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Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 09:31 am: | 
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It really bugs me that the MCN guys continue to take shots at the 1125R.
One they have only ridden a preproduction bike that was clearly labeled as such.
Second they continue to say it is nowhere near the KTM or Ducati. That is a big DUH! It is thousands of dollars cheaper. 25 to 35% cheaper. Sorta like saying the latest Jaguar sucks because it is not as good as an Aston Martin. Or the latest Corvette is not a Ferrari. Maybe the scribblers at MCN make so much money that an extra 2000 pounds for a toy means nothing to them. For me it is enormous.
Me I will wait unitl Cycle World has all three stock production bikes side by side and does a comparison test.
Not to say the KTM is not a neat bike, it sound like it is very nice and works well. I don't like the look, the 1098 stomps all over it in that regard, but it sound like it has performance equal to the Duc |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 09:59 am: |
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Second they continue to say it is nowhere near the KTM or Ducati. That is a big DUH! It is thousands of dollars cheaper. 25 to 35% cheaper. Sorta like saying the latest Jaguar sucks because it is not as good as an Aston Martin. Or the latest Corvette is not a Ferrari. Maybe the scribblers at MCN make so much money that an extra 2000 pounds for a toy means nothing to them. For me it is enormous.
Price isn't always the deciding factor though. I'll bet a new CBR600RR/R6/ZX6 will be faster around a track than the 1125R but considerbably cheaper, so which then is the better bike?
£2000 difference will not be enough to make someone who wants a KTM change his mind and buy a Buell, or vice versa. They will buy what they want, what they like the look of, and what looks like the better deal.
Until Buell raises it's profile over here in Europe then I'm afraid the 1125R will fall behind because it is seen as less sporting than KTM & Ducati, and in the superbike market that is what it is all about. If Buell want to be taken seriously in Europe then they need to race and support racing in Europe and not just in the USA.
Over here KTM's motto of 'Race Ready' isn't just a clever marketing slogan but a sign of their intentions that they spend a lot of time and money in fulfilling. The KTM Superduke Cup was immensely popular all over Europe and went a long way to convincing punters just how serious KTM are in the big bike market. There is also a KTM 660 Cup supported by the factory, plus their GP 125 & 250 teams, now they will have the RC8 in European Superstock 2008 and WSB 2009. Buell have no racing involvement here in Europe at all (except for a very few privately run club race teams scattered across Europe)
If you were in the market for a sportsbike and knew nothing about Buell or KTM except what you saw on TV and at the races what would you buy?
As I said before, every RC8 allocated to the UK this year is pre sold at full list price before the bikes even arrive this month. Can the same be true for the 1125R?
There is of course one other factor. The launch of the 1125R to the world's press was the most important day in the models life so far, so should have been free of glitches and 'pre-production' excuses. Eager would be buyers aroud the world may base buying decisions on the strength of road tests by magazines, and may even completely discount a particular bike if it receives less than good reports. I was surprised the event wasn't cancelled or postponed until the bikes were ready. You cannot blame the press for reporting on what they are given to ride on the day unfortunately, and to expect them to write a report based on promises of improvements is wishing too much.
Race on Sunday, sell on Monday ;) |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:14 am: |
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If you were in the market for a sportsbike and knew nothing about Buell or KTM except what you saw on TV and at the races what would you buy?
Good point, probably the KTM if I could easily get my hands on either.
Sad but very true.
Can the same be true for the 1125R?
Rhetorical question I'm sure, but the answer very well could have been yes, if Buell had only produced a hand full.
There is of course one other factor...
I'm thinking, but know not for sure, it seems to me Buell were rushed a bit.
Since everyone knows a new Buell is going to be picked to death (rightly or wrongly) by the press, you'd think they'd have that in mind when letting the press go for a ride.
Race on Sunday, sell on Monday ;)
yep |
Elvis
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:30 am: |
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KTM aim to produce 2500 RC8's this year based on deposits already taken. I wonder how that compares with the 1125R?
We'll get a good idea when Harley posts their numbers, but I'd be willing to bet that by the time KTM builds and ships those 2500 bikes, Buell will have sold at least 2 or 3 times as many 1125R's.
The way I look at it, Ducati made a nice step from the 999 to the 1098. KTM made a little larger step from the Super-Duke to the RC8.
Buell made a LEAP with the 1125R. KTM and Ducati may still be in the lead, but Buell is gaining fast.
. . . I'd sure like to see an 1125RR.
You can see from the Moto-ST bike that all it takes is a little bit of plastic to dramatically improve the looks of the 1125R.
I'm not sure why, but that seems to be a big issue with many. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:52 am: |
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You can see from the Moto-ST bike that all it takes is a little bit of plastic to dramatically improve the looks of the 1125R.
I'm not sure why, but that seems to be a big issue with many.
The MotoST bike looks superb, and Buell would sell a lot more 1125R's if they built them like that to start with.
A recent survey revealed that over 80% of punters looking to buy a big sports bike said that, if performance was similar, they would choose a bike based on looks more than any other factor.
Looks count more than you would believe. Ater all look at the Ducati 999, a superb bike that failed to sell just because it wasn't as pretty as its predecessor even though it was a better bike in almost every respect. Or how about the Suzuki TL1000R? Another brilliant bike let down by 'bulbous' bodywork and the reputation of the previous model to overcome (sound familiar?). Most people never even bothered trying them, which is a shame because they were an excellent bike and now attracting cult status (if you can find a good one). |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 10:55 am: |
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7500 1125Rs by years end, sold?
Buell only shipped a little over 11,000 to the dealerships last year, all of those haven't sold.
You really think all the 1125Rs made this year will sell? |
Elvis
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 11:16 am: |
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7500 1125Rs by years end, sold?
Buell only shipped a little over 11,000 to the dealerships last year, all of those haven't sold.
You really think all the 1125Rs made this year will sell?
Well that's the top end of my 5000-7500 range, and I don't know what production plans are, but I think that range is reasonable. Don't forget they sold at least a few last year, and also don't forget they'll be introducing 2009 models in just a few months (hopefully including my 1125RR ).
I'd say the real point is, KTM has been talking about the RC8 for a looooong time. Meanwhile Buell has swept in, introduced the 1125R and begun selling and racing it.
I'd be surprised if, over the coming years, the RC8 outsells the 1125R (or variations therof), but who knows.
I'd say any moto-journalist who regards the 1125R with a yawn is saying more about their own ignorance and/or prejudice than the bike.
I'm sure some can and should still argue that the Ducati or KTM are better bikes . . . I could make some cases for that myself (I'm a big fan of both of those bikes though I think the KTM is ugly as hell). . . but the 1125R is at least as SIGNIFICANT as either of those bikes if not more so. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 11:27 am: |
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Well I certainly hope you're right.
It's just a pretty tall order when a lot of 1125Rs are still on the showroom floor.
Don't forget they sold at least a few last year, and also don't forget they'll be introducing 2009 models in just a few months...
I did, my bad.
To me it's not weather or not they out sell KTM, it's weather or not they sell all of them.
KTM is famous for selling all their bikes.
H-D has come to face the fact that lines are no longer forming for their bikes, so they've cut production.
I just don't want Buell to produce more than they can sell.
There's little worse than seeing new Buells on e-bay. |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 11:43 am: |
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Matt, It must be nice to be in a financial position were $4000 doesn't matter!!!
The 1125 is not a race bike so Buell won't sell it as such. I suspect it is a far better daily rider than either the KTM or th Duc but we shall see.
Buell is doing this differently that either KTM or Ducati because that is what they do. So far it is working, they have gone from selling a few hundred bikes a year to over 10,000 in not much more than a decade. Certainly have been ups and downs and they have significant problems to overcome BUT the trend is in the right direction. |
Trojan
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 12:04 pm: |
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I hope you are right Dave, and it will be interesting to see just how many 1125R's do get sold over here when they eventually start to arrive at the dealerships. We have been told that they will be here next week, which is exactly the same time as the KTM.
Over here dealers are still heavily discounting 'brand new' 2006 Ulysses models to get them out of the door, so I hate to hazard a guess at how many 07 & 08 bikes are parked up in Belgium waiting to be sold. This policy does nothing for current owners residual values or brand loyalty, and I hope the same situation doesn't arise for the 1125R. Better to run out of stock and keep demand high than have to discount them to get them off the floor. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 12:08 pm: |
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Better to run out of stock and keep demand high than have to discount them to get them off the floor.
My point exactly! |
Court
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 12:21 pm: |
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>>>KTM aim to produce 2500 RC8's this year based on deposits already taken.
No one has ever registered or insured a deposit and a deposit is not revenue to a manufacturer.
Buell will sell every 1125R it makes.
The bodywork on the 1125R completely transforms the bike. It's stunning looking and the Italians (who I view as a bellweather of Buell styling) are already seeing a mass move from "ugly" to "it's gorgeous" and are asking for it.
I'd not be the least bit surprised to see a carbon fiber bodied version coming out of Buell. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 03:08 pm: |
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Buell will sell every 1125R it makes.
That's a bold statement.
Hope you're right.
Unfortunately I know of some sitting in a showroom right this very minute, all alone with out anyone half interested in selling them, much less buying.
Sad, but true. |
Krassh
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 03:55 pm: |
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I was shocked to see 2 1125R's at Skip Fordyce in Riverside this last weekend for their "Buell Store" open house. Figured most dealerships in SoCal had none available. Of course did not ask anyone they could have been spoken for but maybe the management wanted some on hand for the open house? |
Elvis
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 04:21 pm: |
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I think Court's comment and the fact that some dealers have bikes while other dealers have customers waiting is that Buell "sells" their bikes to the dealers rather than directly to the customers.
Imagine Dealer 'A' and Dealer 'B'. Dealer 'A' ordered five 1125R's at the dealer meeting and ended up with ten deposits. Dealer 'B' ordered ten bikes but only got two deposits.
Since Dealer 'B' ordered more bikes, Buell is working to get them their bikes quicker even though Dealer 'A' has more actual customers waiting.
In initial stages such as this, such a system can cause some problems, but long term everything evens out.
If a dealer doesn't sell all their bikes, they'll order fewer next time, and if they're selling more than they have, they'll increase their next order.
All told, customers have to be taking delivery of roughly the same number of bikes buell ships in a year even if, in some cases, customers are buying bikes that have been on the floor for a couple months. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 06:06 pm: |
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OK so Buell sells their bikes to dealers, that ain't exactly selling all they make in my book. Of course they'll sell all their bikes that way, kind of misleading if you ask me.
I took it that Court meant that Buell would sell all their bikes to customers, people that wanted to buy them, not to dealers that want to sell them... |
Xb984r
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 08:59 pm: |
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Glitch,I agree with you.I know of one dealer here in Cincinnati selling new 06 0r 07 Ully's for 8 or 9 grand,and have other 06 and 07 Buells still on the floor.I wouldn't be surprised if they have the 1125 they have now well into this year,same for the other Buell dealer here in town. |
Choptop
| | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 02:33 pm: |
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quote:I'll bet a new CBR600RR/R6/ZX6 will be faster around a track than the 1125R
burn the witch!!!!
-insert every insult about your riding ability, family linage, yer dog, your ability to keep friends... on and on... here-
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