| Author | Message | ||
     Doerman |
That's easy! It is to compensate for the coriolis effect. | ||
| Court |
>>>I am afraid that it will take a sad result to get this problem corrected... What do you base your belief on? | ||
| Hayabusa |
I base on the fact that I was told that boiling fuel was not a problem. So my rationale is that it won't become a concern until someone pushes some fuel onto a hot muffler and starts a fire. I like my bike and I have no desire to turn it into an ash tray. All I wanted was Buell to tell me that they have a fix for the problem...because it is a problem. They won't even admit that it is an issue. They told me they know that the bikes boil fuel and that it is totally safe. My gut says that isn't the case... | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Have you ever seen a flight of Geese, you know that classic "V" formation? Ever wondered why the legs of the "V" are never the same length? I'll just bet that at least 1 or 2 Buell Engineers have wondered the same thing. After that brief time of wondering, they went on to important issues. That's the exact attitude that is pissing off customers. Okay let me rephrase. One would think even if the boiling fuel it is "safe," Buell would investigate the cause as the affected owners have safety concerns. Or Buell can dismiss the concerns and blow off the people who just dropped $12K on its flagship model. Again, here is where a simple "we are working on it" would go a long way. | ||
| Bueller_bjorn |
So who wants to blow up their bike to make a point and have them look at the issue, any takers? thats why i said screw it i reported to the dealer and then fixed it myself with some heat tape and header wrap | ||
| Blake |
Perception and reality are not always the same. There are some blatantly erroneous misconceptions being proffered here. I'll try to dispell some of the myths and concerns as best I can based on what I know to be fact. The truth is that boiling fuel inside a fuel tank is not a danger in and of itself. I've heard it happening inside the fuel tank of my Buell Cyclone. Some common formulations of gasoline include constituent hydrocarbons that will begin to boil off at as low as 80oF. The gasoline formulations for Wintertime or cool weather include more of those more volatile hydrocarbons than Summertime or warm weather formulations. A hot muffler will not ignite gasoline. Gasoline requires an ignition source, either a spark or flame or a hot enough source to heat the gasoline to over 500oF in order to instigate combustion. No Buell 1125R motorcycle muffler is getting anywhere near hot enough to ignite gasoline. What IS problematic is if your fuel tank vent is faulty and not allowing excess pressure to escape. That is it. Neil (Ccryder). I wonder if I could have said it any more perfectly. Nope, I don't think so. Excelent! Thanks for opposing the baloney that some see fit to relentlessly subject upon the board. | ||
| Jpfive |
Blake, The frame on my Long got pretty hot also. I never looked for boiling fuel on that bike, so can't speak to the problem there. I do know that I never would have noticed boiling fuel on my 11 either if I hadn't seen it discussed here. Now that I've seen it, I don't see it as a big deal. As others have posted - on this thread and others - boiling fuel is mentioned as an 'issue' on other forums and other bikes. I agree with your assessment that it is not the cause for concern that some have been making it. Apparently, Buell's engineers are of the same opinion. Seems that there is always plenty to fret about with a new bike - looking for it to settle down, myself. I love my bike! Jack | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Hey Blake. Now that is good information. Why can't Buell issue a Bulletin that says something to that fact? Alternatively, Buell can just tell owners that boiling gas is not a problem (without an explanation) and let the speculation continue. this still doesn't answer the reason why only some bikes boil gas or address the overwhelming fumes that result. | ||
| Jpfive |
I suspect that they all will boil under the same conditions. I also suspect that most owners won't notice it - as I didn't, until my attention was focused on it. I'll say it again, I just don't think this is something to worry about. Jack | ||
| Court |
I suspect it has more to do with pressure than temperature. The same way that shaving cream boils the moment you hit the value and allow the pressure to decrease. I'd be willing to bet the folks at Buell are likely aware of this. No company, as those of us who have owned and run businesses know, would never issue a statement based on less than fact. To date, virtually everything we know about this is strictly anecdotal and I'll bet folks at Buell have or will address it in a more empirical manner. It will likely be found to not be a problem or a fix will be proffered. You can bet if it were of immediate concern we'd have heard about it. The bikes were run HUNDREDS of thousands of miles during testing protocols. This may be one of those "can only happen in the hands of a consumer on a public road" issues (I've seen some dandy things over the years that have NEVER appeared in testing and promptly appear on the road). It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. | ||
| Hayabusa |
Blake- That is the kind of answer I was hoping that I would get from Buell. Explain to me why it happens and then explain why I shouldn't be concerned. Most of us are motorheads and get the in's and out's of bikes. For 12K we all deserve answers to our concerns. Thank you for helping out. | ||
| Doerman |
I suspect that they all will boil under the same conditions. Hmm.. The only time I had problems was when the front O2 sensor malfunctioned. Pressurized tank and all sorts of fun. Other than that, mine seems to have not exhibited the problem(s) - smell and boiling. Although, it could have been boiling in there and I would not have known it (or cared much). Thousands and thousands of miles of testing. That is very true. However the testing also revealed a tendency to roast your right foot. On the production bikes, that was remedied by a sculpted plastic shield in the lower right frame area reducing the heat to your foot, but possibly increasing frame temps. That late change didn't get as much testing I suppose. +1 on JP.. I ain't worried either. | ||
| Cataract2 |
Like I posted before. I wonder if some of these people with boiling issues is caused by a vent valve that is faulty where it opens to late. Kinda like a pressure cooker. Under pressure the fuel will boil sooner and at the point the vent opens. This is what it seems like to me. | ||
| Bueller_bjorn |
Just took a 45min ride on my lunch break fuel was boiling pretty good and i have more than a half tank left, when i took the cap off i had to apply pressure just to close the cap from all the fumes rushing out. The main reason i don't want it to boil is performance and fumes that fill my house enough to make me sick and on performance side hot gas is not as good as cool dense fuel | ||
| Fresnobuell |
Bjorn, what were your ambient and coolant temps? | ||
| Ccryder |
Ryan: PV=nRT: Pressure cookers allow the temp to rise because the pressure is higher and thus RAISES the temperature boiling starts. Why, oh why, do I have to venture back so far in my memory banks?????? Quick question, just because it quacks like a duck, does it mean that it is a duck? How do we know that what sounds like boiling is actually boiling. There are other things that sound like boiling that is not, boiling. If the pump is cavitating, that could also sound like boiling. My point is this is a complex system of mechanical devices, chemistry, thermodynamics and, physics that allows fuel to be transfered to the injectors. As any one of these aspects of this systems changes, things do happen. Some things don't matter and, some do. Almost Rocket Science. We are waiting on BMC to give "us" a decision, and maybe an explanation, of what we are experiencing. Too much fun for one afternoon (your are all lucky that I'm sitting in on a conference call that gives me this free time, I guess you would call it lucky ;+}) Later | ||
| Bueller_bjorn |
"Bjorn, what were your ambient and coolant temps?" ambient temp was 80, but its off by about b/c its around 73 outside coolant temp was 175-180 (Message edited by bueller_bjorn on April 25, 2008) | ||
| Fresnobuell |
ambient temp was 80, but its off by about b/c its around 73 outside coolant temp was 175-180 That's very interesting. I consider 175-180 running COOL. I have had it up to 210 with no apparent adverse affects (other than just toasty legs) and certainly no absurdly strong fumes. Something is up with either your 11 or the gasoline you are using. | ||
| Black9 |
I ,also have to wonder, is it really boiling fuel? I can't believe that a temp controlled bike ( Water cooled ) would have more of a tendecy than my 3 other XB's to boil gas in the frame...especially considering how close the jugs and exhaust are to the frame...yes the frame does get warm on all these bikes, but so hot that it boils gas? | ||
| Fresnobuell |
anyone measured the temp of the boiling gas? | ||
| Spatten1 |
I'd just measure the frame temp where it is hottest, Aluminum is a great heat conductor. | ||
| Bueller_bjorn |
Well my bike is #182 so it is an early one im running on 93 octane, it could be the ethanol they put in the gas here, my bike seems to be running fine just bubbling gas like crazy sometimes. ive told the dealer about it but nothing was done. when it does boil bad it hisses like crazy from the breather tube with fumes shooting out of it. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Don't smoke around your bike. | ||
| Black9 |
The boiling point of gasoline, according to a Google search is 100-400 f the biggest variance being a refiners additives to effect octane. | ||
| Dre99gsx |
Something will go down when a house explodes due to parking the bike in your garage while it fills the garage with fuel fumes, oh and your water heater/furnce is just a few feet away. Anyone willing to blow their house up? This is DEFINITELY a concern no matter how you view it. | ||
| Chevycummins |
I turned off my furnace in my garage because I thought it would ignite the fumes. A couple of years ago a mechanic here in town blew himself up with gas fumes. He had pulled out a fuel tank and his shop light fell, the bulb broke and now he lives 6ft under. Gas fumes are nothing to mess with! | ||
| Brad1445 |
look at the bright side, only 3% of you will blow up, thats a 97% chance you won't. Now stop causing trouble. | ||
| Slypiranna |
I can't keep quiet any longer...and I do know better than posting this...but here goes anyways...AND ONLY MY OPINION! Fuel boiling or even the fuel cell of any vehicle (frame of this one) very hot to the touch is NOT acceptable under any reason offered thus far. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN FACT "THOUGH" THAT HOT FUEL TEMPS AND OR ENGINE TEMPS (COMPARED TO WHAT IS COMMON PERCEIVED "NORMAL"  HELP IN EMISSION AND OR EMULSION/ATOMISATION IN THE INTAKE/COMBUSTION CHARGE/CYCLE. (Excessive fuel vapor VENTED TO THE ATMOSPHERE is a negative to our environment, ask EPA...in closing, I'm going to hug a tree...no, really  ) Yes, I agree that faulty vents make matters worse and should be corrected by a warranty issue but the actual heat MANAGEMENT/OR LACK OF is what WAS bothering me the most on my own 1125. First, it has been proven countless times that cooler fuel and or intake charge temps benefit combustion and power production per unit of fuel introduced. Why would cold air intakes, intercooling and drag race fuel cool cans/ice, ect be so common? Don't ask me, I don't have the time, search google...it is proven fact. With that being said and after carefully studying this "issue" on my own 11, I've concluded the following as fact and as MY PERSONAL fixes. While the designed airflow "path" through the frame seemingly works well at speed, say, FOR EXAMPLE, 55mph and above to keep everything within a reasonable temp zone...get down to in town traffic and or prolonged stop and go with above ambients in the 80'F range and howdy heat soak issues. The right hand side heat shield that was (pre purchase research material knowledge based, not fact) added prior to production release (because of test rider's complaints of hot right foot?) is blocking off some of that designed airflow path and or reflecting it back upon the frame/fuel cell at low speed? I think that answer is simple. The mere placement of the rear cylinder's exhaust primary tube work and the lack of insulating materials also lends itself to conduct heat into the frame/fuel cell at low vehicle speeds? Again, I think that answer is simple. So, with the primary designed in "issue" of heat management here, what are the solutions most easily targeted as tolerable and this issue resolved? 1...and most important (and what I did), is to install a true heat reflective barrier on the entire inside of the frame/fuel cell vertical areas. I'm not referring to a cheap ass barrier but the good stuff that we use on turbo charged and race oriented applications. It generally is comprised of a very high temp fiberglass based backing with a bright reflective, heat source facing cover...approx 3/32" thick total. Works wonders. Attachment? Simplest procedure would be a commercial quality contact cement. More elaborate methods are up to the individual. If you are going this route, DO THE ENTIRE INTERIOR STRUCTURE. 2...Ceramic coat primary tubes...although not a cure all and really not a recommended thing to do to 304 minimum grade s/s but will lower radiant heat non the less. Why did I write 304? These primaries appear near anti-magnetic and to the best of my experience base, 304 is the lowest commercial grade of acceptable anti-magnetic stainless alloys, that is why. That doesn't mean that they won't surface "rust" though! Again, google, as I don't have that time either. 3...And what I did...wrap the primary tube points (with proper race style header wrap) within the frame area at least. This again is not something that is a happy thing for the material in question as it will shorten the lifespan of the pipe under it. The above has been proven at least acceptable in living with these issues, if only radiant heat is the question. I'm sure there are others but these are the best that I've found and have since moved on to other areas of concern to be addressed. Bottom line here. Fuel vapor NOTICeABLY PRESENT DUE TO THE STRONG ODOR due to evaporation/boiling and being vented...within a confined area can ignite with an ignition source. I agree though that the exhaust system on a stock 1125r would not "likely" be that source of ignition...but I would not be the one to warranty such an accident as impossible to happen...would anyone else? I think not...but that is why the lawyer's make so much in litigation. Period. For factual proof of the above paragraph, research why some gaseous fuels...for example, PROPANE...have a distinct odor to them to detect BY SMELL...THAT odor IS ADDED PER REGULATION, a fragrant, NOT NATURAL AT ALL IN A PURE STATE! Read lawyers again. In closing, I apologize if I stepped in here rocking this "boat", I am ONLY trying to help those that might be very frustrated at this point in ownership and have the means to help themselves in the process...I feel that DOES help the overall BMC/1125R effort though and am not sorry for that, as I do love this creation. I can now hold my hands on the outside of MY 1125R and FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH THE FACT THAT THIS IS NO LONGER A WORRY OR A QUESTION TO FURTHER DISCUSS HERE OR ARGUE OTHERWISE. Ride safe and best of luck on your ownership experience. Montgomery Markel Please read this, proof it, respond to it HERE but I do NOT want PM's, messages related to. This is just my personal experience and FYI...use at your own risk. I already hugged that tree, nice and hard! Now I'm gonna go hug my Buell 1125R...she's COOLER! Finally, nuff said ...YOUR turn | ||
| Chevycummins |
Slypiranna, I could not agree more. That is why I also wrapped my exhaust and insulated the inside of my frame. As far as and ignition source to ignite gas fumes on the 1125R, I wonder if the bikes cooling fans could create sparks and ignite it if conditions were right? I don't know if they are a brushless design. | ||
| Brad1445 |
Slypiranna, GREAT post! |
