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Dio
| | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 11:07 pm: | 
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This post from advrider is from August of 2007. Shouldn't there have been something from Buell by now? |
M_singer
| | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 01:00 pm: |
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I hope this is handled better then the Firebolt headlight fiasco! |
Bails
| | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 04:16 pm: |
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Well I went to the local dealer today asking for warranty replacement of the damaged parts. I have spacer damage as seen in the shots, as well as rear wheel casting damage. This dealer said he had not had this issue before, did say that they hadn't sold many XB12X's. I asked if they could just order the stuff based on the Photos I had, but no they want to pull down, which is OK by me.
One thing, I could not loosen the torque bolts on the rear rotor side, broke my tool and I did not want to try too hard on the borrowed tool from the garage I was at. Has anyone found a better way to get these loose ? I thought of a little heat but was unsure of implications, would have used if I didn't solve another way. |
Dio
| | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 08:37 pm: |
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The threadlocker used from the factory is some tough stuff. I have used an air impact wrench with a premium driver ( snap-on, matco, or mac) with good results. Make sure you have the driver fully seated in the bolt head and keep it straight. If it slips at all it's toast, and will have to be drilled out. Not sure about using heat, as damage to finished surfaces is likely, since it takes quite a bit to do any good. Hope this helps. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 09:02 pm: |
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On this forum over the last two years I have only heard of about ten or twelve actual rear bearing failures on the rear of the Ulysses. I have heard at least sixty really concerned owners that are worried about them and several of us who have just decided it is a part of normal maintenance to inspect and lube them.
If there are more non overlapping complaints on ADV's site it is probably about the same ratio.
It seems to be a bigger concern than it is an actual problem(sure mine didn't fail on a trail in Alaska). In reality mine haven't failed, the guys that I ride with haven't had a failure. I have inspected and re-greased mine and one of theirs.
I think that a part of the problem can also be attributed to load and its distribution. With all three HB bags I would have to guess that 85% of my load is on the rear tire 85% of the time.
But still, have there been any failures where there was not water involved causing rust or at least degradation of the grease? |
Bails
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 04:47 am: |
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But still, have there been any failures where there was not water involved causing rust or at least degradation of the grease?
Well my bike does not have Bags,as they are the ugliest bags you'll find, and I don't go off road and the bike is garaged. To be honest I did not expect the failure to occur with the way I kept my bike garaged, Australian conditions, sealed road use , no pressure washing, greased when rear tyre change at 3,ooo miles and so on. Personally I believe it is a design fault, I have never had this occur on the 20 other machines I've owned. I don't get so much bothered by what has happened but would like to know what the cause is so that I can maintain the machine to optimal efficiency. |
Xbimmer
| | Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 11:44 pm: |
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I have inspected and re-greased mine and one of theirs.
But still, have there been any failures where there was not water involved causing rust or at least degradation of the grease?
I would ask the same question, but it seems there aren't any common denominators here. Some fail with minimal presence of water, some (mine included) get deluged and are ok.
Some guys pull the bearings and watery crud pours out of the hub, I look at mine (I did again today, new Sync  ) and I can't see how water gets in there at all, or could in such volumes. But apparently it can sometimes.
If anybody who has been regreasing the bearings within the past year has a failure, that would open up a whole new can of worms. I just did mine the fourth time today, after a particularly wet couple of months of riding.
The seals at 45k can't be as pliable as they used to be, and I remove them like a surgeon, but things still look good in there and they spin smooth and snug. Ridden for two months in rain sometimes that soaked through "waterproof" Tourmaster, Olympia, and even Sidi On Roads!
Personally I believe it is a design fault, I have never had this occur on the 20 other machines I've owned. I don't get so much bothered by what has happened but would like to know what the cause is so that I can maintain the machine to optimal efficiency.
IMHO I don't consider it a fault so much as short sightedness, other than Taiwanese bearings in $10000+ bikes. I don't know whether Buell was ready for the conditions that Uly riders were going to put the bikes through and they expected that what worked ok on other XB's would suffice.
Until someone comes out with a genius retrofit gorilla-seal kit I'll keep inspecting and regreasing mine also. |
Bails
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 02:05 am: |
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IMHO I don't consider it a fault so much as short sightedness, other than Taiwanese bearings in $10000+ bikes. I don't know whether Buell was ready for the conditions that Uly riders were going to put the bikes through and they expected that what worked ok on other XB's would suffice.
What riding on sealed roads, what is so different about this type of use. I know blokes with Chinese bikes that have better millage without failure ! Any way Buel is going to replace my whole rear wheel, only problem in Australia it will be 6 week wait because they don't have any spare parts in stock !Lucky I have a reliable German bike to get me around. |
2_spuds
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 05:58 am: |
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I think one of the problems is that the bearings are too small for the weight of the bike.
For a comparison here is a pic of a rear bearing from my 03 sportster which weighed in @ 547lbs. wet, and my uly that weighed in @ 543 lbs. wet. [certified scale]
the sporty brgs. are almost double the size
of the uly's.
I also found that the aluminum spacer on mine would give .008 to .010 even at the factory torque settings, thus preloading
the bearings. Here's a pic of the test...
I wanted to machine the wheel to accept larger brgs. but there isn't enough meat in the hub to do so. pic...
I replaced the aluminum spacer with a steel one, and I change the bearings out with skf one's at every tire change.I'am on set# 6 or 7 now.
If they come out with a stronger bearing set up in 09 I'll be on one. It's a fun bike that just need's some sorting. |
Dio
| | Posted on Friday, March 14, 2008 - 10:42 pm: |
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I'm at a loss of where you are getting .008 to .010 preload as shown in the photo. The axle clamps both bearings between the swingarm, and the spacer determines the spacing of the inner races in the wheel hub. The test as shown neither proves nor disproves preload anywhere. Please elaborate further. |
Firstbatch
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 08:56 am: |
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Very interesting Spuds....seems like an absolute that the Uly bearing size is not adequate. Had no idea it was that small in comparison to the Sporty. Why would the design engineer choose to reduce the size so dramatically from a similar bike?? |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 11:21 am: |
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2_spuds,
Have you got the make/model number for the Sportster bearings? It'd be interesting to compare the manufacturer's load specs for the two bearings. Obviously the Sporty bearing is ~2X the width, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's load-handling capacity is doubled. How do the inside diameters compare?
Another thought- while you apparently can't fit the very wide Sportster wheel bearings in the Uly rear wheel, you should be able to go slightly wider. Looks like you might be able to machine a little more depth into the wheel, and you could machine some width off the two bosses on the rear swing arm and let the bearings protrude from the wheel slightly. |
Bross
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 12:44 pm: |
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quote by 2_spuds "I replaced the aluminum spacer with a steel one, and I change the bearings out with skf one's at every tire change.I'am on set# 6 or 7 now."
That seems a little excessive. The more I think about this, the more similarities I find to the BMW final drive failures.
- why do some fail early?
- why do some NOT fail?
- why do some go long mileage before failing?
Similar to the BMW final drives, I don't think it's an inherent design flaw, or they'd ALL fail. I think it's a quality control problem at the factory and for the Buells possibly at tire change time? Everyone knows you guys are changing rear tires frequently, and isn't there a pretty specific sequence to torquing the rear axle properly.
Same as the BMWs, I think it's statistically a relatively small number of riders having failures compared to total bikes on the road. Doesn't make you guys having failures feel any better. I ride a BMW and frankly have no idea IF my final drive will fail or not. I just ride it and if it fails, I'll fix it, but I haven't been able to figure out why they're failing either??? |
Jlnance
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 03:52 pm: |
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Everyone knows you guys are changing rear tires frequently, and isn't there a pretty specific sequence to torquing the rear axle properly.
Some have failed with the original factory tire on the bike.
I think you're right though. I believe it's some sort of quality control problem. |
Bails
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 05:12 pm: |
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I don't know , but I suspect that the bearings can more than handle the load. Can they handle forces not passed directly through the center of the bearing is another issue, and may be a factor that could cause some initial wear thus allowing moisture into the bearing race. The issue is that the Bearings fail due to ingress of water, water causes seizures etc. I see it as seal breaks down over time, water in, or hub lets water in and seals can't stop the water going through to race. If bearings are being greased then this factor would help stop ingress of water, same as changing on a regular basis. For me it is a simple design fault . bearings not sealed from the effects of moisture. |
Johnboy777
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 08:09 pm: |
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WOW!
This picture says it all - I would think that Uly riders are more inclined to ride two-up and carry luggage etc. than say your average Sportster rider...add to that, these Uly's are designed to go off road (well kinda) and be operated in more extreme and demanding conditions.
What nonsense.
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Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 10:35 pm: |
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While everybody is panicking with Internet Amplification, I just want to throw out that I ride my Uly in all weather, year round. With 32,000 miles, my wheel bearings are fine. |
Dio
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 10:46 pm: |
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Harley sealed wheel bearings are a double row bearing, where the Buell is only single row. Twice as many balls in each. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 11:23 pm: |
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Questions:
Is the Sporty hub narrower? (bearing-to-bearing distanceb)
Is the Sporty bearing ball-bearing and the Uly roller bearing? |
Dio
| | Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2008 - 11:35 pm: |
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The Sportster hub is narrower than the Buell. Rim width is a lot narrower - 3.5" compared to 5" for Buell. Both are radial ball bearings. Sportster has either 3/4" or 1" bearing I.D. depending on model year, whereas the Buell uses a 30mm I.D. bearing. Not much chance for any interchangeability here! |
Bross
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 10:56 am: |
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While everybody is panicking with Internet Amplification, I just want to throw out that I ride my Uly in all weather, year round. With 32,000 miles, my wheel bearings are fine.
That was kinda the point of my post. This sounds *exactly* like the BMW Final drive hysteria. There are some failures happening, for sure. But like yours mine's been running flawlessly for the past 27,000kms.
That's why I think it's gotta be a quality control issue and not an inherent design flaw. Would just be nice to nail down *what* issue. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 10:39 pm: |
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If the sporty hub is that much narrower, it only makes sense that they have heavier bearings as the stresses on the hubs would be higher with ANY side load on the wheel. |
Littlefield
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 10:05 am: |
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There's nothing wrong with the spacer compressing, that's what it's suppose to do. It just has to do it the proper amount. That's why the correct torque is important. Has anybody measured the distance between the 2 shoulders in the rear hub and compared it with the length of the spacer? |
Arcticktm
| | Posted on Monday, March 17, 2008 - 12:36 pm: |
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I wouldn't get too excited about the difference between Sporty and Buell wheel bearings.
And yes, I just replaced mine (rear)at 9,200 miles.
The SKF's I used as replacements are rated for far more static load than the chassis could ever handle, according to SKF's on-line info. Note that other companies ratings are similar, including the stock NTN ratings.
The Buell axle is much larger diameter (30mm) than the H-D, so that will also buy you more load capacity (and balls, if you are into counting balls!).
Both my rear bearings had damage due to water intrusion, not any physical damage due to loading.
The brake rotor side was worse, but both showed corrosion getting a good start.
I never used a power washer, or ridden off-road.
The SKF's appear to have a slightly robust seal design, but that is only my observation, and time will tell.
I put some more grease in the fronts, and bought some SKF's in that size just to have on hand.
I was thinking about making up some kind of rubber shield, to mimic what most off-raod bikes have, but space is tight, and not sure it would hold up with not protection on the outer diameter. |
Michael1
| | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 08:29 am: |
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So I pulled my wheels last night to prepare to spoon on some Distanzia's...
The rear axle...tightened by gorilla's. The dealer pulled this off and put it on due to my failed pulley side bearings. Funny thing... the original seal was mashed in between the current bearing and the swingarm. I had to pry it off of the swingarm. The bearings were in great shape. Little dirt in between the seal lip. Inside looked good. Rotation was smooth. I have 5k miles on the new bearings. It has the green grease in there (Chevron SRI #2 If I'm correct).
The front... great shape, some dirt in the seal lip. Inside was clean. But it has the blue grease (Polyrex EM). I was going to add some more grease, but I have a lithium based grease and the polyres is a Polyurea base and they don't mix at all. They turn to a black sludge and purge the base oil's. So I left it.
The only good thing was the dealer added anti-seize to the rear axle. So that was good. The front axle was shiney like it was brand new. No anti-seize..nothing. Bu then again, it's never been off.
Today I'll be heading to a few different bearing houses for work, and I'll buy some new bearings as spares for my trips coming up.
All in all, I'm happier now that I've seen the condition of the bearings. |
Florida_lime
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 11:51 am: |
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I just had my rear wheel right side bearing go out at just over 14,000 miles. Of course this was 600 miles from home on Good Friday afternoon !
After a $165 flat bed tow, it was dropped off at Earl Small's in Marietta, Georgia right at closing time. I took a taxi to a HoJo's in the area, and spent the night.
Saturday morning it was all fixed, and I was on my way again. Excellent prompt service work from Earl Small's !
I do ride in all conditions, with some dirt road usage, but did all my own tire changes, and never used more than 45 lb/ft of torque. I have checked the bearings at each rear tire change, and I did notice a tiny amount of grittiness for the last change 1,000 miles earlier. I thought it wasn't enough to worry about, but enough to keep an eye on things. Understatement!
Buell customer service says that the tow and hotel are NOT covered under warrantee -- anyone know otherwise ???? |
Bails
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 05:06 pm: |
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Well I am currently getting my damage fixed under warranty. I asked about Motel etc and was told tough titty. The thing that really pisses me off in Australia is the lack of spares held in stock. I am going to be waiting 8 weeks for the spacer to come from the USA, Buell won't pay the monthly lease for a bike I can't ride ! I like the bike but it is the worst dealer service I've ever experienced in 30 years of bike ownership. |
Dldeano
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 07:51 pm: |
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I have read about the anti sieze trick on the axle to help this failure.
Anyone keep a coat of water proof grease along the outer seal?? Seems easy enough to Q-tip on periodically.
Just curious. |
Electraglider_1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 08:03 pm: |
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I used the anti-sieze on the outside seal. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 08:05 pm: |
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Bails,
I think I'd find a decent local machine shop and get a new spacer made. At least one rider here has made his own steel spacer hoping to reduce the likelihood of bearing failure, his theory being that the OEM aluminum spacer "gives" too much and side-loads the bearings. |
Hughlysses
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 08:14 pm: |
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I checked my rear bearings last Friday (see other current bearing thread). They felt a little notchy, but when I pulled the seals there was no rust, no water, and the grease looked clean. I put in a little more grease and popped the seals back in, and re-mounted the wheel. Pulled the front wheel last night and the bearings felt as smooth as glass. Called up Applied Industrial today and ordered a pair of Koyo's for the rear and re-pulled the rear wheel tonight.
Now Etenully says notchy rear/smooth front is normal so I'm considering leaving the rears in (I don't think the method I've seen suggested here of heating the hub with a hair dryer and knocking them out with a dirft is gonna work anyway- the edge of my drift won't catch the inner race of the bearings). Any consensus on whether the rear bearings should be as smooth turning as the fronts or some notchiness is normal? |
Dldeano
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2008 - 08:40 pm: |
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Waterproof grease (or anti-sieze) on the axle will help fill gaps and keep intrusion down. The same seems true for seals.
I guess the only down side is any thing that does get in will be harder to drain out??
My KLR, V-strom, DR all have (or had) seen hellacious water, mud, river crossing, etc...never a problem, but now that I think of it, I always greased the axle and the bearing's outer seal when the wheel was removed. |
Hotdog271
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2008 - 06:24 pm: |
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For what it is worth, I'm on my second bearing failure in under 8000 miles... At 4500 miles dealer replaced tires, powder coated wheels and REPLACED bearings. 600 miles later bearings are bad! They replaced under warranty... 300 miles later bearings are bad! I guess I'll do it myself this time, not over torque and hope for the best! |
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