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Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 06:49 pm: | 
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DISCLAIMER: Blake, I looked for days for something similar that I could post this question under to keep the threads in the right spots. Couldn't find a similar problem though.
I have an 08 City X. I first noticed this disturbing loss of power (torque) right at 4,000rpm (roughly) to exactly 5,000rpm where it picks back up and pulls like a tractor.
This was still during the break in so it was within the first 1,000 miles. The manual had me staying below 4,000rpm as a rule, so I thought that maybe once I could open her up, it would be gone.
I'm well over 2,500 miles and it's just as bad as ever.
I've read that the 08 ECM is different than previous years. The 04 XB12 I had never lost any power. I know it's a different animal so that might not mean anything other than I expect them to be similar.
I'm actually kinda worried about this. The only modifications that I've made to the power plant is to put the airbox deletion kit on it right after I bought it, and re-routed the breather tubes to a catch can. Everything else is stock.
Who has suggestions/answers? Answers are preferred of course.
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 02:15 pm: |
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Before proceeding down other potentially long and trying paths, I strongly suggest that you try restoring the airbox to stock form and see what happens.
Thanks for researching the archives first. I've not seen anything already posted like what you describe either. You are breaking new ground.  |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 05:16 pm: |
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Start with simple stuff... check the ground and positive lead on your battery cable. Also look at how the ECM cables are routed, and make sure they are not getting cut (almost invisbly on the sharp edge of a battery terminal).
Something doesn't sound right, it should pull smooth up past 7000 RPM. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2008 - 06:47 pm: |
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Blake, do you know how much trouble it was to get those lines ran? Grrrr. Even though it's the same advice I would give myself, I still don't want to do it.
Reep, do you really think it could be electrical? Absolutely everything else seems to be working perfectly. Seems kind of odd that it could be electrical. But I have tinkered back there, so I'll be sure to go over it very carefully. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 11:02 am: |
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Airbox returned to stock. Awaiting weather to take it out and "re-learn" the ECM.
Took a very careful look at and around the ECM and the wiring. Everything there looked fine. Nothing cut, pinched, rubbed. After thinking about that subject though, what are the odds that it's EMI? It could happen right? The wiring isn't shielded and there could be some weird EM field happening right around the battery.
Regardless, once I get it out I'll have more to say about this. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 08:34 pm: |
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And the results are....*drumroll please!!!!!*
INCONCLUSIVE 
Took it out today and here are all the variables:
Sunny, about 40F, gusty winds.
Light-moderate traffic.
Approx 40-50miles traveled.
1 fill up.
I was wearing bluejeans, two Tshirts, a fleece jacket and my bike jacket over that. Was also sporting some Joe Rocket insulated pants to keep my nether-regions from freezing off.
Oh right! Motorcycles... NOT fashion show...
Had enough of all that? When I first got it out, I opened it up to verify that the problem was still there. It was noticeable because I knew what to look for. Tried it in several gears but the most pronounced was in 2nd. Never exceeded 70mph.
Started out on the long road that I thought would be good to "learn" the ECM. Couldn't resist a twist of the throttle; and it pulled hard all the way up to 7,000 rpm! WTF?
Eased back down and took an easy ride up. About 45-55mph, 3,000-4,000rpm the whole way. No stop & go either, just constant cruise.
Problem seems to be solved. Runs great (except for some decel popping) and I'm starting to resign myself to keeping that inner airbox.
Get off the bike and take a little "nature hike" with my girlfriend. The bike is sitting for about an hour.
Get back down the road and it's acting kinda funny. But it does that when it's cold too, and once it warmed up, it smoothed out.
She took me to check out this little waterfall and the bike was sitting for about another hour.
Got back to the bike and gave her kids a short ride around the parking lot. (Future bikers they are. One of them will probably be the leader of the squids. He's a spaz) Bike is choppy again on a short downhill portion, with lots of popping.
Uphill it hauls though, at least until about half throttle. (Still had the spaz on the back)
Let the bike sit for about 2 hours while the little missus and I run off for something naughty and then I ride home. (the bike, not the gf!)
Getting out of town keeps me slow and gives the bike time to warm up, so when I hit the highway, it was WFO. And wouldn't you know it... yep, that damn flat spot right around 4,500ish and cuts off right at 5,000. I give up and just decide to have an easy ride of it and just cruise the rest of the way home. Nice constant speeds.
OK, except for one little section that was a big hill with big sweeping turns in it... I flogged it there, but the rest of it was easy!
I'm as lost as a guy that's trying to find his a$$, only I don't have 2 hands OR a flashlight!
I'm looking for possibilities here people. Ideas? |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 10:23 pm: |
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Take it to your dealer and let them find the problem. It could be any number of things. |
Bcool83
| | Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 11:47 pm: |
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I was gonna say do the hose re-route, but you've already done that... Since it's under warranty, put the bike back to stock and take it to the dealer for sure. |
Tailspining
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 10:29 am: |
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When you find out what it is, let me know. My XB9R has been doing the same thing and it's driving me nuts. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 12:39 pm: |
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So I'm NOT the only one!!!!
I think that the dealer is gonna be my next stop. It does seem like the logical answer. Thanks guys, and I'll be sure to post the results of that visit. Might be a couple of weeks though, I have to have it at the end of the month and I might wait until then to drop it off. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 10:21 am: |
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Found this:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/327 77/343515.html?1205850018 |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 07:13 pm: |
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Not same as your issue. You have a stock motorcycle. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 11:55 pm: |
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Still think there is a link between front to rear cylinder temperature differences and bad running due to the rear only O2 sensor and the fuel map difference from front to rear. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 07:29 am: |
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Blake,
I sent an email to this guy on the other thread. Claims he can make a map for the stock ECM which tunes it better than the race ECM. I'm pretty new to the whole computer side of vehicles, but i got the theory down somewhat.
You're right though, it seems like two different issues, but the similarities are weird.
I'm still making the dealer the first stop though, if I didn't need it for a safety course on the 27th, it would already be there. As soon as I'm done with that though, it's going right to the dealership and we'll see what they have to say about it.
You guys can all believe I'll be posting the results for all to see once it comes back.
Until then, keep tossing ideas out there, never know what might help.
I just really want to know, AND KNOWING IS HALF THE BATTLE! GO JOE!  |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 05:11 pm: |
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"Still think there is a link between front to rear cylinder temperature differences and bad running due to the rear only O2 sensor and the fuel map difference from front to rear."
Not likely. These bikes and DDFI have been around for a good amount of time. No such cold weather issue has become evident. If true, you would be talking about a terrible systemic problem. That is a VERY serious accusation to make in public. Frankly, it just isn't helpful to post unsubstantiated theoretical guesswork like that.
If he checks the plugs and finds the front lean and/or the rear over-rich, then we may take the next step towards diagnosis. Yes?
(Message edited by Blake on March 19, 2008) |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 06:18 pm: |
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ok, im really not trying to start a fight or an argument.
blake, also, this other guy Opterix... i can't remember how his name goes, i re-read what he said and after checking out some of his stuff would like to retract my previous statement about him.
im really not hanging the guy out to dry and he seems quite knowledgeable about what he does. i'll talk to him offline and not bring that back up.
also, i guess speculation is kinda worthless until i get some hard facts about whats going on with my bike.
I'm gonna take it in as soon after the 27th as i can get it in. maybe the dealer has had the answer all along and they probably deserve the chance to fix it.
once it comes back, i promise to get a detailed description of what went on and what they did.
the bike is stock right now, and i cant imagine damage is going to occur with it running ok, just not on the top of it's game. i've been taking it easy with it anyway.
until i get it back, i'll just put this thread on 'pause' |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 19, 2008 - 09:52 pm: |
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As I said I think.
Did not say I know.
Big difference between speculation and accusation. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2008 - 12:30 am: |
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Not really. Sometimes it's just better to keep quite. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2008 - 03:50 pm: |
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UPDATE
Guys, you're gonna have to wait a little longer. Had a nasty high side last weekend and it's left my bike in a less-that-ridable-condition. Once it gets back together, I might have an answer for you. |
Bad_karma
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2008 - 12:35 am: |
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Hope you are OK and waiting for the results when you can.
Joe |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 08:23 pm: |
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The damage estimate is done, we'll see what's up once it's all back together again. Hopefully, you guys won't have to wait much longer. |
Cheddarheads4erik
| | Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2008 - 07:22 am: |
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I am the broken record that says..." Drain out the gas and only use top tier fuels!!" Shell, or Mobil preferably w/o ethanol if you can find them. The new fuels are absolute shit for anything that's power sensitive. Sorry to hear about your highside.
Keep the spaz squid on a leash.  |
Tailspining
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 03:59 pm: |
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Smiley,
I checked my static timing and found it was advanced. So I retarded the timing and the "flat" spot was gone!
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Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 09:29 pm: |
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Just pulled it home from the dealer and spent the afternoon exchanging parts. It's almost ride-ready. Still need to track down a clutch lever and a shifter lever, then I can run it down the road.
How and where can I check the static timing? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 09:43 pm: |
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You can hear the fuel pump spin up when the crank passes the spot where it is supposed to be from the factory, and see the timing mark on the crank through the hole where you removed the plug from... That simplifies things.
Its a really touchy setting... a little movement goes a LONG way. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 06:33 am: |
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It's back on the road! Took it for a shakedown ride yesterday. Nice and easy. Didn't notice the flat spot the way I was riding, but I'll take it out for that soon.
The static timing on the 08's is not adjustable like previous years. There's no hole on the crankcase any longer.
I need to run it down the road to put in into "learn" mode to make sure that everything is set and then I'll take it up through the gears looking for that flat spot. Made another airbox mod and need to account for it. It was stock but I messed up the inner airbox during the crash, so it couldn't stay on like that. I got another one coming though.
If it's still there, I'll be taking it to Fredrick HD for the diagnosis. |
Smiley1eye
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2008 - 02:38 am: |
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LATEST REPORT: I've been running the hell out of it since I got it all put back together. When I was swapping out the airbox, I noticed that it had cracked the inner airbox during the crash.
I took off the top of the airbox liner, and since the bottom base was cracked as well; I did some major surgery to the base.
Basically, I trimmed off everything that didn't hold the air filter on. Left the two bolt holes on the front but removed everything else. I have another one ordered, so I felt that I could experiment with this one. As a side note; I also added a right side scoop.
I was a bit concerned about the engine heat messing up the air intake temp sensor, but I spoke with Joe at Harley of Fredrick and we came to the following consensus: the higher air intake temp causes the ECM to increase the air/fuel ratio and it dumps more fuel. Which artificially makes it run richer. The extra fuel does two things; cools the ignition sequence AND provides more power by having a richer mixture.
Either way, my "flat spot" has diminished by alot.
Chedderhead's advice was good too, I've put nothing in it except 91 octane (sometimes I would put in a higher octane, but never a lower one) and it seems very happy with that.
My intake noise has increased slightly, but this is not undesirable to me. They found that I had knocked loose the idle sensor plug under the airbox base while they were checking things out at the dealership (which happened during the crash, so I feel that this had no effect on the flat spot prior to the crash)Other than that, it would seem that the problem has started to sort itself out.
As of now, I am enjoying my bike immensely and am waiting for someone to figure out all the things the new 08 ECM can do. I keep finding new tricks about the latest batch of improvements from the factory. From my understanding, it is the same ECM as the 1125R. So if the new superbike can do it, so can mine. |
Bombardier
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2008 - 01:03 am: |
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The hotter the rear cylinder the less fuel it will provide so it does not run rich.
Hotter air is less dense and therefore if the same amount of fuel is injected into the hot cylinder the mixture will be richer. |
Azxb9r
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 01:37 am: |
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the higher air intake temp causes the ECM to increase the air/fuel ratio and it dumps more fuel.
The ECM provides a richer mixture at lower temps, and a leaner mixture at higher temps.
The ECM goes into open loop operation @ 5000rpm, which is probably why your dead spot cures itself at that rpm. My stock 07 will intermittently do the same thing untill it is fully warmed up. In closed loop operation, these systems are very slow to respond to changes. |
Id073897
| | Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2008 - 05:12 am: |
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quote:From my understanding, it is the same ECM as the 1125R.
It is not. Maybe some algorithms are the same, but the ECMs are not identical.
Regards,
Gunter |
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