reader/ non Buell owner who is ready to make a purchase will be less likely to wait for a third or fourth review and will likely pass on the bike all together. All we Buell faithful can hope for is that these perspective buyers happen to find there way in to a dealership like liberty or some of the others who have the knowledgeable enthusiastic staff who can open there eyes to just how great this bike is.( or take great care of them in the service dept if they should happen to get a bike with some teething issues. We all know Chris has you covered at liberty. Also, I would like to have seen the bike up against the 1098 or both the 1098 and the 848. Also, a different venue would have been better, perhaps Road America. Im sure that in time, the Buell name will be synonymous with quality and reliability , but reviews like this sure seem to be making steps in the wrong direction in the public eye. I don't think that this will be the last compario for the 1125R, and it is a safe bet that Buell will get the bugs worked out of the FI, the heat out of the right leg and we will have a better motorcycle because if it. Maybe some other mag like Motorcyclist will bring your dream ticket comparison to fruition, and throw in one of them RC8's while they are at it. This review isn't a death blow to the bike...shucks it is just a bump in the road, a long winding road like at Road Atlanta. (Message edited by jimidan on May 16, 2008) | ||
| Elvis |
I don't think that this will be the last compario for the 1125R, and it is a safe bet that Buell will get the bugs worked out of the FI, the heat out of the right leg and we will have a better motorcycle because if it. Maybe some other mag like Motorcyclist will bring your dream ticket comparison to fruition, and through in one of them RC8's while they are at it. Exactly. Imagine for a moment you're Ducati. You have to be pleased with this review . . . don't you? If I were on Ducati's board, I'd be a little nervous. A year ago, I had no real competition in the V-Twin Superbike realm. Now this Buell, while costing $4000 less than the 1098 puts out very similar power with very similar weight. It's more comfortable than the 1098, has better wind protection and ergonomics . . . yet it gets around a very tight, twisty track as quickly as the 848. The Buell has lower maintenance costs, lower insurance costs and a broad dealer network . . . The biggest, most damning problems the Buell had (electrical and fuel delivery) aren't only very fixable, but likely already fixed. Of course the Ducati looks better . . . if I were this hypothetical Ducati board member, I'd be hoping nobody at Buell thinks to add a lower fairing . . . like several after-market people have already done . . . Ducati won the battle, but they can't be completely happy with the outlook for the war. | ||
| Chadhargis |
Ducati is a niche bike. Most people own a Ducati simply because it's a Ducati. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE them. I think they are moto porn. But if you want to go fast around a race track, or in a straight line for that matter, go get a GSX-R1000 or other Hondakawayammasuzki bike. They are LOAD cheaper, faster, reliable, cheap to maintain, and you can practically build one from eBay parts. Junk yards are full of crashed examples too. Ducati isn't scared of Buell. They are sitting right where they want to be. They are selling every 1098, Desmosidici, 848, Hypermotard, etc....that they can make. The only mass of Ducatis I see on my dealer floor is Monsters. The rest either have a "sold" sign on them, or they don't have any at all. Imagine being in the unique position of selling a $40,000 bike (1098R) and there being a waiting list to get one. | ||
| Spike |
Just food for thought- If they produced as many 1098Rs (or base 1098s for that matter) as they did Monster variants, would there still be a waiting list? I'd love to see production numbers and sales figures for their lineup. |
