| Author | Message | ||
     Mikej |
AnonyFenderQuestioner, There are federal D.O.T. regulations on rear fender/tire coverage. I don't know how closely Buell was tied to or strayed from the requirements on that extension. I looked into D.O.T. regulations years ago and decided to buy instead of build. | ||
| Josh |
Anonymouse: Ever seen a Duc Monster? They have a similar arrangement. (tho IMO it's even stranger). There should be a slew of aftermarket replacements for it or I'm sure you could do something on your own. You can modify bikes from stock ya know. Josh | ||
| Anonymous |
I'll admit I'm a little dumb (part of the reason I'm posting anonymous), but I need a bit more explanation. If the extension is required by DOT, can aftermarket manufacturers sell a simple replacement, or will it be something I have to do myself (and probably screw it up)? | ||
| Court |
Everyone's weighing in and I shall too, as soon as time permits. For the moment, the "nutshell" version of my thoughts.... Buell has done a FABULOUS thing with the XB9S. It appears to share nearly all parts and technology with the XB9R, this is gifted design and strategy. Buell is in a rebuilding phase, out to recapture consumer confidence and I see the XB9R and XB9S as valuable tools, viable products and gifted strategy. I suspect that both bikes share EXCELLENT build quality and the commonality of parts twinxt the two minimizes the number of balls in the air. The present is no time to be dealing with water cooling, new engines and multiple platforms. The XB9S is a great looking bike and it appears a great platform to spawn other fun toys. Court | ||
| Road_Thing |
Court: What's "homoogation" and does it belong on the "NC-17" page??  r-t | ||
| Jrh |
When might the S(i even like that!)be available at dealers to slobber on?I REALLY like everything about this Buell except the power.Im still not planning on buying one because of the modest power output(no,please understand im not trying to start an argument with any of you guys,just stating my opinion+frustration,i havent ridden the R yet,but 73-78hp is modest.Check out the 60-80mph top gear roll-ons in the latest Motorcyclist against the 600"hi revvers",+if you dont like what you see,definately dont look at the roll-on #s of the R1)Hell,i detest all the silly plastic fake roadracer bodywork on the import motorcycles but they do have the power.That latest Buell with its S1 minimalism just seems so right for me,its just the minimal power i cant understand.Oh well,maybe next year this incredible chassis gets the power it deserves. | ||
| Jrh |
Yah,like you just said Court,i do see that with the whole new chassis design, it no doubt is not a great time for them to be going nuts on a different engine design.If these things prove the reliability i hope they will,maybe then Buell will focus more on upping the power of the existing engine.I'm only asking for 100rwhp,not 150,maybe i better be saving my pennys for next years Buell "S"  | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Court, I respecfully disagree. You don't build your brand by alienating your greatest selling tool, your existing customers. The ones who where there before, DURING and after the RECALLS The ones who keep the BRAG clubs alive at the dealer level and show up to the National BRAG events. The ones that have to put up with the indiferent/hostile dealers to get parts or get work done on their bikes. The ones who are confused by a manufacturer going from 4 models down to 3 (and some would argue two models, really.) models that are SLOWER (in a straight line) that the bikes they are replacing! The ones who bought more M2s than X1s and now find themselves without a logical upgrade. They don't want Fuel Injection, and want a little more "all aroundness" in their bikes. Those who bought a Blast, but are too short/small to be comfortable on the XB's The ones who bought S3s and put MILES AND MILES on them going to work every day, go on long trips with their significant other, and are now looking for a little more power, improved passenger comfort, and STONE COLD RELIABILITY. X framers are now becoming the old timers, like HD Evo owners. S2 and before owners are like the cranky shovelhead owners (See no XB, Hear no XB)! But now both S2, S3 and M2 owners are in the same boat: Stay with what you got, or go somewhere else. "Word of mouth" from happy owners is worth more than TV/Magazine advertising or sponsoring a racing class and creating bikes that you don't sell to your customers, and STILL not winning the championship! My view from the Cheap Seats. Everyone is free to disagree, unless you're too much of a coward to post with your real name, not anonymously. | ||
| Thunderbolt |
Not a good time for a new engine? why not? they're 'too busy' with the new chasis? Bull Sh!t! KTM, a small manufacturer, can launch a totally new bike with a totally awesome new engine...triumph makes less bikes than Buell and they have a 150hp monster engine in their bike. i think the problem (if you think a 92hp engine in a sport bike is a problem) lies with Erik Buell. He is, and always has been, a chassis guy. And I think the firebolt is great for what it is. BUT, Buell Motorcycle company will either realize that most sportbike customers look at HP before anything else or they'll go out of business. Think about it--Buell's most powerful bike for 2003 is DOWN 10hp compared to their most powerful of 2002! AND, the X1 was already down 20~50 hp on the competition. The S is cool, but it's certainly not 'All New' like they are marketing it. it's the same god damn girl in a different outfit. big dissapointment.  | ||
| X1glider |
Wow! Just got on and saw the bike! Awesome! I want one. Where's the race kit tho? Good work editing the pics everyone. I absolutely love the all black one. It is after all, the only color a bad ass bike should be. This is what I've been waiting for. Too bad I've already got a pretty new X1 to pay for and is stripped down to race. Higher bars and lower pegs? Not on this bike, buddy. An aggressive looking bike like the S needs the lower bar/clamp combo that the R has and higher pegs. If the geometry is the same, this is the bike to race, not the R. Yep, that extension is ugly but I do see the necessity for it. There is a regulation on fender coverage and where the tail lights and license plate are located. Even racing dictates fender coverage. As far as frame durability goes. The are pics posted here of the XB9R race bikes from Hal's or Tilley's or wherever that show dents in the frame/tank. How that effects frame alignment and fuel capacity, I don't know, but it is an issue that I can see needs dealing with. Buell, put slider bosses on there, please! And when is everyone gonna get over a "BRAND NEW" engine? Get over it, it ain't gonna happen soon. There is too much time and money invested in this design, from the standpoint of engineering and manufacturing. They haven't had an opportunity to make their money back yet on it. When the design pays for itself and they make a profit off of it, only then will a new design become available to us. They're not in the business to lose money. Anyone who designs things for a living will understand this. If you don't like this fact, too damn bad. Just accept it and get over it. Excellent work by Buell. Some would say there's not enough changes between the R and S. In their defense, A platform that shares 85% and up common parts allows for stricter quality control, higher profit margin and lower costs to the consumer. This is a very good thing. The larger profit will allow them to dedicate more R & D resources to build better bikes in the future and keep them afloat when times are tough. If you don't think this is true, then how do you think HD got to be so big? The only reason Honda sells more bikes, is because HD doesn't sell dirt bikes and ATVs. This platform idealism will allow Buell to grow as well. I can picture the ricers converting now. | ||
| Mikej |
X1, You sat on the "S" model? Where? | ||
| X1glider |
Actually, you build your brand by grabbing and stealing away "new" customers. A simple observation from being on this board the past few months has lead me to believe that Buell probably doesn't make that much money off of the typical Buell owner or Badwebber. Most do their own work, buy aftermarket products instead of OEM, and the rest are a bunch of whiney cheap asses who (edited by Court) jury rig their bikes to death because they don't want to shell out the dough to do things right the first time, only to find out they have to shell out more dough to do it right later on. Plus, how many of us actually tell others their bikes are crap and the need to convert to Buell and are successful at it? New customers are what Buell needs. If they can keep their existing ones, that's even better. The new lineup looks set do just that. I'm sure a replacement for the M2 and S3/T is in the works. Have patience. It just made better financial sense to release a bike that was similar but different in a short time span rather than wait a much longer time for a totally different new bike. | ||
| X1glider |
Mike: I never sat said I sat on one. A previous poster mentioned that the pegs should be lower and have higher bars on the XB. Oh. Unless you are referring to me saying "just got on." I should have said just "logged on." | ||
| Mikej |
Oh well, thought maybe they were hitting the dealerships already. This is a critical year, be interesting to get actual numbers of sales vs years past. | ||
| Warp2 |
I hear it will be available in November. | ||
| Court |
Egads Jose' . . . you make me want to close my office door and start writing. I'd not disagree with you very adamantly, from the perspective of a Buell owner. Like kids love their snuggly teddy bears, Buell owners loved to feel loved. However, empirical data, in terms of the corporate perspective might well lead to a very different conclusion. See July 2002 Harvard Business Review <<www.hbr.com>> articles: Recalculating the Loyalty/Profitability Equation and The Mismanagement of Customer Loyalty) I'll be brief....AS IF ! The Buell Customers who will ever been alienated, have likely already been alienated and are gone. It is essential for Buell to expand, both geographically, demographically and in sheer numbers their market. They must "capture" a greater share of existing riders as well as this new "streetfighter" breed they are developing within the ranks. Buells knows well the matrix that describes the relationships between customer loyalty and the costs of keeping various customers. Some customers, although very "loyal" are better off being "spun" to a different brand. The items you mention, ability to accomadate shorter riders (technically, I now understand, "vertically challenged"  ), B.R.A.G., weathering the recall storm, ad infinitum, while all big things to us . . . well, we are staying. Some will go, but those represented in this electronic venue tend to the most loyal of the loyal and the least likely to leave. The very fact that we come here to SOLVE those problems we have and exhibit, a quite amazing to be candid, capacity for "helping ourselves" puts us IN the Buell camp. I've been here since 1987, I'll be here for a long time. Why would Buell invest one plug nickel in "customer retention". Fact is, most of us here, will be here. To really appreciate the concept, you need to hear the story of the day I was sitting at the Buell factory and the irate customer called from Dudley Perkins in San Francisco. The guy was major pissed. So pissed in fact, that he (as a helicopter transport pilot) was threatening to dangle lemons from his Yellow 1996 S-1 and dangle it over crowded venues.....GREAT, I replied, get me times and dates. Frankly, bad publicity is greater than none. You're right, in that more power and many of the things that we, here in this forum, demand will go far to retain and attract new customers. That, in this spec driven business, is a given. But, stop at the Rock Store, the Blue Ridge Parkway or any moto-venue and ask the common Bandit 1200 rider what their perception of Buell is? See my point? Buell MUST go with a common platform, adopt and adhere to manufacturing quality control processes (wanna guess how may torqued connections there are in an XB unit as compared to the tube framers?) and decrease warranty dollar per unit costs. Buell HAS loyalty among the hardcore, they simply exist, worldwide, in insufficient quantity to make the business MC:MR model work. But.....motorcycle sales are increasing at present. Buell knows this and is elevating the product offerings and quality, simultaneously with support systems, to go after the "you know, Buell really seems to be getting iti together crowd". The rising tide will carry us all with it. If Buell builds a perfect motorcycle, don't look for Aaron Wilson to sell his dyno. I'm thrilled with the new offerings. Buell is doing something that is technincally on the cutting edge and at the same time maintaining crossline parts interchagability to minimize inventory, training and service costs. Power (this ought to open the can of worms) is the single easiest hill a motorcycle manufacturer ever climbs. Do the bike right first, then improve it. A most interesting dialouge that I assure you is being carefully read on Juneau. Court | ||
| Jdbuellx1 |
I think there is more to look at than just power, look at the weight difference, correct me if I'm wrong but there is close to a hundred pounds less on the XB's compared to the tube frame bikes. Take a hundred pounds off an X1 and take ten HP away and I bet you would think it had more power. Buell doesn't want to be a straight line powerhouse, he wants to win on the turns, hence shorter wheel base and lighter bike, an under powered great handling bike will prevail over an over powered heavy bike that won't turn on the track. Justin | ||
| Davegess |
As far as power, I have yet to open up my XB as I only have 600 miles on it, Darn kid I never get a weekend off to go riding , BUT it feels hugely more powerful than my stock 1999 M2 felt. AND I have only just touched the bottom end of the power curve. Gentlemen ( and ladies) when you whack the throttle open on this thing at 3000 rpm the SOB hits very very hard. It wants to yank you off the bike. I don't know how the numbers compare but in terms of how it feels i the real world. HOLY S H I T BATMAN this thing is fast. | ||
| Anonymous |
A couple of points: stock XB9S and X1 straightline performance are essentially identical, and the 9S will flat kick ass on a X1 on a twisty road. Two, the footpegs are an inch lower of the 9S than the 9R, and are a very easy and inexpensive retrofit if you're interested. | ||
| Mikej |
There's a world of difference between paper and asphalt. | ||
| Court |
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| José_Quiñones |
I have heard it called the UN-Bike: UNderpowered, UNreliable, UNcompetitive price wise.......... I have heard much worse comments at the racing events where the PRO THUNDER bikes were racing. I hope the new bikes change the UNRELIABLE perception, and the design is obviously geared to be simple to maintain and to work on. All signs so far point in a positive direction, except for some loud fuel pumps, clicking front brakes and melting chin spoilers....... Unfortunately the other two perceptions remain. The latest review in Motorcyclist ( where they basically dismiss the engine as a "lump" and call the bike "an oxymoron powered by an anachronism" ) unfortunately will do a lot to sway the "Maybe they got it right this time" crowd to stay away. The "SPEC BENCH RACER/Flavor of the Week" crowd is still not interested from the comments I have heard at the tracks and the bike shows. This crowd only cares about HP numbers, and it's also the YOUNG crowd that HD/Buell have been trying so hard to reel in.
I agree completely, do the bike right first, then improve it. But don't leave M2/S3 owners hanging for a year if the XB9R/S don't "fit the bill" for them. Practically speaking, this might not be so bad, there are probably enough unsold M2's and S3's at some of the dealers I have visited recently that they might be on the showroom floor till next year anyway. Power, EPA legal showroom stock power out of the XL engine? If it was easy they would have done it already. They can listen now, or be ready for an earful at the POCONO BRAG rally, August 23-25. Are you coming to the Rally, Court? | ||
| Davegess |
Fender, license plate is purely a regulation. The NHTSA as well as the European equivalent have very specific requirements have to do with controlling stuff flying off the tire as well as plate visibility etc. These sorts of regs have gottne better over the years. when they first cam out they dictated what you had to do and how you had to do it, now many of them dictate what the performance has to be but not how you get this to happen. Aftermarket stuff does not need to meet these. In the US your bike may be illegal if you install this stuff but since no one really checks it is not a problem. In Germany the cops check and can confiscate your bike!!! Dave | ||
| Hans |
José, Agreed wholeheartedly. And then comes Court, making me think: Hurray, hurray for Buell, away with me and my low level selfish thoughts. Hans | ||
| Eeeeek |
Still isn't the bike for me and, I fear, it's too narrowly focused. Vik | ||
| Reepicheep |
Instead of comparing the XB's to the tube framed Buells, better to compare them with the SV-650... the stock dyno charts can just about be overlayed and identical, as well as the weight, and even to a large degree the purpose of the bikes (very sporty standard style bike). The SV wins hands down on price. The XB wins on performance (power is roughly equal, handling and just about everything else the XB is better). The XB wins (easily) on character. The XB is also FAR more interesting (fuel in frame, perimiter brakes, oil in swingarm, color molded plastic, sounds great, etc... etc...). Don't get me wrong, the SV is an outstanding bike, and clearly wins for bang for the buck. That being said, I could (at $5000) go out and get a new SV tomorrow with no problem, but I have no interest in doing so at all. I could, but don't want to. There is no way I can justify a $10,000 bike right now, but I sat here for at least 30 minutes this morning staring at those photoshop chopped XB9S's trying to figure a way to make it work, and thinkiing if I could bear to part with my Cyclone. I can't, but want to. I don't think it is inappropriate to think of the Buells as exotics, in which case they are a screaming bargin, and write the rules for their own niche (ala sportfighter). If you simply want to value performance, then you are NEVER going to beat a GSX-R1000, especially in bang for the buck. Personally, I'm glad Buell is not even trying, there are plenty of other makers that are, are doing a decent job, and are making bikes that are not of the least interest to me. Even the VStrom, which is the bike I was begging Suzuki to make, when it actually became a reality, just didn't do it for me. Were Buell to drop the TL-1000 engine (or Duke, or whatever) in a tube frame tomorrow, I would probably be tempted to pick one up, but upon riding I suspect I would end up looking back wistfully and missing my 45 degree pushrod aircooled engine from my Cyclone, regardless of how much more reliable and powerful the TL engine may be. The XB bikes do an incredible job of filling a very compelling niche, all while keeping most (but not all) of the positive aspects of the very rich character of the bikes while eliminating most (but not all) of the liabilities. Frankly, I think bikes that are too refined are dull... and I welcome a level of quirkiness. Do I think $10,000 is to much for these bikes? Sure, in theory, but if the Cyclone were stolen tomorrow, I would find a way to get the money together and get myself the XB9S, and keep the bike forever and never look back in regret at the money spent. So I guess maybe its not overpriced after all, it's just expensive (if that makes any sense). I respect other peoples opinion and wishes for where Buell would go, but as I don't race bikes, I don't want or care about racing bikes. I ride on the street, and want and care about street bikes, and the XB9s looks to be the most compelling production streetbike I have ever seen. | ||
| Court |
>>>Power, EPA legal showroom stock power out of the XL engine? If it was easy they would have done it already. My guess is, that like the frame and chassis, Buell will do LOTS of homework as they look at the power question. In fact, I'd guess they are hard at work on this, presently. Fact is, the current XB is an "appropriate package" with the various components well matched. At least as far as I am concerned, I have little interest (my riding partner has LOTS though)in a 159HP showroom street bike. I like to do lots of things with a motorcycle, few have to do with going 170mph in New York City. Pocono, eh? Brings back great memories of 103 Buells rumbling through Jim Thorpe, PA in 1996. I've got a feeling that were I to show I'd need body guards....twinxt you and the HD folks  . | ||
| Duck |
X1glider, Quote deleted by Court Canfield No offense intended!?!!?! Don't know another term for it ? Open up a freaking dictionary. I'm sick to my stomach reading your post so I guess I'm offended.......whether you intended it or not) Disgusting. You should be completely embarassed. I am and I didn't post that crap. Duck | ||
| Davegess |
Duck, same here. Jury rigged comes to mind. I am not real PC but the N word pretty much sets me off. Dave | ||
| Mikej |
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