| Author | Message | ||
     Birdy |
Seems like it just went in to service but it'd been 27 years. http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/articl e?AID=/20080311/LOCAL12/401493042/1002/LOCAL | ||
| Doerman |
That was a fine piece of engineering that broke ground for many advances and has contributed greatly to keeping us safe. I salute the people that built the aircraft and pilots and support personnel that kept it going. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
There must be a new hotness that they are not telling us about. You dont retire an aircraft like that before it has completed its operational life cycle. Spooky things in the sky afoot. | ||
| Buellshyter |
The article states the F117 is being replaced by the F22. However, the 117, despite having the "F" designation, was never a fighter. It is a ground attack aircraft. The mission of the F22 is air superiority. Some may recall that one F117 was shot down during the Kosovo War in 1999, inspected by the Russians and Lord knows who else, and is currently on display at the Museum of Aviation in Belgrade. I recall video of Serbs dancing around the still burning wreckage on the news, much to my dismay. What I never understood about the incident is why the U.S. military didn't incinerate the crash site with a fuel/air bomb or by some other means. When an F117 crashed at an air show in Middle River, Maryland, I personally know people who were threatened and intimidated by the military in an effort to recover every last piece of the downed aircraft. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Actually, I believe it'll be replaced for a new FA model other than the F22. I saw a show on the Discovery HD channel that said a new "FA" that's being developed will have 3 different versions, one for the Marines that will have "Jump Jet" technology. If memory serves, FA132 comes to mind. The F22 might be retired too soon. | ||
| Unibear12r |
That would be the F35. The F22 will not be retired for a long, long, long... time. There won't ever be anything to compare to it. When it gets replaced it will be by unmanned aircraft. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
Yup, the F35. Thanks. | ||
| Slaughter |
F-117A Nighthawk To Be Honored at Retirement Ceremony (Posted: Tuesday, March 11, 2008) [Air Force Online News, March 10, 2008] By Derek Kaufman 88th Air Base Wing Public Affairs Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio -- A retirement ceremony to honor the contributions of the F-117A Nighthawk, the world's first attack aircraft to employ stealth technology, will take place here March 11. The retirement ceremony is not open to the general public, however, Wright-Patterson employees, retirees and family members with base access are welcome to attend. The 10 a.m. event will take place at Base Operations Hangar 206N where an F-117A from the 49th Fighter Wing at Holloman AFB, N.M. will be displayed. The ceremony will conclude with a flyover at 10:25 a.m. Hangar doors will open at 9 a.m. to allow viewing of the F-117A static display and other historical memorabilia prior to the 10 a.m. ceremony. Due to limited parking at Base Operations, attendees are directed to park at the large lot south of the Fire Department near the intersection of Wright and Skeel Avenues, where shuttle buses will commence starting at 9 a.m. Carpooling is highly encouraged. The Air Force decided to accelerate retirement of the venerable stealth fighter fleet to free up funding for modernization. Ten aircraft were retired in Fiscal Year 2007 and 27 so far in 2008. Holloman's remaining aircraft will go into storage next month, said Diana Filliman, director of the 650th Aeronautical Systems Squadron here, which provides F-117A program management. "With aging aircraft fleets and infrastructure, senior Air Force leadership has made hard choices to pay for modernization of our overall aircraft inventory," Filliman said. "One of these decisions was to accelerate the retirement of the F-117, and use the savings generated to accelerate the recapitalization and modernization efforts underway across the fleet." A total of 59 production black jets were built. While not invisible to radar, the Nighthawk's distinctive, faceted shape and a special low observable coating combined to greatly reduce its radar cross section and any adversary's ability to target it. Although the strike aircraft has been in service for 27 years, its existence was first publicly acknowledged only in November 1988, when the Air Force released a grainy photograph of a Nighthawk in flight. Its first formal public appearance came in April 1990 at Nellis AFB, Nevada. Nighthawk static displays and flyovers would soon attract large crowds at air shows across the country and around the world. In the program's early years, Airmen from the 4450th Test Group assigned at Nellis would commute via contracted airlift to the Tonopah, Nev. airfield from which the F-117s flew almost exclusively at night. Later, publicly acknowledging the fighter became a priority to enable daylight flying, as well as exercise and deployment participation and full integration into the combat air forces. Men and women associated with the 4450th Test Group continued to fly and maintain the F-117A at Tonopah as members of the 37th Tactical Fighter Wing. The F-117A fleet relocated to Holloman Air Force Base reflagged to the 49th Fighter Wing in 1992, where the active fleet remains today. Beginning early in 2009, Holloman is slated to replace its retiring F-117s with two squadrons of F-22 Raptors. Combat debut for the F-117A came in December 1989, during Operational Just Cause when Maj. Gregory Feest led a flight of two jets which dropped laser-guided bombs to shock Panamanian Defense Forces in preparation for an assault by U.S. Army Rangers. Feest and the F-117A would return to combat in January 1991, when Nighthawks opened Operation Desert Storm destroying critical and highly defended targets throughout Iraq and Kuwait. Despite thousands of anti-aircraft guns and batteries of surface-to-air missiles, F-117s flew with impunity over Baghdad precisely striking targets with its payload of two 2,000 lb. GBU-27 laser-guided weapons. The jet's combination of stealth and precision made it the natural choice for opening strikes over the former Yugoslavia during Operation Allied Force in 1999 and again over Iraq during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. Of the 59 production F-117 aircraft, 7 were lost, including one in combat during Operation Allied Force, according to the program office. All of the remaining jets will return to their original secure home at Tonopah and hangared in "recallable storage," Filliman said. The F-117 production decision was made in 1978 with a contract awarded to Lockheed Advanced Development Projects, the "Skunk Works." First flight over Tonopah Test Range was on June 18, 1981, only 31 months after the full-scale development decision, Filliman said. "We are extremely proud of the long legacy of the F-117 and are committed to retiring this first generation stealth fighter with honor and dignity," Filliman said. "The F-117 program created a revolution in military warfare by incorporating low-observable technology into an operational aircraft." | ||
| Slaughter |
Nighthawk Pilots Reflect on F-117's Legacy (Posted: Tuesday, March 11, 2008) [Air Force Online News, March 10, 2008] By Derek Kaufman 88th Air Base Wing Public Affairs Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio -- Like most Americans, Col. Tom Bell experienced the spectacular display of American airpower during the opening of Operation Desert Storm while watching CNN on television. Bell was then attending the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College at Ft. Leavenworth, Kan. An Air Force pilot, he was immersed in learning about Army doctrine and missions from Army officers, and sharing his Airman's perspective on aerospace power with them. Saddam Hussein's August 1990 invasion of Kuwait and the U.S. led coalition's response in January 1991 had transformed academic discussions on strategy and tactics into lively critiques as the war unfolded live on television. He extolled to fellow classmates how a single-seat fighter airplane could be employed for strategic effects, or a bomber employed tactically. Precision F-117A attacks on a key communications node to take down Iraqi command and control was a good example of the former. Today, as commander of Air Force ROTC Northeast Region at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, the former F-111, F-117 and B-1 pilot can offer to future officers another example -- using B-52s or B-1s in a close air support role to strike insurgents fighting in close proximity to friendly ground forces. Into the heart of the storm Brig. Gen. Greg Feest, then a major, saw Desert Storm from a slightly different perspective. Flying the lead F-117 stealth fighter, his mission was to drop a two-thousand pound laser-guided bomb onto an Iraqi interceptor operations center. The weapon impacted on time, on target, marking the opening of the air campaign. Feest then headed to strike his second target, a sector operations center. With the target in his jet's crosshairs, he watched as it recorded direct hit. The F-117A, at the time already 10 years old, and its "game changing" combination of stealth and precision was being tested in what was then the world's most densely concentrated network of air defenses. "It was like flying into the biggest fireworks demonstration you have ever seen," Feest said reflecting on that first night over Iraq. "Realize, we were in the heart of it. Because of the delivery system we had at the time, we had to be down low. We couldn't fly over the AAA (anti-aircraft artillery), we had to fly into the heart of it." Before taking off that night, nearly all of the F-117 pilots were leery of how well its stealth characteristics would protect them from radars that would direct thousands of Iraqi guns and surface-to-air missiles. Since the Nighthawk's targets, including many in downtown Baghdad, were highly defended, wing leaders had privately prepared themselves for F-117 losses as high as 50 percent on the first night. "We didn't know if it was going to work," Feest said of the black jet's stealth. "The engineers all assured us that it would." Coming off their targets to return to their operating base on the Arabian Peninsula, Feest listened in as the F-117 attack fleet began checking in to refuel with an airborne tanker. Carrying a list with call signs for each pilot, Feest started checking off names. "At the end I was amazed to see I had a checkmark next to every call sign and every pilot's name, knowing we were all coming home." After landing every jet was inspected by maintainers for evidence of battle damage. No F-117 had been hit. The amazing milestone was repeated again the next night. "After about the fourth night we realized this stealth technology really worked and we were begging to get back up into the air and fly as many missions as we could," Feest said. After 1270 plus Desert Storm sorties not one F-117 ever received battle damage, he said. For full article, click here: http://www.holloman.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=12308 9592 | ||
| Bluzm2 |
There is a book named "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich. He was head of Lockheeds Skunk Works during the design and building of the F117. He was also one of the engineers of the Blackbird. Very good book if you are interested in this type of stuff. Truly a remarkable plane. Brad | ||
| Dbird29 |
Christ, I'm getting old.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
Me too. I think I built some of the data systems that did some tests on F117 engines. They interviewed one of the Iraqi radar operators at the end of Desert storm... he said the only indication he had that the F117 was coming was that, suddenly, everything around him was exploding. Unfortunately for the plane over Kosovo, it wasn't invisible from enough angles. If its coming to kill you, you won't know until you are dead. But if its going to kill somebody else, you might be able to track it. I think they fixed that with the second generation stealth... | ||
| Darthane |
It's been in service as long as I have.  The idea of the F-117 being replaced by the F-22 isn't really that far-fetched. Most air superiority aircraft have been modified and can now fulfill ground attack roles. The F-16, F-15, and F/A-18, just to name a few. The F-117 is only capable of carrying 2 2000lbs LGBs. That's really not a significant payload outside of the fact that it can do it virtually invisibly to radar. The F-22 supposedly has 'nearly' the stealth capability of the F-117, but it really wouldn't surprise me if it were just as difficicult to detect if not moreso, and I'm sure its internal ordnance bays could be modified (if they are not already capable of it) to handle bombs as opposed to air-to-air missiles. I've got another book regarding the Skunk Works called "Lockheed Stealth" that I picked up from Wright-Patterson the last time I was there...that was/is an amazing think-tank and the things they have accomplished are truly, truly remarkable (and we don't even know all of it by far, of course!). | ||
| Spdkls |
Unfortunately for the plane over Kosovo, it wasn't invisible from enough angles. If its coming to kill you, you won't know until you are dead. But if its going to kill somebody else, you might be able to track it. the first story on the reason that plane got shot down, was the that he was flying too low, somebody heard him pass by, radioed ahead and they threw everything in the air in that direction. and the other reason was that his weapons bay had jammed open for whatever reason making him as big as a 747 on radar. so he tried to fly low under the radar and then the above happened. at least that what some of the system engineers said a few years ago. but hey, working the flightline for 15 years i've seen and heard crazier stuff. did you guys happen to see the amount of holes were in that thing. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Sounds more plausible... | ||
| Buellshyter |
The idea of the F-117 being replaced by the F-22 isn't really that far-fetched. Most air superiority aircraft have been modified and can now fulfill ground attack roles. The F-16, F-15, and F/A-18, just to name a few. True, however; the F22 is not currently offered in any configuration other than an air superiority fighter. Retiring the F117 leaves an actual or perceived gap, unless it's being filled by something not seen in public or the Air Force is content with the task being performed by the non-stealth F15E "Strike Eagle" | ||
| Birdy |
The F35 Lighting II (Joint Strike Fighter)is waiting in the wings. Stealth and speed, guns and all. Plus it's 2nd gen stealth and I bet cheaper too. Of course when we're talking tens of millions of dollars each "cheap" may not be the right word. | ||
| Buellshyter |
The F35 is still 3-4 years away. We might be fighting the ChiComs before then | ||
| Aesquire |
The F16 was meant to be a cheap(er) ground attack/fighter. Upgrades have made it even better at both. Few countries wanted to buy it with less than the full suite of electronic gear. ( where most of the savings would be ) The F15 was originally an air superiority bird. Later, with the F15E it became a very capable night/day bomber. The F/A18 was always meant to be a fighter/bomber. The Navy has limited deck space, so the F/A18 was to replace the A4, A6, A8, F4, and be capable of fleet defense along side the greatest Navy fighter of all time, the F14. It now replaces the F14 too. The F14, which always had the ability ( with software changes ) to be a great bomber, was not used for that purpose ( for political reasons ) until the Kosovo war, when F/A18's in a role reversal escorted F14's on bomb strikes. The pallet armament system meant a F14 could load bombs, shoot down enemy planes, bomb a target, and return to be refueled & a new pallet with Phoenix missiles installed & take off for CAP duties, defending the fleet, in under an hour. The Navy is now destroying any parts & planes not on secure display to keep Iran ( the only other country to use them ) from getting spare parts. The F22 is a wonderful plane but I wonder how close it is to Kelly Johnson's ( P38, P80, Blackbird, etc. designer ) belief that the Air Force would someday get the plane it wanted, that would do anything, but they could only afford 1. Too precious to risk, it would spend all time in a secure, underground bunker. | ||
| Blake |
The KTM of Aircraft. | ||
| Birdy |
I don't know but could the old BUFF be the greatest airplane ever built? The B-52 guys say that when the last B-2 goes to the bone yard the Air Force will send a BUFF to pick up the pilots. I do know it will be in service well past 75 years before the power that be even think of retiring it. It's all about up grades. | ||
| Naustin |
I bet whatever replaced the F117 is already fully operational, and probably has been for 5 years. We won't know about it for another 5 years. PS - Think "stealth Cruise missle"... (Message edited by naustin on March 12, 2008) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I was told the F16 is what you bring when you get invited to a knife fight in a phone booth... | ||
| Buellshyter |
I was told the F16 is what you bring when you get invited to a knife fight in a phone booth..." An F22 is what you use to "take out" the two knife fighters in the phone booth, from across the street, before they knew what hit them | ||
| M1combat |
"An F22 is what you use to "take out" the two knife fighters in the phone booth, from across the street, before they knew what hit them" Unless you're feeling frisky... Then you can use the 22 to just casually walk over to the phone booth, open it up, step inside and stick both of the fighters already in there. The 16 is one heck of a dogfighter though. Could use more power but other than that... quite nice. Does the 22 have a gun? | ||
| Unibear12r |
Yes | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Could use more power but other than that... quite nice. They say the 22 has a higher climb rate than an F15, even though it has a lower thrust-to-weight ratio. I saw a 22 at an air show that performed a vertical climb, decelerated to a hover on it's tail, then continued to climb vertically. I believe there is a video of this on YouTube. The 22 has a 20mm Vulcan rotary cannon. It's a very capable aircraft but I wonder how long it will be before someone either steals or sells the technology. | ||
| Unibear12r |
Half the technology is how to make what's on that plane not just what's on it and where. If anyone else had all the tech required almost nobody could afford to build it. That's why the Brits went in on the F35 as they eventually could build it but could never afford it on their own. That's also why the future replacements will be unmanned aircraft. |
