| Author | Message | ||
     Shotgun |
Here's an adaptation: http://www.125ccsportsbikes.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=12000 A turbo scavanged from a Renault. | ||
| Ezblast |
A large intercooler with variable pressure outlet - to relieve pressurization on off stroke time - similar to the duc supercharger in that part of theory, but exhaust driven - so lighter in theory - there goes mileage, but for area storming - its still a tight idea - stock piston and definate head work - would/could run 11 to 13 lbs, wet maybe 17 - lol - still - it would be a custom job - you'd think someone with those requisite skills would have done done it though - how much is such a turbo, hd oil pump to have oil at the turbo also - piping custom, the intercooler - how big and the pressure equalizer valve from intercooler to carb, and the carb - hmmm - a lot still unknown - and I'm still waiting to see it happen - GT - JBOTDS! EZ  | ||
| Totolandman |
Ez, I stumbled across this on eBay: Motorcycle Turbo (Item number: 160143524093) What do you think? Is it possible that this could be adapted to work with the Blast? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem =&item=160143524093&rd=1 | ||
| Ezblast |
Very possible - would probably work very well - contact Jim Higgins for plumbing details - lol GT - JBOTDS! EZ | ||
| Buuueller |
HHhhmmm....very interesting. Thats pretty expensive for a turbo though. The use of a turbo is easier than people think. You would have to tune it on a dyno for sure to get the A/F correct. Its much easier to tune on a fuel injected engine. What about advance timing? That would help eliminate the use of an intercooler, prob not. Although http://www.ststurbo.com/ uses remote mount turbos on cars without intercoolers because the charged pipe acts as a heat sink. I actually copied thier design on my Dakota truck. From thier site: "As for reliability, we have been running our prototype STS Turbocharged 2003 Honda CBR600RR in the 'Masters of the Mountains' series races at Miller Motorsports Park this summer with incredible results. We have been running the bike in the open class endurance races. These are open class 1 hour long endurance races. The bike has performed flawlessly throughout all of the races and finished 1st place overall and 1st place in Team at the 9/16/06 race - lapping all other riders (including the 1000cc bikes) clear up to and including the 3rd place rider. The 2nd place bike finished 1 minute and 11 seconds behind (almost a full lap on the 2.2 mile course)."  (Message edited by buuueller on August 07, 2007) | ||
| J2blue |
My novice curiosity has me wanting to revive this thread a bit. Not just turbo-chargers but what about super-chargers? And the fuel injection question, is it something that just isn't practical with the Blast? I don't have that deep of an understanding of engine mechanics but my first impression of the whole Blast carburetor setup is that it ain't so good, especially that rubber intake do-dad. I had to replace it before I could really ride mine after buying with less than 2 years and 1,000 miles on it. All that space left vacant by the second cylinder just begs for some hot supercharged, fuel-injected intake mod. But I'm as green as they get with motorcycles and the engines that move them. Call me eager to learn. | ||
| Buuueller |
Your right about the carb boot. Its crap. Just a cheap item where money could be saved. It wouldnt last on a boosted application and a solid intake would be needed. The CV carb has been around for a long time and is quite capable of providing (after rejetting) the A/F mixture for a boosted Blast. They are capable of enough jetting for a built big twin. The toughest part about turboing an engine is deciding on the turbo size. Its gotta be large enough to supply desired boost levels at predetermined rpm ranges for the engine its on, but not so large that it causes lag. There are some simple calculators you can find online that help size turbo applications usually determined by engine size and the rpm range the boost would be needed. But it would be best to speak with some turbo manufacturers to determine the most effective unit and size. A minimal 5ish psi of boost (just off the top of my head) would likely get close to doubling the Blasts power. A waist gate or equivalent would be needed to prevent overboosting. And, although a blow off valve may not be necessary it wouldnt be a bad idea either...they sound cool as hell too. The challenge is preventing detonation. With an air cooled engine, heat would make detonation a major issue to overcome. You usually combat detonation with intercoolers, high octane fuels, water injection, retarded timing. Most of these are still practical with an application on a Blast. An ignition upgrade (for adjustable timing for detonation prevention and higher redline) and an upgraded topend that could handle higher rpm's(due to the must faster climb to redline) would be a must. Piping a turbo is the easy part, exhaust to turbo, turbo to carb, carb to head. Oil pressure from a line tapped from the engine gives enough lubrication to it, you just have to install one high enough so that gravity can drain oil back into the crank case. Pressure wont do it alone, ask me how I know....heh That wouldnt be hard to do when it would fit where the stock air box is located. If I was to compare the two, superchargers would be less practical on a Blast due to the extra expense created when the unit has to be driven by direct connection to the crank in some way. Otherwise, the expected benefits and challenges are quite similar. Its highly unlikely that a Boosted Blast would survive racing at constant speeds without perfect tuning, intercoolers, and much stronger internals. But I would slap a small one on mine right now if I had the time. Just jetting around town, I bet she would hold up fine. (Message edited by buuueller on May 07, 2008) | ||
| J2blue |
Good info, thanks! I've been a slaggard today and have been googling around this topic a bit. Though, as you say, the Blast engine probably isn't up to handling much boost, I did find a bunch of stuff on the Rotrex C15 supercharger that looks like it would fit geometrically very well into the void behind the cylinder. It is their smallest charger, I believe, and capable of boosting 2+ litre engines very well. Like I said, this is just my crazy, creative, inexperienced thinking on the topic...but I'm having fun thinking about it since I can't be out riding right now.  For inspiration I found this set of pictures: http://www.mountainperformance.com/utv_rhino_pics. htm Notice in the pictures a single cylinder engine with the charger mounted behind the cylinder driven by the crankcase below. Of course they are using a big intercooler. I was thinking of a small charge cooler that used peltier devices to cool the charge air mounted in the plenum space of the existing air intake system. The peltier's wouldn't be turned on during startup and idle, only under WOT or other stress conditions as determined by the EFI controller. Well, that is enough imagineering. Someone else will have to say if it is a crazy idea or possibly doable. | ||
| Reuel |
I will say it's a crazy and possibly doable.    | ||
| Gearheaderiko |
Crazy is where some of the best ideas come from! The Dark Side calls loudly to this one!!! | ||
| Buuueller |
Oh my, I think it moved..... Theres some recent pictures floating around of a highly modded v-twin buell with a blower. http://www.gizmag.com/go/8183/ It has a real show bike look to it but it may give some ideas leading toward how to crank drive a huffer. Heres a very expensive kit but more pics for ideas. http://www.cas4.com/Supercharger-Turbo/Supercharge r/EM/Supercharger-EM.htm Procharger: http://www.procharger.com/V-Twin2008/vtwin07.shtml What does that supercharger kit for the four wheeler goes for? | ||
| Buuueller |
Nevermind found the prices: SUPERCHARGER KITS msr-1000 Rhino Stage 1 10PSI Supercharger Kit - Complete $ 4195 ggt-2200 Boost Gauge $66.29 ggt-2300 Wide Band Digital Recording True Air/Fuel ratio Gauge (requires bung) $439.95 ggt-2310 O2 Sensor Weld in Bung (Stainless Steel) $14.95 ggt-2311 O2 Sensor Weld in Bung (Titanium) $24.95 ggw-0100 Blower Oil Temp or Engine Water Temp Gauge & Clock $119.95 ggw-0200 Blower Oil Temp & Engine Water Temp Gauge, Tach, Voltage & Clock $259.95 ggw-0250 Water Temp Sending Unit Adaptor & Clamps $ 39.95 | ||
| Buuueller |
Or a $60 turbo. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Yanmar-Kubota-KKK-K P31-Smart-tiny-turbo-Turbocharger_W0QQitemZ3500572 58184QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item350057258184& | ||
| Buuueller |
Rhino turbo kit: http://www.turbokits.com/rhino_turbo_kits.html Poliaris: http://www.turbokits.com/polaris_rzr_turbo_kits.ht ml | ||
| J2blue |
That Yanmar turbo is so cute - makes you just want to reach out and tickle it! It is probably more adequately sized than the Rotrex I referenced, even though it is exhaust driven. Application is everything and the turbos make a great choice for top-end speed. I like solid, table-flat torque for most everything else. Hence the mechanically drive blower idea. I believe the custom blown Buell was the Lazareth Buell creation that used a supercharger from a Peugot engine and was mounted way above the cylinders in the tank cavity. It was driven by a big fat belt on the left side. Some of it was more for cool looks I'm sure. I did notice the knee guard they placed between the belt and the rider. That is some amazing imagineering, and from a Frenchman no less! | ||
| Buuueller |
Haha, tickle it... It wouldnt do much for adding much needed masculinity to the Blast would it? If I ever get my Blast bobber project done, I may seriously look into figuring out how to boost this thing. I actually found a site where a guy is developing the use of smog pumps as a poor mans blower. He has run several on a small block chevy and even incorporated the use of electric a/c compressor clutches so he can turn them on and off. Ive seen dumber things....... | ||
| Buuueller |
I pulled this off a forum: "i just stuck my head in his shop on my way home and here´s the setup that worked for him. the ehgine is a honda DAX 50 cc moped, but according to him is anything under 700cc fine, the smog pump has to be under-driven in order not to over boost the engine, also (i immediately did the math and figured you could mount eight of them on top of a SBC and have a poor mans supercharger, sort of a port-fuel-supercharger ) but the point he made was that on a one cylinder engine you should make a plenum of some sorts, i know that any intake on a single is a plenum, but it should ideally hold about 10-15 times the volume of air the cylinder consumes on each intake stroke, that way the pressure is constant throughout the intake stroke to give better filling and it will be better on the smog pump.. the smog pump has to be the vaned type found in older GM cars, it has a center baring that keeps the vanes from contacting the housing and he says that it will do any rpm a GM v8 will do. so to amend my description from above, any carb before the pump (since it is a positive displacement type supercharger you really cant do a through as the boost would simply sky-rocket when the throttle was closed) i think any carb from a small motorcycle with a HP rating in the range you are aiming for will be fine, then blow into a chamber with about 10-15 times the volume of the engine displacement and you are set to go racing (wonder what would happen if you put one on a junior dragster?) not all the pumps has equal displacement, so get some from a 350 police car od 454 truck if you plan to supercharge a motorcycle engine, (or eight of them on an SBC/SBF)" | ||
| J2blue |
Unless you hate injectors one of the many advantages they have are the ability to work "under pressure" so to speak. I know in cars they use them both ways. An injector for a 2L 4 banger would be matched for cylinder volume pretty good. Inter-cooling or charge air cooling seems a must either way. Has anyone ever measured the intake air temperature of the Blast with an ambient temp around 75F? It may be possible to get some gains without the added pressure simply by cooling the intake air if it normally gains heat before being swallowed. Listen to me. I've been at this motorcycle thing only recently and I'm already day dreaming like a kid. Hopefully my replacement helmet comes in tomorrow so I can get back on the Blast and ride. | ||
| Reuel |
I could drill a 1/4" hole in my intake and epoxy a small digital temperature gauge in the air stream. Hey! Does that make a difference in ignition timing and fuel/air mixture? More readings to add to calculations ... | ||
| Buuueller |
Yes, intake tempurature makes a big difference in how you would set ignition timing. Its all about preventing detonation (which is important to research and understand). Im not trying to act like Im an expert but....to put it in the most simple terms, detonation is an uncontrolled ignition of the a/f mixture (before the spark plug ignites it). After the spark ignites another area of the a/f mixture, the two explotions collide together. And eventually engines make bad noises. Its caused by hot spots within the combustion chamber. All of the things mentioned in my earlier post are devices or conditions used when using boost on an engine to prevent detonation. Lets step back for a minute because it has to be understood that cold air in a given space has more molecules within that space than warm air does in the same space. As air is heated by combustion inside your cylinder, the more molecules there are the more violent the expansion or explosion there is, which is what causes more power. When air is compressed (like by turbo or supercharger) the air naturally heats up even without exhaust heat being considered. Even though the compressed air contains more molecules than even the cold intake air of a naturally aspirated engine, the compressed and therefore heated air causes and/or contributes to the hot spots in a cylinder thus producing detonation. An intercooler used with either compressor type can get the air back down, closer to ambiant temps. But there is still a very hot burn in the cylinder due to the friction of all those molecules slamming together. Retarding the timing, or causing the spark to ignite sooner than normal will assist in keeping the burn controlled (expanding from the center of the charge outward) instead of allowing the hot spots to ingite the charge from the cylinder wall outward. That is when its possible for two ignitions to collide together (detonation). That is the clatter you hear when using bad gas. Eventually those hot spots get hot enough to melt metal, usually valves. Some people think high octane fuel means more volitile fuel. Actually higher octane (usually required on high performance cars) is a more stable burning fuel. And is more resistant to igniting from hot spots. | ||
| Fast1075 |
It's all about vapor density...more dense, more possible power...good example is how much better the engine runs on a cold frosty day (dense,dry air) and a steaming florida July afternoon (low density, wet air)... (Message edited by fast1075 on May 09, 2008) | ||
| Buuueller |
Dang, I could have just said that? | ||
| Buuueller |
Another example is higher altitudes having less dense air than at sea level. | ||
| Reuel |
So, now you're saying I need a barometric sensor?   | ||
| Buuueller |
Ha ha...No, not at all. I didnt mean to scare you off. I just got a little carried away with my explanation.  | ||
| Reuel |
My whole idea of my own ignition design and eventual EFI came from EZ having detonation on hot days. | ||
| Fast1075 |
There are fomulae that take into account barometric pressure, sensible temperature and water content to determine effective altitude...you use a barometer, wet bulb thermometer and dry bulb thermometer for your raw data, then compute the effective altitude...In the winter, it is possible to have air state as BELOW sea level. If you are bucks up, you can buy self contained "weather stations" tha you just turn on and they read out effective altitude automatically...if you are REAL BIG bucks up...it can send updates to a pager device so you can make changes in the staging lanes. At Gainesville one march after a cold front blew through...the effective altitude for several hours was -120 ft..some seriously killer air....unfortunately, the cold kills the traction...but basically anything under 1500 feet is generally considered really good...water grains less than 50 is perfect...but you better be using your historical data to extrapolate if you are running any kind of razor edge tune. (Message edited by fast1075 on May 09, 2008) | ||
| Buuueller |
Good points, that being said theres no wonder most speed records are broken in southern locations. I had a turbo stang when stationed in Denver with the Army. When I came home to Dallas on leave that car felt like a different monster, even without a different tune. An average street motor wouldnt need adjustments that frequently, you would just feel a slight loss of power in the mountains(although EFI would make those slight adjustments automatically). EZ's knocking when its hot is evidence of detonation issues we have already discussed. I will bet dollars to donuts that he would eliminate this by uping the octane grade of gas on those days or retarding the timing a bit. If I know him, hes got timiing as high as he can get it. heh heh | ||
| Reuel |
You're right about EZ's knocking. That's what started me going. I thought to myself that there should be a temperature sensor that should adjust instead of him having to adjust. | ||
| Indybuell |
I had one of these on my 2000 Eclipse. I wonder if it would work on a blast! http://www.electricsupercharger.com/ |
