| Author | Message | ||
     Bob_thompson |
I asked this question before in some other thread so bear with me. I feel that no Buell engineer or representative will want to answer so for all you engineer types or anyone with actual experience here it goes: If, in fact, the 1125's DDFI III adjusts for different elevation changes, and I know it does very well, as I have gone from 4100 ft to 8000 and back in hours without a hitch, and we assume it adjusts for the less air flow through the engine, then it "should" conversely adjust for additional air flow also with different intake or add on muffler only systems retaining the O2 sensors. Lets here your thoughts and experiences. How about you guys with new D&D's and others? Many people just might want to enhance at least the sound of these already fine bikes. | ||
| Zac4mac |
Bob - mine did NOT adjust. I was in Texas for a week at sea level and had the same Adapt Fuel numbers there as at home(5000' elev). 94.5 F&R Z | ||
| Rainman1ne |
mine is running pretty lean with the D&D, i'm in texas too. | ||
| Ccryder |
Bob: The short answer is: EPA. The long answer is that there are many variables in an engine that will affect the mixture and subsequent combustion. With the stock set up, the ECM knows what is fixed and it is mapped accordingly. When your temp or altitude changes it can and does sense those changes and adjusts accordingly. Now you start changing the the exhaust and the intake the OEM map is not adequate for those variables. That is why you can add the best exhaust system and install it into a stock ECM system and.............. hmm you have lean and rich parts of the the RPM range where the power delivery and driveability are compromised. After a few hours on a dyno tweaking the fuel map and, a few hours riding and then tweaking the fuel map some more, you end up with a map that utilizes the new components strengths and weakness'. On my ST1300, with Staintunes and a K&N, I was able to get a slightly higher pressure fuel pressure regulator that fooled the ECM into running MUCH better. I was just fortunate that this was a viable fix since even Powercommander does not have a module that works with the ST1300. Anyway, time4Lunch Neil S. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Justin(Rainman1ne), how do you know? Plug reading F&R reading, as with Zac's, engine response, etc? Just wondering, with respect of course. Bob | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Good post Neil, makes perfect sense and I assume what most tuners do to optimize their engines efficiency. And as always Zac's adding positive notes. Zac, mine has responded fine here but I have not ventured to a lower elevation. Anonymous has said the ECM's contently adjust. Are you still OK with it? Thanks guys. | ||
| Pxl2562 |
Ccryder is right, there is a lot more that goes into the ecm's fuel calcs than just altitude. intuitively, if you ride to a higher altitude (decreased density), but the temperature is cooler (increased air density), then the air density may not have changed, resulting in no need for fuel adjustment. However, i'm not familiar with the DDFI III algorithms, but the temperature and barometric adjustments are usually coefficients that adjust values pulled from the mapped fuel table. Fuel learn values loop back around from O2 sensor feedback and modify a trim table. the trim table then modifies values from the mapped fuel table in parrallel with the temp, altitude, etc sensors. it is a constant learning process, however, the learning is limited by the range and gain of the fuel learn numbers. if they top/bottom out at a certain rpm/load point, the base fuel table needs to be changed. Again, i am not familiar with the particular algorithms of the DDFI III, but this is the adjustment method for most popular fuel injection computers. that is, until we start programming ecm's with fuzzy logic. ooohhhh, fun times ahead.... | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Three items I'm starting to see: 1. If the new exhaust is in fact freer flowing proper programming would be necessary. 2. Possibly, if you could somehow, maybe just by luck, equal the same back pressure as the stock unit you would probably be OK as far as leaness is concerned. Although each different system fabricated would have different needs as PXl2562 has alluded to and still make for some problematic fuel delivery somewhere in the rpm range. Back to #1 above. 3. Without any current power programmers out there for Buells we can still utilize Al's, from American Sport Bike's, ingenuity as he has done in the past. But Al is really busy and is still working on the DDFI system for an '08 Ulysses. Given time I'm fairly sure he'll have something for the 1125's. Conclusion as I see it: I'll be running my stock pipe for a while and enjoy a really strong runner even if its slightly quiet. What a sleeper as we used to say. Where am I going wrong? Bob | ||
| Ccryder |
Bob: I think you are going RIGHT. Until the ECM is decoded etc. it will be best to leave well enough alone or suffer some fueling issues. Being a "sleeper" is not all bad, especially when you have the stock HP & TQ on this m/c. For me, at least now, it's more motor and frame than I can easily use on the street. I try pressing those limits and one way or another I WILL end up in Trouble! :+} Later Neil S. | ||
| Slaughter |
Until you MEASURE combustion gas mix (air/fuel ratios) on each pipe - you are at best guessing. Even a single sniffer up the tailpipe only gets you 90% of what you're looking for. That being said, a dyno pull with a single sniffer is such cheap insurance against a too-lean condition that I'd say just do it. Dyno work gets expensive when you start TUNING on the dyno. 3 or 4 pulls at a few throttle positions will tell a HUGE story and probably cost you less than $100. You kinda need to look at Air/Fuel readings across a range of throttle and RPM settings to actually "see" what you have. It actually translates into a 3D graph if you get all the data. It's a lot of fun actually but a LOT OF TIME to do it right. Trust me, if you can find a good map for only $250 it's money well spent - though there just aren't many around for the 1125R (yet) I haven't yet played with the module on the 1125R but as I understand, the dealer should have a diagnostic box/computer that CAN re-work the map... the problem is that it MAY mean an EPA fine for the dealer (up to $10K per incident)... which also means that the aftermarket is already very likely to be working on it... we'll see. | ||
| Slaughter |
And yes - just yesterday visiting Glendale, I looked at the dyno results on a modified exhaust (sweeeeet sounding) with just the intake mods. Showed about a 15HP increase, FLAT torque curve and good power delivery (straight line up to 10,000). It's not available through Glendale yet... have to figure out how to do it over the counter to non-licensed racers without incurring the wrath of EPA or CAL-EPA. The really good thing was that the exhaust gas tracked perfect. Keep in mind, this was at one throttle setting (nearly WFO - a bit more than 80%). You'd need at least a few more pulls to see how it'd do across the range of throttle positions. One more thing - this was on a motor with a stock module. (Message edited by slaughter on April 16, 2008) | ||
| Slaughter |
Oh and if you think dyno work is expensive, try melting a piston! | ||
| Odinbueller |
Any time you change intake, exhaust, or both, you absolutely need to tune the bike to match those components. Nothing has been published on this thus far, and I am basing the following on my experience with dyno tuning in the past. Since DDFI III on the 1125R incorporates a Manifold Absolute Pressure AND a Barometric Pressure sensor, this makes this EFI system a Speed/Density system. With all speed/density systems, the first reference table in the ECM is the Desired Air/Fuel ratio table, showing what the air/fuel ratio should be based on MAP load and engine speed, hence the speed/density label. Next are volumetric effeciency tables for front & rear cylinders, spark timing front & rear, accel enrichment, decel enleanment, idle speed based on ET sensor feedback, cranking fuel, etc. Since there's a baro sensor, this allows for finite correction of the air/fuel ratio based on the previous lookup tables. There's also the adaptive fuel value that globally adjusts the VE table in closed loop operation based on the richness or leanness of the air/fuell ratio. Keep in mind, in closed loop operation, the ECM is, by default, looking for stoichiometric combustion at 14.6 to 1. Looking at the desired air/fuel table, the 14.6 to 1 cells could be changed, and then you are no longer utilizing the O2 sensors for feedback. You are now running primarily on the VE & timing tables. Once I get my hands on the Buell race DDFI ECM & tuning software, I'll clarify with actual reference tables. Chris | ||
| Xb9 |
"dyno results on a modified exhaust (sweeeeet sounding) with just the intake mods." Slaughter, Is that a modified STOCK exhaust? What do you mean by just the intake mods? Haven't you succumbed and bought one yet?  dave | ||
| Xb9 |
today I was riding home from work and I kept thinking "This thing is just soooo f'ing sick for the road". I got pulled over once already with it, and luckily got off with a warning. about a 1/2 mile before he clocked me I was doing a buck thirty...whew... the thing sound better and better with more mileage..more thumpy now at idle when it's warming up....this thing is just bad ass & too much fun! I don't need more noise or power for a while, it's staying stock. | ||
| Slaughter |
Dave, I have to let Glendale do the announcing. Liability and potential EPA fines are really huge out here in CA. I can see them selling IF they can convince themselves that there's no liability exposure "IF" a purchaser bought a "race only" part and installed it on a streetbike. (I'm not saying that anybody would but just Don't ask me about my intake, ECU and Exhaust on my S3 streetbike!!!) Problem is that we're no longer going to see dealers selling NON-DOT and NON-EPA stuff. Bummer. Stamping "Race Only" on stuff is limited. (Look at what happened to Powercommander when they lost MILLIONS in the Cal-EPA lawsuit.) Keep in mind, each F$*#-ing violation is $10K - so a Pipe, ECU, Intake, cannister removal... is already up to $40K violation (if the dealer does it). The technical problems are far simpler to overcome than are the legal ones. I can't say much about the finer points of the exhaust but it is an exhaust which still has the cat in it - it MIGHT meet EPA but there will be NO testing. Still uses the headers and most of the can but has seen extensive mods. Short answer: it is based on the stock system, has been dyno-tested (power and air/fuel) and does sound sweet - and did not require a race module. As I understood it, the only mod to the intake was the removal of the box but I didn't get a look inside it. I'd say more but my last comments on an exhaust system really ended up sounding kinda crappy (actually contacted him off-line and all is good once again) ...and I can't afford the 1125R right now. I'm putting the XB back into racing form. Then the XB-Blast will be being built. We're buying Sunny her dirtbike next week. My dirtbike is a month after that. (we live in the Desert) My 1125R is still a year away. I'm still trying to retire before the year's out - so can't be TOO crazy... well... unless you call racing a couple different bikes after destroying them a few times crazy... Might just run Formula 50 next year and get some kid to do the racing for me like I did with Dixon 2 years ago when I was in the wheelchair. (Message edited by slaughter on April 16, 2008) | ||
| Slypiranna |
...there is a narrow window of fueling increase and decrease from the base map without altering, manipulating or modifying the pulsewidth...hence, tuner...or rewrite the root base map. I already know for sure that one is in use now by inside techs. No further comment there so please don't ask. BUT there is one that is being slated for the common market within 30 days, eta. Be patient...it will allow for fuel tuning ONLY across the rpm/load zones, NO ignition yet. From what I've gathered though, pertaining to the efi system on the 11...it is a combination of speed density and alpha n...not just one or the other...that is my opinion by the way. There is a map (manifold absolute pressure) sensor...which is in a separate portion of fueling +'s/-'s and should correct for altitude/barametric pressures...this sensor is right behind your airbox cover, just under the seat front lip, there is a green sealing o-ring right at the tip. This map sensor was most likely sourced from an entirely different application for the o-ring to be part of this deal and this is NOT uncommon for BMC/Rotax to do...seen the same on MANY auto applications over the years, from the factory. We are still dealing with a narrow window though, as delivered and that is what tuner/modders have been playing with for decades. Sometimes with a happy face in the end, sometimes just wondering why they didn't leave the damn thing well enough alone. Bottom line reality check, though kinda off topic, is that we are teetering on the line of warranty questions if one were to arise in the future and after the fact of what an unknown outcome would be? Its all fun until someone gets an eye put out! Be careful!...also be just a little more patient for the aftermarket and maybe even Buell to release proven goodies that you won't have to trial and error... p.s...wideband feedback readings have shown far leaner then stoic folks! This is for emission purposes, obviously. Final warning, be careful! | ||
| Xb9 |
thanks for elaborating on the exhaust, damn, 15 HP is sweeet. and I just like to raz you once in a while about your ability to restrain yourself on buying an 11r, all in fun I'm sure the wait will be worth it! | ||
| Rainman1ne |
"Justin(Rainman1ne), how do you know? Plug reading F&R reading, as with Zac's, engine response, etc? Just wondering, with respect of course." Because at night when riding with my buddies they can see my head pipes glow when we are screaming down the highway. (Message edited by rainman1ne on April 16, 2008) | ||
| Blake |
Red hot header pipes are definitive proof of lean running? I disagree. | ||
| Slypiranna |
+1 Blake | ||
| Bob_thompson |
This discussion has been really informative and I do not mean to drag this out too far guys but I did a search in the KV for power programmers and there was only six items and not much information. Has anybody with an XB model and DDFI II did a re-programming for accessory exhaust and what were your procedures and results? I seem to remember some things written and a few by Al at American Sport Bike doing just this; seems like with a laptop. Most people with XB's are running some kind of aftermarket exhaust but I do not believe a dealer would do a re-program because of EPA liabilities. Thanks again and then we can put this thread to sleep and enjoy the power of a well engineered stock unit. | ||
| Odinbueller |
 Hey Bob! Here's what we here at Liberty got from an XB12R, Pro-Series air cleaner, D&D slip on, and tuning via DirectLink. Granted, you do have to sign a waiver. Here's some info on pricing; http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/17143/353854.html?1208482486 Feel free to contact me for anyone interested. We're not up and running on DDFI III as of yet, but our suppliers are working on it. Chris (Message edited by odinbueller on April 18, 2008) | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Chris, without giving away trade secrets away can you explain a little about what Direct link is. Those are very respectable numbers above and reflect your company's knowledge. Always good to see a dyno graph in person and one that reflects a gain in torque and H.P. across the rpm range. Good job guys. We definitely need some people like you guys here in the great basin. I'll be waiting for some info on the 1125R. thanks much, Bob | ||
| Odinbueller |
Hey Bob! DirectLink is a USB hardware key that links between the motorcycle's ECM and the DirectLink software, kind of like the com box in the Screamin' Eagle Race Tuner. The hardware & software is through Techno Research, you can check them out at www.technoresearch.com. not really a trade secret, just a method of tuning Kimball ECMs. We've had some really good success with tuning DDFI I & II bikes, even bone stock ones. Also, keep in mind that that graph only shows WOT, we still tune for idle, startup, and cruising. This is a graph from my S3T;  This is my bone stock S3T with an OEM style K&N filter. I can tell you honestly that you feel the difference after being tuned. | ||
| Bob_thompson |
Beautiful   |
