| Author | Message | ||
     Elvis |
What the rest of the world is doing, what the rest of the world is doing, what the rest of the world is doing. . . . . . the rest of the world has 4 Japanese brands racing in most classes with 1 Italian brand thrown in for some of the classes. . . . and in order for BMW to compete, they've been forced to create a bike that looks nearly identical in form and function to the Japanese bikes. I'd say there's some room for improvement over what the rest of the world is doing. . . . with that said, I think the big displacement race should be the premier race (and I have a feeling the consumers may force that issue), but I like the FX format, and I certainly don't see any harm in shaking things up a bit. I think the proposed AMA line-up looks much more interesting and entertaining than the current AMA line-up. I like the idea of some endurance racing. I like the idea of getting some different brands involved. I like the idea of teams competing without the huge variable of tires being such a big factor. I like the idea that each class will have a very unique character and won't have 'Superstock' and 'Superbike' classes that basically look like a bunch of Japanese bikes no matter how you slice it. | ||
| Davegess |
Trojan, I don't think Juan Carlos was washed up in F1 when he made the jump. He certainly gave up a ton of money to come here. For a racer those circle track races can be a lot of fun and a real challenge. They place a premium on driver skills and their machine setup abilities. You can start dead last and win. I can't remember the last time I saw that in F1. I don't much care for NASCAR as a spectator, if you are going to run in circles then dirt is the only way to go. But the Indy car races are fun. Oval or road racing, lots of strategy and the drivers get to race. F1 is much more interesting this year without traction control as the driver gets to drive. Of course now they are outlawing technology that I can buy in my street car so that is kinda weird for the top tier of racing. I must admit to being an old fart and not really liking the top level modern racing. I love watching the MotoGP guys on TV but it is getting to be more and more of a TV show with only the very well connected having any chance to connect with the racers. This is of course happening to all sports. One of things I like about the Isle of Man is that you can watch a top guy win a TT then buy them pint in the pub that night. In most sports the people are STARS and the hype so big that they have no choice but to hide away. Something really important is lost when a GP champion lives locked away in a villa. Can you imagine Sheene or Roberts NOT going down to the hotel bar to celebrate with who ever happened to be there? | ||
| Trojan |
If the factories concensrtate more on WSB and less on AMA they will only hurt them selves in sales here. I doubt they would do that at all. I wouldn't bet on it. Sportsbike sales are far more focussed on Europe than for the US anyway, so if the 'big 4' factories have to choose between rest of the world' and US racing I wouldn't think there would be much of a choice to make. If they leave then the series will loose most of it's credibility along with the big teams. I grew up watching motorcycle racing in England from the mid 60's, during the heyday of Agostini, Hailwood, Read etc. During that time the World championship was actually just a European championship, with no rounds outside Europe and almost no 'foreigners' (from outside Europe) taking part. Nobody thought any less of it (in fact it is still remembered as THE best racing period of all time), Racing was great and nobody even thought about what was happening across the Atlantic, where bike racing had gone down a totally different route and everyone turned left. It was only the arrival of Pat Hennen/Kenny Roberts/Mamola etc that got the series interested in US riders, and now with the demise of the rear wheel steering beasties the supply of US riders has pretty much dried up. A major shift away from 'world' rules will just isolate the USA once again, and leave the rest of the world to carry on as before. It will be incredibly dificult for US riders to make their way into the World championships, and the lack of interest by promoters will just lead to the few International events that are held in the US being cancelled due to lack of interest. The World championships will continue as before without a backward glance. The proposed US rules on the table at present are heavily stacked against the factory teams, with limited prize money and 'strange' formulae. Personally I think that the big 4 will concentrate far more on WSB/MotoGP at the expense of ALL domestic championships in future. We have already seen less factory teams in BSB/AMA this year and a change of fundamental rules will be just the excuse they are looking for to stop racing at national level and leave it to the privateers to slug it out. When that happens the whole quality of racing goes down. I am all for variety in racing, and the FX, Thunderbike, MotoST, Classic, One Make type events all have their places on the calendar. However, the top flight series should always be the very best and fastest bikes with the very best riders, and anything that dilutes that makes the sport suffer as a whole. | ||
| Jaimec |
Getting back on topic: Bayliss does the double!! | ||
| Bads1 |
Matt there is no way.... no way in a million year's. Europe isn't the rest of the world and they wouldn't and won't lose interest in there sales hear.LOL Sorry Nascar is coming and whether they like it or not will dictate how its going to work. They dictate the car manufactures as well as to how the car series will work. They deal with it and move on. Sorry I just don't agree with you. | ||
| Azxb9r |
Smoke= I agree completely. The top class should be allowed to push the envelope, creating carbon copy "spec" machines is for the lower classes. | ||
| Azxb9r |
}Trojan, I don't think Juan Carlos was washed up in F1 when he made the jump I assume you are talking about Juan Pablo Montoya? He had lost his ride with McLaren, and no one else was showing any interest. | ||
| Azxb9r |
Getting back on topic: Bayliss does the double!! Aside from that brief period that he let Kagayama lead, he looked like he was in complete control of the whole event. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, What gave you the idea that there was any kind of significant prize money in AMA racing now? If NASCAR is any indication, then that is one thing that Daytona Motorsports will likely improve, not diminish. Did you also miss that they plan on running a 250GP class called the Rookies Cup? I figured you'd be all excited about that. Can't bring yourself to post anything positive about American racing?  You should be glad we don't send more of our boys over to WSBK. When we do, they just win. I think one reason WSBK went to spec tires and different rules was to avoid having to suffer repeated embarrassment at the hands of the AMA boys in the WSB round at Laguna Seca. | ||
| Trojan |
What gave you the idea that there was any kind of significant prize money in AMA racing now? If NASCAR is any indication, then that is one thing that Daytona Motorsports will likely improve, not diminish. AMA prize money is probably the best in the world right now, and certainly better than BSB or any other national series (except perhaps Japan). The high pay in AMA Superbikes is the main reason why so many foreign riders end up there, and why it can retain top riders such as Mladin year after year. The proposeed liter bike class has NO prize fund at all, and most top riders are not keen on being 'demoted' to ride 600's, regardless of how the series is dressed up. How are privateers going to compete with absolutely no financial rewards at the top level? Unless they introduce some kind of start money it will be a non-event. Did you also miss that they plan on running a 250GP class called the Rookies Cup? I figured you'd be all excited about that. Can't bring yourself to post anything positive about American racing? I missed that announcement, but that is very good news indeed. There is a lot that is positive in US racing right now, but I think most of the new rules are a big step backwards, that's all. You should be glad we don't send more of our boys over to WSBK. When we do, they just win. I think one reason WSBK went to spec tires and different rules was to avoid having to suffer repeated embarrassment at the hands of the AMA boys in the WSB round at Laguna Seca. if you check the records you'll see that the WSB boys also got their asses kicked at Brands Hatch almost every year by British 'wild card' riders, and in Japan by riders from their domestic series. These are always the exception, and it is of course much easier to set a bike up for atrack that you race on all year, and get a good local rider on it, than it is if you only ever visit that circuit once in a season. Shane Byrne, Steve Hislop & Michael Rutter have all shown the WSB regulars the way home at Brands Hatch over the years but have been nowhere when they race on the other WSB circuits. Since Colin Edwards there have, to my knowledge, been no US riders in the top flight of WSB have there? It is the money that keeps them in AMA Superbikes, so maybe we'll see an influx of US riders into WSB when their AMA prize money is reduced to zero  | ||
| Jaimec |
A couple of years ago, Mladin got permission to practice with the WSBK riders on Philip Island because he missed the AMA practices in the States (health or injury... can't remember which). What I do remember is that he WAXED Troy Corser (the current WSBK champ at the time) on a track where Corser should've been MORE than familiar, and Mladin had little reason to know... | ||
| Trojan |
What I do remember is that he WAXED Troy Corser (the current WSBK champ at the time) on a track where Corser should've been MORE than familiar, and Mladin had little reason to know... Things are not always as straightforward as they seem. Mladin may or may not be as good as the rest of the world, but he has firmly resisted racing at world level since his abortive attempt at 500GP a few years ago with Cagiva (a bike that Lawson, Kocinski and Mamola had got some good results on, and that Carl Fogarty finished 4th on at the British GP at his first attempt). His test at Phillip Island (a track that he knows just as well as Corser does by the way) proves nothing, as we don't know the full spec of the bikes tested, or who was testing what even. The only true test would be for Mat Mladin to race against the best in the world on equal machinery. Mladin stays in AMA because he is the big fish in a relatively small pool and gets a lot of money to stay. He also has a whole factory working around him. In WSB he would be just another Australian with something to prove, and he doesn't want that. I am actually pretty sure that Bayliss would still beat him, and he would work hard to beat the top half dozen curent WSB leaders on equal machinery, but we won't get the chance to see it. Yoshimura Suzuki is the factory's number one team at present, and by Yoshimura's own admission the GSXR1000 has been designed & built specifically to win the AMA Superbike crown for the last 4 years at least. With the move away from 1000's and back to 600's I am sure that the factory focus will turn to either WSB, BSB or another domestic series running 1000cc bikes. Perhaps Mladin has chosen the right time to retire. | ||
| Blake |
Where are you finding information on AMA prize money? Last I saw, it was pitifully negligible. | ||
| Blake |
Matt, I agree with the Roger Edmondson's Daytona comments. Maybe you misunderstood them? I read them as not eliminating prize money, but building the sport to where more full-blown fully sponsor-funded teams are involved. I think it’s important that we find a way to move to true professionalism here. I’ll give you an example here. I don’t think that one rider, one bike, a guy getting in a van and going racing somewhere for prize money is professional racing. In other words, the old division used to be, if it made you a little more money than you spent, or if had the potential to make more money than you spent, that was professional racing. Professional racing is when you leave home, your bills are paid for by a sponsor and you’re representing a company. | ||
| Trojan |
I don’t think that one rider, one bike, a guy getting in a van and going racing somewhere for prize money is professional racing. In other words, the old division used to be, if it made you a little more money than you spent, or if had the potential to make more money than you spent, that was professional racing. Professional racing is when you leave home, your bills are paid for by a sponsor and you’re representing a company. “Our goal is to try to build this sport to the point where there are professional teams who are sponsored and have an identity of their own, much like Richard Childress Racing is in NASCAR. That’s not just true in AMA roadracing, that has to be true across the board.” Now maybe I am missing something here, but where does that leave the guy who saves his wages to race at the weekend for a little prize money of he is lucky? If Edmonson thinks he can fill the grid with 'professional teams whose bills are paid by sponsors' then he is living on another planet to the rest of us. Even the current 'professional' sponsored non-factory teams find it hard to make ends meet, and most run at a loss most of the time. They only make it work by having free help and enthusiasm. 'Amatuer' racers are the backbone of all motorcycle sport, and make up the vast majority of teams in pretty much any championship you care to look at. At the moment dealer run and private teams such can run on a tiny budget compared to the factory supported teams, but they are certainly not 'professionals' in the terms that Edmonson suggests, and definitley don't get paid to do it! So what happens to teams like this that make up 2/3rds of the grid? They tried to 'raise the image' of British Superbikes a few years ago by (amongst other things) excluding the privateer 'man with a van' from the paddock and only allowing 'professional' transporters and teams in. They also tried to get only the 'big' teams to race in BSB. What resulted was a drastic drop off in numbers and grids of 10 or less bikes  They had to do a U-turn and bring back the privateers in order to make it look like a proper race again, and to give the class some sort of structure! | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Right now I'll take WSB over any other form of motorcycle racing. At least it's close. Not spread out all over the place like MotoGP or AMA SB. Did you see the finish of Assen's race #2? | ||
| Trojan |
It seesm that Chaz Davies & Neil Hodgson have voiced their concern over the changes as well now, with both trying to find ways out of the second of their two year contracts with their respective factories. Hodgson has even gone so far as to say he doesn't understand why any professional racer will want to race restriced 600's as a main class. Will the last man out please switch off the light? | ||
| Jaimec |
MotoGP is a LOT closer this year (so far) than it was last year. And I'm guessing we'll get a good idea of just how good Mladin is indirectly next year when the only man who's been capable of beating him jumps to MotoGP... | ||
| Davegess |
Matt, The new guys are trying to repeat the NASCAR story in AMA racing. With very rare exceptions every car, and truck, in NASCAR's top three divisions are running under corporate banners. It took 30 years to get to this point so i don't know how quickly they can get MC racing to that point. My take is that DMG is operating under three assumptions. First is that the current setup, in the USA, is driven by the manufacturers and is tied into their marketing programs for selling sportbikes. I don't think you can argue with that; that is pretty obviously what is happening. Second would be that the spectator base both at track and on TV I s pretty narrow, with only a tiny percentage of motorcycles paying any attention. The NASCAR model says that you can attract fans to the track and to the TV broadcast who have no interest in automobiles, they just like racing. I would bet that most NASCAR fans couldn’t tell an IRS from a fuel injector but they can tell you about how making a car too loose is a bad thing. I don’t think this is true for most any other form of motorsport. Every other type draws on car or bike nuts as the primary audience. For MC racing in Europe and the far east this pool is very large but here in the US it is tiny and as a result motorcycle racing is tiny. Third, there is some interest in MC racing being expressed by non motorcycle sponsors but this is stifled by ones inability to field a competitive team in the top classes. Ask Michael Jordan, he has tried to buy a competitive Superbike and they are simply not for sale. He has the ability, via sponsors and his own rather deep pockets, to pay almost any price but has been told "you can't afford it". I think DMG wants to tap into the bigger audience and sign up the non manufacturer sponsors. To do this they need to break the stranglehold the manufacturers have on the sport. BSB and WSBK have been able to attract some outside support but nothing like NASCAR does. NASCAR has been able to give up tobacco money and still get bigger. They are hitting a rough patch lately and they may have peaked BUT they are atill doing very well. Blake, AMA prize money is low BUT all the top guys could care less they get big bucks from the manufacturers as employees. I thin that is what matt means when he talks about the cash. Matt, my take is that DMG has a vision of MC road racing in the USA that is a much bigger sport than it is now and they are willing to break a few eggs to try and make that omelet. Only time will tell if they are correct. Me I can live without another big time sport and will keep going to the dirt track races, I like sitting by the pool at the motel sharing beer and a laugh with a National Champion (a regular joe can doe this at places like Springfield and DuQuoin) than standing in line at an autograph signing just so he can mumble something at me. I much prefer the days when riders were regular guys with a unique talent and drive not international superstars who are besieged by fans and have to avoid them to survive. | ||
| Trojan |
Matt, my take is that DMG has a vision of MC road racing in the USA that is a much bigger sport than it is now and they are willing to break a few eggs to try and make that omelet. Only time will tell if they are correct. That is just the way I see it myself, althogh I beleive they have underestimated the rider's/teams if they think they can impose restrictions. Most top level riders will not be happy racing in a 'spectator friendly' but undemanding restricted 600 class, so DMG will be left with the second string riders as the top billing. Maybe in time it will pick up, or spectators will forget how good the riders used to be in the old days. What I do know is that you don't necessarily get close racing just by restricting rules. Take a look at FX and you'll see it is dominated by Honda with Kawasaki a distant second and the rest really nowhere. Like you say, only time will tell. | ||
| Davegess |
Right now there are more top talented riders than rides. Davies is a good example as are the guys on Jordan's team. The top bikes would not be as trick if the factories did not run, and those FX bikes are very trick-that palying field is not real level, BUT the young, hungry, talented guys right below the 6-10 factory riders would really put on a show. I do think the MJ is behind the scenes on this whole deal. He has said he has sponsor who would jump in IF they could back a team with a cahnge to win. Right now you can't win if the factory won't give you a bike. If yo have to buy them you are running for 7th place and people like Nike don't run for 7th. | ||
| 46champ |
How many XBRR's are left in the country to race in this new version of FX? Or is a destroked 1125 in order by my calculations that would be an approx 2 inch stroke. Is that a more viable race bike? | ||
| Blake |
"Now maybe I am missing something here, but where does that leave the guy who saves his wages to race at the weekend for a little prize money of he is lucky?" The same place as all other such athletes who are unable to gain a position on a top professional team; if they want to compete, they do so within any of the lower level organizations. I think the better solution might be to tighten the qualifying envelope from 108% or 110%, whatever it is, to 104%. Dave, I think Matt is actually thinking that AMA prize money is significant. Matt, I don't think it's reasonable to draw lessons learned from BSB for application to AMA racing. We may have a few more fans and a bit larger sport bike market in North America and including some of South America too compared to the British market. The ability to promote motorcycle racing in front of their NASCAR audience is a HUGE factor for DMG. The ability to tie provisions for motorcycle racing coverage into their NASCAR television contracts would be HUGE. Motorcycle Roadracing is on the verge of a major popularity rise in America. The proof of which is in all the new tracks and track day events that are popping up all over the country. DMG may have hit the proverbial jackpot. Frankly, it's a joke that WSB deems itself a "World Championship" when all but a meager few races are in Europe and with none or just one in the entirety of the Americas, and none in Japan this year. Don't be surprised when the new AMA grows to rival and surpass WSB in stature. | ||
| Rocketsprink |
"Frankly, it's a joke that WSB deems itself a "World Championship" when all but a meager few races are in Europe and with none or just one in the entirety of the Americas, and none in Japan this year." Sorry Blake, but Major League Baseball calls it the World Series, but last time I checked, there were more countries than the U.S.A and Canada.  | ||
| Trac95ker |
Is DMG in support of traction and wheelie control? IMO thats what makes racing exciting. If they are trying to attract a larger audience, I would think bikes on the edge of control sliding all over the place would be key. I think Rossi or Hayden would be on top if there was no traction control. | ||
| Davegess |
Major League Baseball calls it the World Series, Yeah but the best players from around the world play here. | ||
| Blake |
Major league baseball's "World" series is inappropriately named as well. The World Cup is accurate. | ||
| Trojan |
Don't be surprised when the new AMA grows to rival and surpass WSB in stature. Funnily enough, I think if the AMA had continued with the current structure then it would certainly have become the biggest major rival to WSB, with more top level foreign riders taking up contracts to race in the US than ever before. Unfortunately the proposed new structure may be attractive to promoters and even sponsors (although the lack of top flight machinery and riders may put a lot of motorcycle related sponsors off completely), but it is not attractive to riders and teams. Where does that leave DMG when they have no world class riders in their premier series? Until very recently, Nascar was the preserve of southern 'Good Old Boys' and was seen as a minority sport in the US, and it's rise to the number one motorsport TV spectacle has been quite astonishing. The idea of turning bike racing into a similar spectacle is great, but the way they are doing it is way off the mark, and will make the premier road racing class in the USA into nothingmore than a glorified club race. The current proposed rules also don't take any account of the Japanese and European factory policy or wishes, which is an incredibly arrogant attitude. Without them any Superbike class is pretty meaningless. Can you see Ducati, KTM, BMW etc building a bike specifically for the DMG series? No they won't, they will concentrate all of their efforts and money on WSB. Maybe DMG think that Harley or Buell will come to the rescue, and like NASCAR everyone will ride an American manufactured bike? What should they do? They should adopt exactly the same rules (including tyre supliers) as WSB, and that way they will not only attract more top flight foreign riders, but will be able to get US riders straight into the world series on competitive bikes. I also believe that this is what BSB should be doing too by the way, so I am just not having a pop at the AMA. By all means have some varied and even weird support races such as 'Daytona Superbike' (nothing super in a power/weight restricted 600 though), Rookie cup (a good thing!) or Triumph/BMW/KTM Challenge, but keep the Superbikes as the premier class. Sharing the same rule structure worldwide means that there is a simple and well defined career path for world class riders, whilst giving all of the separate domestic superbike series a common set of rules to develop machines. It also means that the factories only have to develop one version of their Superbike contenders, rather than a separate version for AMA,WSB,BSB etc. This will mean that it becomes cheaper to develop the bikes and the factories, and is one of the major reasons that factories don't enter full teams in all of the domestic series. This will make them more likely to enter bikes (and riders) in a variety of domestic and world level series, which will only be good for the sport. You may even see teams doing more than one championship where dates don't clash and sponsors wish it to happen, and wouldn't it be great to see Biaggi, Xaus or Bayliss turn up for a round of the domestic series At present the AMA is on a crash course to isolationism, and that is never good for any sport (even baseball ) (Message edited by trojan on May 01, 2008) | ||
| Trac95ker |
Trojan, well said. I like the idea of promoting endurance racing. Thats another aspect of racing that should get attention. When it comes to superbike I agree with having similar bikes and rules to promote harmony and competition around the world. I believe that it would benefit manufacturers and like you said riders and teams racing in different series. | ||
| Davegess |
I don't think the World Series in misnamed. ALL the top players from around the world are playing on MLB teams. The only top guys missing can't escape from Cuba and that is gonna change soon. |
