| Author | Message | ||
     Buelldyno_guy |
Was at the track today and had to hear from an Ex Buell Tech that these 1125's were having issues with the fuel boiling in the tank. Any body heard anything about this condition??? Just Pi**** Me OFF | ||
| Sgthigg |
I know and heard of certain blends of fuel evaporating at a lower temperature. Japanese gas is proned to this. Even high test in the winter will preeusrize the tank and cause a good "hiss" when removing the cap off of a car. As far as it being an issue for the 1125. 2 conditions would I think have to exist. 1.The bike frame would have to be hotter than the XB's and 2.I think you would also have to run that type of gas. From what I understand it is gas used up north in the winter time. | ||
| Spectrum |
I have heard fluid trickling noises from the fuel tank and wondered if it was the fuel boiling. It only notice it when the tank is low on fuel and the bike is parked after riding it hard. | ||
| 1badbuell |
Could be why my SUV gets better gas mileage | ||
| Interex2050 |
The frame does get hotter then on the XB; after half an hour in crawling traffic, in about 75 degree weather, it got hot enough to leave some welts on my knees... I shall keep an eye out for fuel boiling, worst case scenario I will just put some of that heat insulating reflective tape on the inside perimeter of the frame. | ||
| Dtx |
If you hear some burbling, it might be a crimped fuel vent hose. On the XB's this hose runs between the air box and the air box cover. It could easily get squeezed if not in the right location. Check that first, if the 1125R vent is like the XB's. I noticed it on my Firebolt once and discover the tech did not put the vent hose back in its "groove". | ||
| Blake |
The lightest hydrocarbons comprising gasoline will vaporize at temperatures as low as 80oF. Winter formula gasoline has more of the lighter HC's. Racing fuel is almost ALL very light hydrocarbons. It's why it vaporizes and burns so well. Yes? | ||
| Blake |
Ever wonder why on hot sunny days the AMA racing machines have white or silver reflective covers over the fuel tanks while sitting on the grid before a race? It's to prevent fuel loss due to evaporation/boiling. | ||
| Ceejay |
Apparently nobody told Honda about it  | ||
| Bigblock |
let's not make any lame excuses here. Fuel boiling in your tank is not normal, acceptable or safe. If there is fuel boiling in your tank, there is something wrong that needs to fixed. Atomization of fuel is completely different from fuel vaporization. Proper atomization is important and required. Fuel vaporization is not. | ||
| Blake |
Facts are not excuses. Anyone getting concerned about this baloney is loony. | ||
| Slypiranna |
I agree totally with Blake...I'm currently in Florida, USA and have over 1100 miles in three weeks since new on production #524...no fuel boiling in this one,(or anything else that I've ever ridden or tuned upon in many many years) even over 200'F coolant temps and ambients well into the above most listing here...look outside this subject for whatever is "the" problem...or is this a problem or here say from an EX buell tech? SEE EX in the beginning of this thread. This is perfect example of how rumors start or end. | ||
| Bigblock |
So I just got my bike back today after almost 3 weeks in the shop. It got the venting system replaced, consisting of the tank vent, and the charcoal canister. My bike started out having a hard start problem, a fuel smell, and it had a big hesitation a couple times under brisk but not heavy acceleration where it felt like it died, but then came back up just before I soiled myself( once passing a car(safe and easy pass) and another time merging onto the freeway) I brought it right in, was told probably bad fuel. Then, it started running a bit funny, a bit down on power and throttle response a little soggy. Also lost about 4 mpg. Brought it home and idled her for the oil level check, shut her down let her sit for a minute(till the fans stopped) then thought I would check my fuel level ( also strong fuel smell) Undid the cap, and it was quite pressurized, it popped up into my hand, and a wave of hot fuel vapor hit me in the face. I look down in the tank, and it is bubbling like mad, the fuel is only about 3 inches down, and I can see it bubbling furiously, and it sounds like a tea kettle on full boil. It has been sitting for a few minutes now, and is stilll bubbling like mad, so I call the dealer, get my service manager on the phone(who cant believe it) and stick the phone on speaker down into the filler neck so he can hear it. He believed me then! It has been well over 5 minutes now, and it is still bubbling away like mad. I put my fingers down into the filler neck, and the fumes coing up are quite warm. Not scorch your hand hot, but pretty hot. Needles to say, the dealer sent out a truck for my bike the next morning. He was able to duplicate the symptoms I was having. So, the question is, what the heck happened? At the time, the bike's frame felt pretty hot, not real uncomfortable, but hotter than I would think it should be. And, there was definitely a venting issue, there was pressure in the tank. Measurements taken of the frame down by the exhaust were showing 140 degrees, and I think 104 to 108 on the upper areas of the frame. This is while they were duplicating the bubbling or boiling condition. My dealer has been working with Buell techs and engineers in an effort to find the cause of these problems and fix the issues. He tells me the guys at Buell are way more familiar with him than they would like to be!(Jokingly?) At this point, with the new venting system it appears to have solved the problems. OF course, I rode only 40 miles today taking the long way home, and it was not very hot, lower 60's to upper 50's on the way home. I did get to run her up pretty good a couple times, but didn't beat her too hard on the way home. Temp stayed normal, frame felt warm but not hot at all, seems much improved. Put hand on frame right down by the "trouble spot" and was able to hold it there without discomfort. No hot hard start issue at all, but only tried twice. Power and throttle response seem normal again. No fuel smell. So what really happened? We are not real sure, we thought for sure a fuel boiling issue was happening, and things were pretty darn hot in there. I have been repeatedly assured that this is in no way, and never was, an actual safety issue, as the bike would be way to hot to sit on, and would quit running way before it ever got hot enough- to become unsafe, as in ignite, or whatever. Apparently, according to Buell, the tank pressure caused by the faulty vent causes the frame and fuel temperature to go way up, and also somehow pressurizes the fuel and causing it to bubble. So, the claim is not actual boiling of the fuel, but pressurization and aeration, aggravated by excessive heat build-up, I guess some sort of vicious circle. Myself, personally, that rear exhaust tube passes awful close to the frame and fuel pump down there on the right side, and I suspect this may make things a bit hotter than they could be down there. Now, my dealer tells me they are still working on this with BUell, and that there may be an additional issue with the oxygenated CA winter gasoline aggravating this issue that happened with my bike. So, I suppose there will be further testing done here, I hope I am not their guinea pig!  My guy at the dealer was saying something about possible wrapping of the pipe or additional heat shielding, I guess I am riding it for now and we'll see what happens, I can say that as of today, SO FAR SO GOOD! It sure is nice to get my baby back, I sure did miss her so... | ||
| Blake |
If I read correctly the short and sweet of all of that, the root cause was that your 1125R fuel tank venting system malfunctioned and there is no issue of excessive heating of the fuel in the tank, except maybe possibly but not sure for some very volatile Wintertime gasoline formulations? Thanks for taking time to follow up on that. Anyone else experiencing similar issues should now be well informed of the most likely cause. I hope that puts it to bed. Did I ever comment that some components of gasoline will commence boiling at 80oF? | ||
| Bigblock |
This is actually not quite put to bed yet...( atleast as far as I and my bike are concerned as of right now) My understanding is that Buell is doing more research on this matter. As told to me by my dealer. I am not saying there is an issue with the tank getting too hot, especially with any other bike than mine, but there WAS an issue with the tank getting too hot ON MY BIKE. This has apparently been caused by the venting issue, as stated by Buell, but there is still a possibility that it will still "bubble" when sitting idling for extended periods, as stated by my dealer. I have not had the oppurtunity to test this out. Keep in mind, I have not talked to BUell directly, I have only talked to my dealer, so if I say BUell, it means my dealer told me that is what the factory has told him. With all of 60 miles on my bike, and no real hot weather or traffic to test it in, I would say so far she has performed flawlessy, and it appears the problem HAS BEEN FIXED. I have been told to keep an eye on it, but to not worry, that it is simply NOT A SAFETY ISSUE. This really was my major concern. (And if the factory won't eventually do something to keep the frame a bit cooler down there by the exhaust and fuel pump, I will probably wrap the exhaust myself.) | ||
| Bigblock |
But, yes , Blake, it seems that a faulty venting system was apparently the root cause, but I was told this not certainly, but just like that, "apparently" I really hope you are 100% correct on this one, and so far I would say you are. time will tell. ( I must apologize just a little for all this long winded nonsense, but I have been without my new bike for almost 3 weeks, so I just needed to get my story out, and just vent a bit. Done now, thanks for listening!) | ||
| Blake |
Actually I don't see how increased pressure in and of itself would lead to the fuel boiling. I can see how increased pressure followed by release of that pressure would lead to the boiling. I guess that maybe the vent was leaking slowly enough to allow the peak pressure to subside and commence the boiling. Then when you remove the filler cap, relieving all pressure, mass boiling occurs. Okay, I think that does make sense to me. Sure is strange though. I'm surprised Buell doesn't put some kind of heat barier lining on the inside of the tank/frame. | ||
| Court |
Blake: I'm guessing. I say again . . . I am guessing. But it would appear to me (and either of us could work the calcs) that the boiling is far more likely related to pressure decrease in the old Ideal Gas equation, than temperature. But, I do not know the BP for fuel. If proper venting made the issue go away . . . I'd live with my perpetual curiousity and just keep on riding. Court | ||
| Bigblock |
I was led led to believe part of the problem was the excess pressure was somehow driving up the temperature in the frame, therefore aggravating the problem. I will say, the frame does seem to be running noticeably cooler now. Of course, the following is pure speculation, but it was fun to write... It could be a real multilayered issue, the tank pressure drives up the temperature and boiling, which drives up the tank rpessure, which messes with the fuel injectiion and/or fuel pump operation, which causes a overly rich or lean condition which drives up the header tube temperature, which drives up the frame/fuel temp, etc. Not to mention, my bike is CA, so it has a cat, which may possibly also be causing temp increases to add to the total thermal loading, which also may be caused to run extra hot by any changes in the air/fuel ratio caused by excessive tank pressure combined with excessive fuel temps... Oh, I THINK MY HEAD IS GONNA EXPLODE!!! Apparently, if I let it sit and idle long enough, so the dealer told me, it will boil the gas still, or bubble? it, but I have not put that thoroughly to the test. If that's the case with a properly operating vent system, then it is ALSO temperature related under certain conditions, BUT SO far it has performed flawlessly. I didn't actually talk to the Buell engineers, my dealer did, so exactly what all went on, I don't know, but I believe my dealer gave me as much info as he could. And I am definitely riding, it's hard to keep this one in the garage... ANd hopefully, it's fixed, and we can joke about it over a steak and beer when you guys come on out to CA! Hope you like venison... | ||
| Bigblock |
And I am well thinking of doing some sort of heat barrier or header wrap , possibly a combination , if this issue rears it's ugly head again.. MAybe even if it doesnt, after all, cooler fuel is denser fuel, the 'ol dragracers trick of a cool can on your fuel supply line was always worth some HP, why not keep that frame and fuel as cool as possible, it could only HELP performance. |
