| Author | Message | ||
     Jpfive |
When my bike did this, syco, it turned out to be the throttle cable binding, in the area of the solenoid. According to my dealer's repair order they moved the solenoid slightly to provide better clearance. I noticed it after the dealer replaced my inner airbox. The throttle began binding after I rotated it full cycle, going through the diagnostic series in park mode, while my steering lock was engaged. I am having no problems now with it, and had none before that. I don't believe that the normal operation of the solenoid spring should cause these problems. Jack | ||
| Brad1445 |
Blake It is obvious that in Hdwrench we have been fortunate to find an enthusiastic, intelligent, and eager Buell technician with a heartfelt desire to support the brand and his customers. Shame on anyone who overlooks that in favor of a circling the wagons fear-induced legal protectionist approach to such issues. Shame _____________________________________ +1000 | ||
| Sycojomo |
Jpfive, I spoke with the dealer a little while ago, and was told that BMC-CS recommended that they install a completely new throttle body assembly. I guess we'll see what happens. | ||
| Jpfive |
I think you might be the first for a new TB. Keep us posted how it turns out for you. Jack | ||
| Zac4mac |
Loretta has refused to learn what altitude she's at, just like when I was down in Texas last month. At the request of BMC, she's now at HC-HD/B for further investigation. I am without my baby for a few days.  | ||
| Krassh |
So what is happening does she start running crappy when changing altitude? | ||
| Sycojomo |
My dealer received the new throttle body today, and is working with it. I will let you know what happens. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Must be something wrong with Loretta Zac as I just had the reflash done with the cures and its running better at low rpm and the other things some are experiencing but as before I regularly go from 4200 ft. at the house to 8000, being careful for wetness and snow on the roads and no problems with my baby going up or down in a matter of hours and trashing it somewhat along the entire route. I thought the ride home from the dealer after having it reflashed would be a learning curve for the ECM but did not notice anything irregular, just slightly better. Hope the dealer finds something and learns from what they fine. Please pass on what they find as you have been doing and good luck. | ||
| Krassh |
Definitely something wrong. I live at 4700 feet routinely go to 8000 and down as far as a few hundred feet with no issues. | ||
| Odinbueller |
HDWrench; PM sent, hope to hear from you soon in confidence. Chris | ||
| Spatten1 |
Loretta has refused to learn what altitude she's at, just like when I was down in Texas last month. At the request of BMC, she's now at HC-HD/B for further investigation. Definitely something wrong. I live at 4700 feet routinely go to 8000 and down as far as a few hundred feet with no issues. With DDFI 2 it can learn as altitude changes IF you ride it within certain parameters. Buell will not publicize what those parameters are, so riders get a widely different experience. Ray's bike almost didn't make it over a 12.5k foot pass last year, and mine did just fine. We have no idea why one bike adjusted for altitude and the other did not. Usually, and since then his has done great. Mine seems to be adjusting much better now that I try to get some steady cruise in rather than riding at high RPM and high throttle openings all the time. When I used to truck my bike from Summit Point to home, it ran horribly for a while at the lower altitude. I know DDFI 3 has additional sensor(s) that should help with this. For DDFI 3, has Buell publicized how the ECM/map updates for altitude changes? | ||
| Jpfive |
Spatten, the newly released Electrical Diagnostic Manual for the 11 has the answer to your question. I will try to be accurate. The engine runs in either open-loop or closed-loop operation. "During closed loop operation the O2 sensors provide input for an optimal air/fuel mixture.... In order for the system to enter closed loop operation, certain conditions must be met: O2 sensors must be at the normal operating temperature of the engine, and the engine must be operating below 4200 rpm with engine under steady or light conditions." During closed loop operation then (my thoughts here), the engine is not reading a map, but is being driven to a stoichiometric a/f mixture by constant reference to the O2 sensors. During this mode, the other sensors are redundant. Most of the time, however, we are operating our sport bike outside of these parameters, which puts the engine in open loop mode. "During open loop operation, the system uses programmed fuel and spark maps in the ECM providing easy cold starting and maximum power at WOT. The adaptive fuel value, learned during closed loop operation, is applied to open loop operation to adjust fuel and spark maps for optimal performance." So far, then, the system operates very similar to the DDFI-2 in my XB. However, there is a broader array of sensors in the DDFI-3 system and the information from these sensors operate _directly_ to modify output of the injectors, in addition to the correction applied broadly to the air/fuel map by the adaptive fuel value. There are 13 sensors providing input to the ECM. The sensors that allow real time adjustment to altitude changes are the Barometric Pressure Sensor and the Intake Air Temperature Sensor. "The BARO sensor is a constantly running direct fuel modifier. It sends continuous information to the ECM, where the signal is processed and the injectors adjusted for variations in ambient barometric pressure..... Changes in barometric pressure are influenced by weather and altitude. Air density is a combination of barometric pressure and air temperature.....intake air temperature combined with barometric pressure is used by the ECM to compensate for these variations." Whew! Clear now...? Jack | ||
| Zac4mac |
I decided since I couldn't ride, I'd play Half-Life 2 for a while and KILL STUFF. I couldn't stand the way she ran anymore, rough as a cobb. Apparently BMC felt there was something wrong other than my riding habits. They want some tests run and numbers/movies sent back, so hopefully others will benefit from my tribulations. I should have her back in a week or so, with proper lookups for the fuel/spark algorithms. She thought she was home, while I was in Texas and ran rough the whole time. After the reflash, she thought she was in Texas and ran rough again. Next week, she'll realize she's home. All you said Jack, is the way it's SUPPOSED to be. Theoretically the ECM should adjust in a VERY short time. I was getting cramps trying to hold steady state for 20-30 minutes and no go. Maybe I'll get a new ECM, dunno at this point. I just want them to fix Loretta's Parkinsons Syndrome and I'm confident they will. Time for bed, got an interview tomorrow morning in Denver(Arvada). Bummer, I'll have to drive the Z-28 and dress respectably. Z | ||
| Brad1445 |
Zac, I hope you get your baby back ASAP just the way you remember her. Anyone that loves their bike that much, well this is like the most unfair thing outside of a Florida election. Loretta is famous, they have to treat her good or we will all hunt down the evil doers for you. | ||
| Jpfive |
Sorry, Brad. You touched a nerve with the Florida election comment. Elections aren't unfair when they don't go the way you want. Sorry, again, but had to say it. Anymore discussion on this point, we will have to move to another section. Peace, Jack Florida Central Time Zone Whose Polls Close an Hour Later | ||
| Jpfive |
Zac, best of luck with Loretta - and also with the interview. Jack | ||
| Zac4mac |
Thanks Brad & Jack. I'm very impressed with the personal contact with BMC. I was riding yesterday and my phone started buzzing in my pocket - it was my wife telling me Matt at BMC-CS called. When I called them back, it didn't go to the usual first line of reps - straight to him. Caller ID is amazing. At least in my experience, I have NEVER been treated this well by ANY corporation. I really feel like I'm pestering them but they keep doing back-flips for me AND calling ME back. I have MORE confidence in BMC from this whole experience since receiving Loretta. Can't imagine trusting any other vehicle maker but Buell now. Those guys know how to treat a customer to keep them for life. Gotta run- Z | ||
| Blake |
That is most encouraging.  | ||
| Spatten1 |
Apparently BMC felt there was something wrong other than my riding habits. If it runs like doo-doo under 4k, and only learns under 4,200 rpm, how are you supposed to keep it at steady cruise? Most riders coming from Japanese or Italian bikes will rarely see RPM that low. 4K was the lowest I ran the one I tested, it had nothing below that. Buell should think about raising the closed loop RPM, or at least the learning mode RPM. Riders in the mountains, just like with the XB, may not see steady cruise under 4k all day. Seriously, I almost wrecked while trying to hold my XB at steady cruise to get it to update the map. The other vehicles did not want to cooperate. | ||
| Spatten1 |
ps. I'm very impressed with the attention you are getting. I hope they get it figured out soon. | ||
| Ccryder |
Scott: Just run them OVER!!! Or flash your, well never mind ;+} Mine was flashed last Saturday and it was running pretty good before the flash and running much better after the flash. I can't tell about elevation changes as drastic as your's and Z so, I don't know if that's an issue. Time2Work | ||
| Spatten1 |
Very interesting how some flashes work right out of the box and some don't. Maybe your altitude is identical to Wisconsin. Good to hear yours is a runner. | ||
| Jpfive |
You shouldn't have to run in closed loop for altitude changes. That correction goes directly to the injectors in open loop based on BARO and IAT sensor input. My understanding is that closed loop learning mode adjusts for other variables beside altitude. Jack | ||
| Zac4mac |
Open loop by definition has no learning or updating. Strictly running off lookup tables and a default fuel/spark map or the one it got from "learn mode" in closed loop. Closed loop is when all the sensors are feeding the ECM and the ECM feeds the drivers. Sometimes there's also feedback from the drivers to ensure they're doing what the ECM told them to do. Mine may very well be stuck in open loop, I have no way to tell. So I wait for a verdict. Z (Message edited by zac4mac on May 08, 2008) | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'd say JP theoretically should be right. Open loop systems have numerous set maps, and an altitude change picked up by a baro sensor should kick it to a different map. With DDFI the "set maps" are supposed to be "altered" by O2 feedback from previous closed loop operation. That is the AFV value. DDFI 2 doesn't have a baro sensor, so there is nothing to change it to a different map as you change altitude, except O2 feedback. Therefore it must run in closed loop to update via the O2. DDFI 3 is supposed to overcome that weakness with additional sensors to kick it to a different closed loop map, without steady cruise. | ||
| Jpfive |
Zac and Spatten, my earlier post may not have been clear - but I refer you back to it. Closed loop, in this case, refers to a feedback loop to the O2 sensors only. It happens only when the conditions for that feedback are met (see above). Open loop operation has no 'learning', or updating of the map. However, there is direct BARO sensor input to the injectors (see last paragraph of aforementioned message), the BARO sensor functioning as a "constantly running direct fuel modifier". There is not a separate map that it calls, but direct modification of the injector pulse through the ECM. The map itself is likely an 'alpha/n' table referencing to throttle position/angle and engine rpm/n. My Aprilia used such a table with no closed loop at all, (did not have O2 sensors) but direct modification from the barometric sensor to the injectors to correct for density altitude. This may not jive with previous definitions of open/closed loop with which we have had experience, but it does jive with other systems that I have been familiar with, e.g. the Honda PGM system used on my 2005 VFR (and the Aprilia mentioned above). I may not have explained it well, but I think I understand how it works. When I get home, I will try to pull up a couple of texts that I purchased while trying to work with the VFR, and which I used when doing my own modification to the map on my Caponord (which worked out well, finally, but which I do not easily recommend). Jack | ||
| Slypiranna |
Riding style also affects LFV's and closed/open loop operation...amoung many, many other variables and or conditions. ...far beyond the scope of this site and best left to the professionals, at the dealership and BMC...to diagnose and resolve. | ||
| Anonymous |
Closed loop operation in basic terms means the ecm is using the O2 sensors and making corrections based on those readings. Nothing more. | ||
| Anonymous |
Closed loop and open loop info can be found in the electrical diagnostic manual. (Message edited by jerry_haughton on May 10, 2008) | ||
| Anonymous |
Jpfive the baro has a set map for correction based on baro pressure and load. The ecm doesn't guess on what to modify the fuel pulses. Every reading from the sensors input to the ecm has a predetermined "map" that the ecm uses to regulate fuel pulses and spark regulation-retard or advance. The computers that control these bikes, cars, ETC., are all programmed with maps to change or modify based on readingsof sensors. The computers do not think for themselves- they have to be told what to do in a map for a measured value whether it be baro, iat, O2,Etc. |
