| Author | Message | ||
     1324 |
I've lost count of how many times I've replaced those damn bolts. I've lost torqued down bolts on the chin spoiler so many times, you'd think I'd just buy them in bulk. And those damn bolts on the front of the muffler...WTF?!? No matter how I approach removing them, they strip each and every time I remove them. Now I need to get out the dremel just to change my friggin' oil! And yes, before the accusations fly, I have all the proper tools, and the skills. For God's sake, this is a five year old bike, not a 25 year old Asian econobox! Why?? Ah, anyway, end of my rant. But seriously, I'm sure I'm not the only one with these troubles. Has anyone found a suitable non-torx replacement for these bolts? If so, where did you get them? I haven't looked anywhere yet, but I'm going to start.  | ||
| Mr2shim |
I hate torx bolts. Dumbest pieces of useless garbage ever. I got replacements for the airbox plastic plate thing(dunno name) that bolts to the frame. Got regular hex bolts from advance. I also find that the local hardware store powns in the replacement bolt section.   | ||
| 1324 |
I'm with you. I understand the theory behind torx fasteners, but seriously, as an engineer, I have never and will never use them in any of my designs. NEVER. That being said, I've had good luck with Ace Hardware in the past, but there are none up here where I just moved. Plus, I want to retain some relatively good looking stainless fasteners. I'm thinking I can find good replacements for the front two bolts on the chin spoiler, but the side/body bolts have those shoulders on them to nicely locate the body panels. I'd LOVE to retain that feature if possible. | ||
| Bombardier |
How tight are you doing them up? They are only holding plastic and with a little locktite they will go nowhere at any torque. | ||
| Old_man |
+1 on a little loctite. Not too tight on the bolt. | ||
| Cycleaddict |
i use 1/4-20" cap head(allen) bolts for the front chin spoiler mounts. + blue loctite. | ||
| Sloppy |
hmmm... my Torx bolts are holding up fine for years now. But I did have to by a special in-between size that you can't buy as a set. It was a T-27. Most sets just have a T-25 and T-30. You sure you have the right socket size? Torx was originally designed as a replacement for phillips heads as Torx don't "cam out" as phillips do and so are supposed to last longer! So you'll likely see Torx heads rather than allens for those locations that aren't supposed to have a lot of torque for fear of stripping the threads. Don't mean to offend anyone, but make sure you use the correct size socket! Loctite is handy to use -- but don't use on plastic, it will crack the plastic. I find that a thread chaser does a good job of keeping the bolts from loosening. In addition to cleaning threads you'll get an exact diameter and pitch size so you'll know exactly what kind of replacement bolt to get if you want a different type. (Message edited by sloppy on March 13, 2008) | ||
| Spdkls |
also if you live in high humidity and salt areas. you need to use some anti-sieze. | ||
| Manimal |
+2 on the blue loctite. After about 6 different bolts rattled out of my chin fairing i finally decided to use loctite with standard head bolts. And i agree about the torx head bolts. Damn things strip in a heart beat. When you buy a buell they should come with a complimentary "Easy out" and an apology.  | ||
| Adrenaline_junkie |
I hate Torx heads. I have several t-27 drivers now. Fortunately I don't use them much because I have replaced almost every one of the Torx head bolts with 1/4-20 x 3/4 Stainless Steel Socket Heat Cap Screws (Allen Head, stainless). I love them. I bought a bag of 50 at Fastenal for about 35 or 40 bucks. Money well spent. The only place I'm still using Torx is for the air box under the seat. Allen heads are to tall in this location. I saved all of the Torx I removed from other places so I have a good selection to use for these two screws. I even found some small SS Allen heads to hold the flyscreen on so the theme is carried through to all locations. (Message edited by Adrenaline_Junkie on March 13, 2008) | ||
| 1324 |
I do in fact have a T27...and a T25 and T30. I managed to get one of them out last night, but it involved tapping a T30 into the boogered up bolt and using my ratchet. The other one is another story. That will require a dremel. I'm only torquing them per the manuals specs. I learned many years ago not to overtorque (the hard way, of course). The problem I see it, is that the front two bolts have a black oxide coating (or so they look)...mine aren't stainless. After years of heat from the exhaust and road splash (clay, silt, salt, etc.), the oxide wears off and the alloy 'softens' when you try to remove them. I can't figure out why they didn't use stainless steel hardware all the way around. I really don't have much trouble with the other ones EXCEPT for them rattling free. I'll have to concede and use some loctite from now on...with the hex head bolts I'm going to buy. | ||
| Nautique4life |
Dang. I have never had a single issue with my torx bolts. I have taken airbox cover and airbox base plate and tailsection off countless times. | ||
| Jaydub |
+3 blue loctite! i lost bolts ONLY when I didn't use it The 2 small front ones that attach to the muffler, i was able to replace with stainless from the hardware store for about $0.80 | ||
| Ccryder |
Through 5 Buells, I have never had an issue with the Torx head screws. But, I always use a good quality bit. I always use never-seize on the screws in the primary, they seem to always have a problem. Also steel screws going into aluminum (ie: airbox cover) need to have never-seize. Please remember when replacing screws that SS screws will have a tendancy to gall in steel (never-seize is your friend here)and they usually are not as strong as their low carbon steel conterparts. Just my $0.02. Neil S. | ||
| Sparky |
Never had a problem with the Torx screws on the XB. But then if it doesn't readily unscrew, I tap it with an impact driver to break it free. Works every time... on Torx, allens and hex heads too. | ||
| Sloppy |
Interesting dichotomy of experiences. Good point on tool quality - I have long since converted to Proto from Craftsmen and there is a huge difference in quality. But I'll chalk this one under KARMA! | ||
| 1324 |
I really need to buy an impact... I'm not too concerned with galling (although I should be) because I use thread treatments and the other bolts on the spoiler are SS. At the rate I either remove them or they remove themselves, it shouldn't be an issue, lol. And for the record, I should have clarified earlier: I have only had issues on the bolts threading into the muffler bracketry. The bolts on the airbox, tailsections, airbox, etc. have never given me concern. This further reinforces my feeling that the torx fastener and how it mounts is insufficient for such a high temp/high contamination/oxidation area... | ||
| Spatten1 |
We used them at a factory I worked at because the assembly people could get the air tool in quickly and easily and they engaged the bit well for proper torque. Lots of surface area engaged, so theoretically it works better than an allen that can round out if not made of very hard steel. | ||
| Ferrisbuellersdayoff |
Is this one of the reasons if you mention teflon tape you get a verbal beating, the body screws coming out? | ||
| Ccryder |
You are just sooooo perceptive, you get a free roll of T##### T###, color is your choice as long as you want white. Just don't tell anyone where you got it from and it will be delivered in a plain brown wrapper addressed to John Doe on the 1st full moon after the spring eqinox. Time2go B4 I get flammed!!!!!!!!!! Later neil S. | ||
| Rogue_biker |
I've lost ONE, that's right, one torx screw on my Firebolt. It was the fastener for the airbox. The key is us the right size & quality torx bit, and the right type of wrench. The best is when I use standard ratcheting wrenches. Also, make sure you have the torx bit firmly in place before you turn. And if you feel it slipping just a little, ease up, re-position, and try again. If it's tight, use a wrench that gives you proper leverage. Most importantly, do NOT rush the job. You rush it and you will strip it! | ||
| Jos51700 |
Quality tooling is critical, but in 6 years of handling almost nothing but Firebolts, I've never lost one of those screws. I've never had to easy-out them, either. I've had a few strip after several in 'n outs, but literally, just last week, I had to drill out the first two I've EVER had to drill. It was the front two on the chin fairing. The two there were not correct, and had shoulders. After drilling the heads enough to pop the plastic, taking many breaks so as to not melt the plastic, they came right out with visegrips. That's one thing, the shoulder gives you alot to bite on if they seize. Those, when new, come with a lockpatch, that I will be removing. | ||
| Jos51700 |
"but the side/body bolts have those shoulders on them to nicely locate the body panels. I'd LOVE to retain that feature if possible." That shoulder is not to locate the plastic, it is to prevent "squishing" of the plastic, while still allowing a good, solid torque on the fastener. As an engineer, I'd figure you'd know that. Who makes your tools? I'm kind of curious why you have so many problems, and I have none (Barring ham-fisted hacks with cheap tools). There has to be a reason.... | ||
| Ccryder |
John: The shoulder does three things, allows the location of the body panel, keep the fastener from squashing the plastic and, enables the fastener to be torqued down. Those are some of things that need to be considered when you are bolting things together. Too many times one or more of those issues are overlooked and you either loose the screw, since it's not torqued correctly, smash the panel and crack it since it can't take the load and, mis-locate the panel so the other fasteners can't be inserted or the fit is piss poor. And someone said that engineers..... well never mind, time for me to get my goodies together for my 1125r delivery tomorrow. Later Neil S. | ||
| Bombardier |
Had a friend call me up on a Sunday for me to help him change the spare on his Mums car as he had burnt the tread clean off it and it was now shredded. He could not get the wheel nuts off and had actually snapped one of the lugs he said. I told him not to do anymore as I would be right over. Needless to say by the time I got there he had sheared off another two. He was using a wheel wrench with a six foot piece of pipe on it for leverage - doing the nuts up!!!! By the way he is now a well respected professional in his own right - AN ENGINEER!!! | ||
| 1324 |
"but the side/body bolts have those shoulders on them to nicely locate the body panels. I'd LOVE to retain that feature if possible." That shoulder is not to locate the plastic, it is to prevent "squishing" of the plastic, while still allowing a good, solid torque on the fastener. As an engineer, I'd figure you'd know that. Who makes your tools? I'm kind of curious why you have so many problems, and I have none (Barring ham-fisted hacks with cheap tools). There has to be a reason.... First of all, John, thanks for bringing character attacks into a technical thread. It really speaks highly of your character. You know nothing about me, my experiences, education, etc. That being said, you read my statement and interpreted it as me posting everything I know about these fasteners, which simply is not correct. I don't post on the internet to validate my technical competence. I pity the person who does. No one posting on this thread or anywhere else on the internet will change my beliefs that there are better alternatives than Torx heads. I'm not talking about ease of assembly, either. All my tools are either Snap-on or Craftsman. Sorry, I simply cannot afford anything more expensive; they work adequately for everything else. Anyone who knows anything about me or my vehicles knows I am anything but ham-fisted. Here in the northeast (especially NY), there are plenty of good riding days where the roads are still covered in salt dust, sand, and silt from winter road clearing. That mixture wrecks havoc on anything it touches. Add heat to the mixture, and you have a petrie dish for corrosion. I know this, and hence why I prefer stainless steel fasteners in these locations. This is the case with the front two bolts on my chin fairing. The stainless steel Torx fasteners everywhere else on my bike are fine...which I mentioned earlier. Quite honestly, I'm not sure why anyone in their right mind would take offense to my pleas for better fasteners (unless that person were the engineer who originally spec'd said fasteners). Brand loyalty aside, it is clear that Buell needs to address the fastener issue for one reason alone: Who in the right mind would mix metric and English sizes, especially when more than half of all Buells are sold overseas? This isn't a bash on Buell, it is a reality check. I love my Buell, and I understand that they are a small organization where some things get overlooked. Yes, the big picture is quite good for Buell, and I salute them. This is just an area of needed improvement. For the already high price of a Buell, I don't think it is too much to ask for consistency and quality. All I can say is my Suzukis never had issues with fasteners; they are all metric and all good quality to limit corrosion. | ||
| Jos51700 |
I was not referring to you being a "ham-fisted hack", although I can see, in retrospect, why you would think that was my intention. I offer my apologies. I was referring to the large number of people here (Missouri, not BadWeb) that like to jam allen wrenches, screwdrivers, and, pitifully so, butter knives into their torx fasteners. I have no doubt as to your frustration with these fasteners. We have salt and sand and all the loveliness that goes along with them here, and I actually do see repeated issues with Suzuki fasteners. I asked what kind of tools you use because I was simply curious, not because I was implying that you might need more expensive tools (do they come more expensive than Snap-on?). People have gotten offended that, like you, my box contains mostly Craftsman tools. I purchase more expensive tools on two criteria: if it's a measuring instrument, (DVOM, Micrometer, etc), or if it's used in a fastener that can strip out (Torx, Allen, Phillips, etc). As if to verify my confusion of the issues you have, that I don't, I warranty on average, two Snap-on T27's every week, because my bits deform, and the fasteners don't. I am terribly sorry that I offended you, it was not my intention, although, I can look back and see exactly why you think that. Metric and standard? If that fleet sails, we're in the same boat. I as for the rest, I have no more than the curiosity as to why you have problems and I don't. You can take this as a validation of "technical competence" (using ones credentials as an engineer to justify dislike of these fasteners could be construed in similar fashion), however, I prefer to find a solution to the issues of fellow Buell owners so they may increase their enjoyment of these motorcycles. When I see others have issues I don't, I like to see what's up. I figure the guy that spec'd these fasteners is in Milwaukee area, where they do use salt and sand, too, and he probably knows more about the requirements of these fasteners than you or I. This is why I don't endorse randomly changing fasteners, even though people will do what people will do (See reference to butter knife above). If I don't have any issues, but others do, there's a reason. I'm not saying it's the user/servicer, but this user/servicer sees that an awful lot. | ||
| Jos51700 |
I was also curious, do you remove those two black front fasteners every time you change your oil filter? | ||
| Jos51700 |
"The shoulder does three things, allows the location of the body panel, keep the fastener from squashing the plastic and, enables the fastener to be torqued down. " I agree with the shoulder-location thing to a degree, but to me, it's not required, because any snug hole on a fastener will do, as evidenced by the front flyscreen screws on S models (And the subsequent squoosage of the nylon washers there that happens so often). I have always wondered why there, front and center for the whole world to see, did not recieve a shouldered fastener... | ||
| 1324 |
John, First and foremost, after you last post, I'd like to apologize if I came across too defensive. The internet has a way or losing emphasis and meaning in text. I read your response as soon as I woke up to yet another day of gray clouds and snow...so I apolgize. Plus, its lent and almost 40 days without beer is getting to me, hahaha. I typically do remove the front two fasteners to do the oil change, because I haven't gotten around to removing rivets. If I removed those rivets and replaced them with removable fasteners like I should have, I wouldn't have this issue, lol. I guess I can get the filter off without removing the rivets and chin spoiler completely, but I never tried. The spoiler does allow for some movement, so I guess it's worth a shot. I just like to have the area opened up so I can inspect for other issues and do a proper cleanup after the oil drips out. | ||
| Jos51700 |
I've always just spread the chin spoiler out gently, leaving the front two in place, but I understand the whole inpsection/cleanup thing. 40 days, no beer? You like to challenge yourself don't you?! Thanks for accepting and reciprocating an apology. I can be a pompous ass sometimes, but I try to save it for work. | ||
| 1324 |
I'll try that method next time I'm changing the oil. Yeah, I like a challenge, alright. ONE MORE WEEK... It's all good man, no harm no foul. |
