| Author | Message | ||
     Interceptor |
Hey all, I found a bike for sale that has a '67 "generator" Shovelhead 74ci in it. I have no clue about the older engines and am looking for some insight. -It has a new 4 speed, never used. Kick only, engine supposedly has 5k on rebuild. Its a newer rigid setup that is close to completion. What does the Generator part mean? Anything I should know about these? Are parts around?, cheap...expensive? The fella selling it was claiming the engine was worth like 6k. It looked decent, no show engine or anything. thanks | ||
| Nevrenuf |
wish i could help, mines an 83 fxrt 5speed electric start. there's an after market parts dealer in PA that will have just about anything you need for an earlier model bike. can't think of the name off hand but if you want i can get ahold of my buddy tomorrow. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
The 67 shovel has a generator mounted at the front of the motor. I think 1970 was they year they went to the "alternator cone" engine case. J&P cycles should have anything you need. The second engine is a pan, but the case should be neart the same as the 67 you're looking at.   (Message edited by just_ziptab on February 11, 2008) | ||
| Bartimus |
Yes, a simple 12VDC generator mounted where our oil filters are now. It was a very good system, I've never had a problem with my '67 or my '82 sportys. got the same setup on the WLA. Just change out the brushes about every 25,000 miles or so, and you'll be fine. | ||
| Chrisb |
Shovels...... I helped out at a Indy shop for a while. I learned a thing or two about them. If I were to buy one today, the following maintenance would occur automatically even before going to the DMV to get tags. #1 All wiring into the trash can. Build or buy a new harness. Centech makes a nice one the I feel is fairly priced. Plus all the wires are black and are printed with its purpose ex. "horn" or "ignition". #2 Service the forks. more than likey they never have been. #3 Service the wheel bearings. #4 If it has spokes have them checked. And the wheel trued. #5 Engine, Check out the ignition & timing. Change the oil. Check the compression, yea I know it was just rebuilt. Heard that bit more than I care to say. Mostly that means they took the top end off and honed it with a ball hone maybe went as far as to bore oversize and throw in a new set of custom chrome crap piston set. Lapped the valves and new valve seals. Shovelheads can be fun & reliable. Keep in mind that most are well over 30yr old and more than likely have had it lowest cost alternative of maintenance done to it for its entire life.There are exceptions to my comments and sometimes its easy to see others its not. Try not to look at things like paint but more the condition of the sheet metal. Look for stuff that doenst jive. Nice and shiney but right behind of next to it is rusty and oily. | ||
| Mikej |
Some immediately swap out the gen for a magneto system. Had a friend back in the 70's with a Pan/Shovel who did this swap and was happy with it. Only problem was that you didn't need the key to get it started so he had to watch where it was parked. Here's a link to a site with info on various parts: http://www.bikez.info/webshop/bearings_sale_st.php One guy I knew who had a shop back when I had my Knucklehead said that with some of the generators, some would test okay on the bench but would not charge while running. Something about loose windings, so he always double checked the charging circuit at speed. I'd love to get some old bike to monkey with. | ||
| Saintly |
Some immediately swap out the gen for a magneto system. Huh? The generator is your charging system. A magneto is in ignition system. A magneto will not create dc voltage or charge your battery in any way. Maybe you meant "swap for an alternator system" There are companies that make alternators for the "flatside" cases. | ||
| Chopped58 |
Also important, make sure the title vin # matches the numbers on the left case half. If they are aftermarket cases, you may have title problems. Parts are readily available through catalogs and such, but may not be "in stock" at your local bike shop. The generator is mounted on the front of the motor, and is gear driven. Thats why there's that kidney shaped cover on the right case. Sometimes the voltage regulator (at least on my 58 Panhead) is seperate from the generator. When I upgraded my electrical system from 6 volts to 12, I put a generator with a regulator built in. Cleans up the wiring a bit, and no need for more "stuff" bolted to the bike. As far as being a kickstart...well, it's not that big a deal. As long as the timing is set right, points gap good, and clean, and the carb is ok, it's easy. If any one of those things are a bit off...well it can be frustrating. The 67 was available with electric start, so I guess you could convert it if you thought it needed it. (could be expensive depending on your setup)Good luck, let us know what you decide. | ||
| Mikej |
Nope, meant swap for a mag system and get rid of the battery completely and just run everything off the magneto. Hardcore oldschool stuff. = = = = = Edit to add: I should add that the friend with the Pan/Shovel magneto setup had what appeared to be a fully wired battery, but in fact was just the battery shell that he had opened up and gutted and was where he kept assorted stuff squirreled away. Parking meter change, a couple of tools of various assortment and variety, a couple of things that people use as a tool, other stuff acquired via the use of a tool of sorts. Creative friend, good to know, good to be on the good side of. (Message edited by mikej on February 12, 2008) | ||
| Saintly |
Mikej, A bike with no generator or alternator would only be good for Drag race use only. A magneto will only make spark for the plugs. With no battery or generator, the engine will run, but you'll have no lighting, horn, startermotor etc. | ||
| Mikej |
He had lights, horn, brake lights, and ran many thousands of miles both day and night with his setup, all electric was just powered with the magneto. Bikes were kick start only back then for the most part. (Message edited by mikej on February 12, 2008) | ||
| Chopped58 |
Indian Larry legacy sells a magneto that mounts where the generator would be...not sure if it powers lights or not... http://www.indianlarry.com/store/home.php/home.php ?cat=26 | ||
| Saintly |
Mikej, Sorry but someone mis-informed you. I actually have dabbled in this "hardcore oldschool stuff" that you speak of. By the way, thanks for not spelling school with a "k".  Anyway, here's a picture of my 1967 XLCH. It's kickstart only and has no battery, this is how it came from the factory. It does have a generator, regulator, and a capacitor in order to have electricity. The magneto only makes spark for the plugs.  Here's a picture of my 1949 EL panhead engine. It is also a kickstart bike. It has an alternator conversion, regulator, and a battery for electric. I changed the factory points/condenser/coil ignition to a magneto setup.  Without a charging system, the lights on the panhead would deplete the battery within an hour and there would be no power for the lights or any electrical acessory. These magnetos do not produce voltage. You can check into it if you like. Joe Hunt magneto's in california has a nice website, and Morris in NJ does as well. | ||
| Saintly |
Chopped58, That I.L. magneto is actually, an old racers (hillclimbers & flat-trackers) design. This is because racers didn't need power for lights etc. they only needed spark to run the engine. It is currently being re-produced my Morris Mags in NJ. Here's a link to their products page, if you scroll down nearly half way, you'll see it. It's called the "XR" mag: http://www.morrismagneto.com/products.html Notice also what the description says: H-5 Generator hole mounted magneto Like the H-D factory XR race bikes. Primarily for alternator/generator motors, since the generator port is not used. Impulse Coupled for easy starting with kick or electric, and it looks alot better than that oil filter/fake generator! The key is "primarily for alternator/generator motors". If you install an alternator on the engine, then you can use this mag in the old generator hole. OR if you are racing only. They do not power the lights. | ||
| Mikej |
You're probably right. 30+ years of time can make the memory get a bit foggy. Maybe he did have a generator still on that bike of his. Or maybe his magneto had some sort of additional components inside of it, but it did look a lot like the one in your Panhead pic. I need to get back into this old stuff. Makes for a good stress reliever. I'll look up the Joe Hunt and Morris sites later this morning. I do remember he was playing with ideas to run his tail light with flashlight batteries for when the bike wasn't running, which happened a little too often with his bike back then. | ||
| Mikej |
I do remember his playing with his magneto before he put it on the bike, zapped himself quite a few times. | ||
| Ftd |
Mags are for eliminating the battery. The charging system remains (for a street bike with lights, etc). | ||
| Saintly |
zapped himself quite a few times Ha ha! Yeah, that's easy to do Mike. Just a small spin of the shaft will getcha! P.S. As far as foggy memory goes, you're not alone! I gave someone on the XBoard bad advice a few weeks ago, when they asked about buell cylinders. I had shovelhead on the brain when I answered them, even though I've had 3 XB topends apart in the past year.... thankfully others corrected me & got the guy the right info. (Message edited by saintly on February 12, 2008) | ||
| Chopped58 |
Gotcha Saintly, I use a generator and a magneto on my bike, wasn't sure about that generator hole setup. Nice bikes by the way, any more pics? Sorry for the thread hijack Interceptor | ||
| Saintly |
any more pics? Here's one of my pan in Laconia a few years back:  I dont have any nice clear shots of the XLCH at the moment, but he's on of my buddy Ed's shovelhead:  That picture was taken at the hardtail party in Menomonee Falls, WI We ride out there every august for that event. BTW Interceptor, Ed's shovelhead is a 1970 & up style. Like what just_ziptab posted in his first pic. (ie. not a generator shovel) I rebuilt & stroked that motor to 86" It's very quick! | ||
| Chopped58 |
Very nice bikes, our bikes are kinda similar..  | ||
| Interceptor |
Great info. I do know that I have to match the engine to the title, I think that is up to '69 right? This bike did have an open primary with what appeared to be the stock primary chain(s). Unsure if this is good/bad/neither. Would't that have to be oiled? I believe it needs a new wiring harness. It had nice tins, new silver paint. Anyone have an opinion on what the '67 Shovel engine would be worth in decent condition, not needing really anything except ignition? Also has brand new 4 speed. I'll keep ya posted and post a pic if I can get one. | ||
| Just_ziptab |
There are magnetos........ and there are magneto generators. Lot's of dirt bikes/snowmobiles out there with mag/gen systems.................lights,horn, the works.......with no battery. The Harleys had two separate units instead of combo mag/gen unit. | ||
| Leftcoastal |
I rode a '68 "generator" shovel for 17 years, plus have owned about half a dozen other pre-alternator bikes. How much is the asking price on this unit you're looking at? The 69 and earlier shovels have a 'cache' for a lot of H-D guys, and I think they are the best looking motors for the 'bobber' look that is so popular these days. If the stuff you are looking at is completely apart, you're gonna have a bitch of a job making it into a working machine, if you aren't VERY familiar with all of the crap it takes to get all of the mismatched and scrounged-up swap meet rejects that most of the 'basket case' bikes consist of these days. Shovel top ends are good for about 20,000 miles, MAX! Learn to do your own top-end rebuilds! Also the valve seats will need to be up-graded for current fuel formulas. (if that hasn't been done already - ASK about that!) If it's a rigid frame, the mileage isn't all of that big of a problem, as nothing is as effective for preventing high mileage as PAIN! Post some photos - let's see if it's a good deal of just someone's migraine looking for a new host! Other than for looks, there is NO valid reason for a magneto on a generator shovelhead. They DO look really cool! It's not a race bike, Basic design limits the horsepower-to-weight ratio, and there is only so much you can do to a shovel to gain power, and still have a street-ridable bike. AL | ||
| Panhead_dan |
Back to the original post; These bikes are a lot of fun but it's a labor of love. There is a learning process to go through that includes some pitfalls. An example of things that can go wrong would be wallered out main bearing bosses in the cases. Fixable but a pain. Charging system problems. I had to learn this one the hard way. It's so simple, really. Lubrication system gremlins. All too common and totally (almost) curable. There's more but you get the idea. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you are considering this bike, be advised that either you shine it up and just park it and look at it or be prepared to learn a lot about it and become intimately familiar wit it. Anything in between will likely result in you and the bike hating each other. Of course, I'm not saying you won't anyway. | ||
| Saintly |
there is NO valid reason for a magneto on a generator shovelhead I can think of one real good one. There is a learning process to go through that includes some pitfalls.......Charging system problems. There it is! Panhead Dan hit it right on the head. When my Pan had points & coil ignition, it was dependent on a good charging system for spark to keep the engine running. This was where I had the most issues. I went thru 2-3 regulators per season. And worn generator brushes & dirty commutator strips would plague me. The average ride went as follows: 1. get 50 miles from home 2. have charging system crap out 3. lose power to ignition system & stall 4. push bike many miles Since going to a magneto, I always get home! My charging system can fail, my battery can die, hell my battery can fall out of the bike and get dragged for miles by the positive cable, but the engine still runs! I kickstart the engine & away I go. Magnetos are stone cold reliable! I've got mags on every bike I own except for the buell. | ||
| Panhead_dan |
with | ||
| Leftcoastal |
Well....Yea, there is THAT reason, I guess! The stock (65A?) generator and points-type regulators can definitely leave yer ass in the dark. (usually quiet, too, as it won't start, then the rain comes) The older 3 brush units (thru '64, I think) were MUCH worse! What can you really do with only 6 volts, anyway? I forgot the name of the company, but the aftermarket generator/regulator units (the one with the black finned regulator where the chromed cover usually lives) is the CURE for the whole thing. I put one on my 68 and never had another charging glitch up to selling it about 3 years later. AL | ||
| Panhead_dan |
I actually met "Miss Morris Magneto" on the phone one time. She was the customer service rep who helped me fix the mag on my pan. She knows her stuff about a mag. I shit you not. | ||
| Brumbear |
I am glad I read this thread I have an old 51 servi car that has an coil ign system and a customer with an old lincoln welder with a continental flat head and a broken magneto now I have options Thanks guys |
