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Sgthigg
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 10:57 pm: | 
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Haha!!
I agree apples and oranges.
I think the funny thing is, one will never truly be able to know until he owns both. Not ride his buddies 1 or 2 times but ride it as often as he does his Buell.
If not we sound like the ricers trying to arm chair qtr back the situation.
Isnt there a way to figure a "true" power or something to that effect by multiplying hp X torque=?
Kind of like I X E=Watts.
I am interested in seeing what that woud equate to. |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 11:02 pm: |
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Nice Idea - Horque? Torsepower?
I think it should be Horque
(Message edited by danger_dave on February 06, 2008) |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 12:21 am: |
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No Rocket, you chose to be selective and obtuse in your reading comprehension in order to disparage Buell at any and every opportunity.
Im not sure they have the same top HP,but the last time I was @ the track I saw a 04 12R stomp a cbr600 in the turns and keep-up and/or pass the cbr600's in the straights.
This was ONE persons OBSERVATION. Did the person on the 600 suck? I don't know. They might have. You are basically saying that this person DID NOT see this and that the statement they are making is FALSE.
Some might take that to mean that you were calling them a liar.
Is that why I lapped 3 of them in my 2nd race?
Thats good to know. Next time I will go slower....
Again, this is one person's particular experience. Maybe the people on 600s sucked and couldn't ride. If he passed these people in his last race, there must have been some reason. By your statement, you are AGAIN questioning the direct statement of an individual's experience.
He too might take this as you calling him a liar.
Then there's my statement:
Some of the folks I ride with here ride 600 and liter bikes. They are much faster in the straights. It's fine.
In the turns I have two advantages, I can carry corner speed, and I can drive out of the turn harder.
For which you COMPLETELY omitted the qualifier statement:
Their comment was that they couldn't believe how easily the Buells dove into corners and how well they catapulted out the other side.
Why?
Because it didn't support your singular, "Buell Sucks", point of view.
This statement was made by a guy I ride with name Rick (Bandit Master). He's a pudgy 55 year old guy that does shit on a clapped out 1996 Bandit 1200 that you would not believe. I didn't say it. HE said it.
Are you saying that he DIDN'T? Are you calling ME a liar?
Even so, NONE of these statements make the point that corner speed would the the ONLY deciding factor to make an XB faster than a CBR600. NONE of these statements make the point that CBR600s are bad handling bikes.
Your singular view point is well documented here, Sean. We understand that you hate Buells, that XBs are the biggest pieces of shit ever to adorn the name motorcycle, and that those who are enthusiastic about their Buell are dim, shallow, inexperienced, naive individuals who given the opportunity to hear you would immediately dispose if their Buell and buy a Ducati.
We get it.
You need to decide, whether BadWeb is the place for you. Seems to me that your positions are perennially at odds with 99.9% of those here.
(Message edited by ft_bstrd on February 07, 2008) |
Cyclonedon
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 12:52 am: |
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Fats, I couldn't have said it better!
Nice job!!! |
M2nc
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 01:59 am: |
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I do not know why sport bikes always have to be judged by which one is faster. The complete rider experience by the majority on a bike does not seem to be a major reason for motorcycle ownership. Its all about "mine's bigger than yours!" and not enough about how the bike behaves overall. Most of us here choose the latter, but we are a small percentage of the riding community around the world.
A present day top shelf 600cc I-4s makes 20hp more than an XB12. They also have the advantage of twice the RPM range which gives them the ability of reaching high top speed. I would gather that on most road courses the 600cc I-4 is faster due to the straight line advantage. But on the street, the 600cc I-4 is at a disadvantage when riding anywhere near the legal limit. I have proven that to my 600cc I-4 riding buddies. 0-80mph WOT my Ulysses matches them or leaves them. Its north of 80mph where the 600cc I-4 start to hit its stride. From stop light to stop light, I let out the clutch of the Uly and give it moderate gas and leave all my 600cc I-4 buddies. We are not racing just riding normally. They end up having to rev the crap out of their bikes just to keep up.
In the corners, I have never been bested by 600cc I-4, though I am not saying the Uly is better handling. I do not believe that. The Uly sacrifices handing for suspension travel and comfort on the bars. I will say the best handling machine I have been on to date was a Firebolt. I have limited experience this is true, but to date, the Firebolt was the most transparent bike I have ever ridden and the speeds I was carrying through corners with out effort was scary.
I have no concern in saying that even a top shelf rider on a 600cc I-4 would have a tough time keeping up with me on a Firebolt on a road like Wolf Pen Gap. On tight mountain roads these I-4s are all thumbs. They make power up high but can not reach their peak power until its time to slow down. They usually end up rushing into the corner having to trail brake in the corner and loose the perfect line out, compounding the problem of trying to exit the corner anywhere near as well as the Firebolt.
So which is better between the Firebolt and the 600cc I-4? The one that fits your taste and riding style. Racers are all about the fastest bike. Most moto-journalist are ex-racer. So it lends to the feeding frenzy that puts the Buell down because its not fast enough. I was talking to my buddy at work last night. He has a Blast and just bought an SV1000. Here is a bike that is one of the best values on the street, but it too suffers the fate of the Buell. An SV1000 cost about the same as a top shelf 600cc I-4 and can match it in the HP game. The Suzuki dealer was practically giving the bike away. A one year left over they could not sell. Why? Because its not deemed the fastest.
That said, on the street I have read reviews of V-twins with comments like, "though down on power I kept finding myself running faster than expected," or "the motor catapults you from a stop light." My favorite recent one was describing a flat torque curve and the ability to better control power to the rear wheel as "a poor man's traction control."
Different STROKES for different strokes. I love my Uly and M2. They are for me. I can ride on the street like a sane person, or chase the sport bike guys down twisty roads. It's all about ride quality and not speed quantity and that's the best bike for me. |
Spdkls
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 02:30 am: |
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i understand the argument.
i didn't spend the money for a buell for the speed factor. i could of easily bought a metric for less and been faster. i bought a buell for what it is. the same reason i bought a vw. its the lifestyle. the connection one gets with the vehicle. its like going to car shows. every honda that shows up looks the same. just rows and rows of civics the only thing different is the color. the vw scene is trying to have one of a kind.
thats why i bought a buell rarity is the key. you can make one your own. anybody can got out and buy a busa and run mid 10's in the 1/4.
i am not a lemming!!!! |
Daves
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 08:53 am: |
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I passed Troy Frankenfurter once |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 09:16 am: |
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I didn't buy my Buell to be like an I-4... I bought it to be a Buell and it does an excellent job!! |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 09:18 am: |
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Power (watts or horsepower) is the right measure of power. There are a lot of other complicating factors though.
The part you miss with "My YZGSZR600RR makes 120 HP" is under what conditions.
What we need is the full dyno plot, which shows the power being made at different RPMs. You can then look at that versus what RPM you are typically riding at, and see what horsepower you will experience when you whack the throttle at that speed.
Except that you don't really ride RPM,s you ride mile per hour. So you really need the gearing taken into account, so the bottom of that HP plot (in addition to RPM) should include MPH.
That plot would *really* dissapoint some people that think they have high horsepower bikes. First gear, 35mph to 65mph acceleration (you know, the speed range where 99% of your street riding acceleration takes place) is them on a 40HP bike. If their lucky. 10mph to 40mph? You are riding a bike making less power then a KLR. 
Read this months cycle world where they compared the R6 to the 600RR. They were on a drag strip and got bored and annoyed trying to wind the motors up to 8000 RPM and feather the clutch just right to be able to get decent launch for their quarter mile times.
It was alraedy a PITA on the track, what do you think its going to be like on the street?
Riding a 600CC inline four around on the street at an RPM where it is making decent power makes you look like some kind of boy racer idiot, IMHO. And I say this as a guy that did it for 3 years (1991 Yamaha Radian 600cc I4). It was cool for the first month... and then got as tedious to me as it no doubt already was to everyone around me.
I enjoyed listening to a wound out I4 at Mid Ohio. But it sounds stupid when they do it down the street out front.
Then there is the whole "at the crank" or "at the wheel" measurement. Your drivetrain eats up a lot of power. Then there is the whole "dyno variability" issue... its easy to get a "real" power reading, but that is not what a dyno plots. Engines make less power (a lot less power) as heat goes up, and as you elevation above sea level goes up. The dyno's have mathematical formulas to guess what the *real* power they measured would have been if you were riding at sea level on a cool day.
Except you aren't riding at sea level on a cool day, you are 2000 feet above sea level (or whatever) and its 95 degrees out. So your 110 HP motor is not really making 110 HP, even if you have wound it out sufficiently to annoy every cop in a 5 mile radius.
A "current HP" gauge on the instrument cluster would deflate a LOT of egos and clear up a lot of misconceptions... except that the Japanese engineers would probably make sure that reads wrong as well (like their tachs and speedometers). |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 09:51 am: |
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This is easy. . .
Everybody who has been on a drag strip the last month raise your hand.
Everybody who has ridden on the street the last month raise your hand.
Take the roughly 15,000 folks on badweb and multiply times the 1st number divided by the second and get back to me.
Interesting how many folks who can buy anything they want opt for motorcycles that are not the most powerful.
I still laugh . . .when I sent my, now fire breathing, S2 to be rebuilt it was making a whopping 52HP and I'd just returned from riding from NYC to East Troy and back and having and absolutely wonderful time.
To understand horsepower, which can be a good thing, I need to know what you want it for . . . |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 11:20 am: |
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Dave S, nice to see you here!!
Face it guys,it is ALWAYS going to be the rider,not the bike that is the deciding factor. There are those that can make anyone of us look bad riding a clapped out SR 500.With virtually all of the motorcycles today the number of folks who can actually use ALL of that HP is quite small(if we can swallow our egos to admit it). So all of this arguing amounts to nothing more than our own biases and likes.
Of course,for Rocket it is because he loves to argue!! |
Buellerandy
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 11:53 am: |
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Well put fireman. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 12:04 pm: |
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Well Jim, I for one can use every single horsepower my *bike puts out. I have two throttle positions, closed, and pinned, and the bike is almost always at 8000+ RPM.
*On the KLR 250, with all of 17 RWHP at redline...
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Rotorhead
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 12:17 pm: |
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You cannot judge a bike by just a few characteristics HP, TRQ, SPEED, LOOKS and call it better than another. You must compare the WHOLE motorcycle ownership aspect. I would love to see a full and extensive long-term evaluation between the XB12 owners and a CBR600 owners considering overall satisfaction and length of ownership and riding experience. A CBR owner might look to buy a new bike that is faster, more HP, new paint after 2 years of ownership. Buell owners look to add another Buell to the garage. You may find that there would be more miles driven on the XB12 than a CBR600 over the time of ownership.
Turn the tables on the CBR600.
Would you hop on a CBR600 and ride across the states 600 mile day after day and still enjoy throwing your leg over the bike after day 3, or moan and rub your rear end as you do it????
Take any model Buell made and it's owner and they would jump at the chance to ride that much every day.
I am biased toward my Buell, but I would rather push my fully loaded 550Lb ULY across the US than ride/own a CBR600. |
Rainman
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 12:51 pm: |
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A buddy of mine has KTM Duke and can ride it like it was meant to be ridden. I have a Blast and my own riding style after 20-plus years of commuting. We went out on a winding Blue Ridge road and had a great time together.
He didn't seem to mind waiting up for me every now and then and I didn't mind watching him pull wheelies and disappear
The point being, if I can find one here and God knows I'm trying to, is that I can use all 30 hp in my Thumper. He can use all 110 hp in his Duke.
We are happy.
Uh, in a purely platonic kind of way...
I think I'm going to end this post now. |
Firemanjim
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 04:18 pm: |
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Reep,I can almost do the same--with my DR-650,and proved it in the rain at Laguna when I ran away from my instructor.Gotta love those high HP machines!
What a difference it will be when I get on that monster I am building!! |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 04:38 pm: |
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I used to be a major league bench racer myself. Having a fast motorcycle is important in the middle of a heated conversation about how fast your motorcycle is.
I couldn't care less now. Your motorcycle is faster than mine? Hey... good for you!
See you at the bench races. |
Iamike
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 09:52 pm: |
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I may be wrong but it doesn't make any difference what the rpm is, if the hp is the same and weight and wind drag the same, then wouldn't top speed be the same? And since wind drag is exponential you have to greatly increase hp to increase top speed.
It is the hp that keeps you at the speed and the torque that gets you to that speed?
When I had my '97 Blackbird that dynoed at 85'# & 142hp, I never really rode it hard. Even though the torque was the same as my S3 (well maybe not since one was crank & one was wheel), it just wasn't as enjoyable to ride as the S3.
I guess it was smoother, sounded great with the Two Brothers exhaust and looked great, it just didn't have the soul of the Buell.
Isn't it funny how some people just like to rain on a parade? |
New12r
| | Posted on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 07:26 am: |
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I got passed by a guy on a 650 Hausburg motard at tally this weekend, all 50hp of it. I was on the uly at the time.
Indans not the arrow.... |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 08:56 am: |
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I've been at Shakey's "Bunch-of-lunch" (all you can eat - pizza, chicken, potatoes, salads)
I could only eat a couple slices of pizza, yet eating the SAME LUNCH on the SAME DAY, I saw a guy who would take a half dozen slices at a time to his table and finish them ALL in the same amount of time as I did to eat my two!
I don't understand!!?? Same food, same day, different outcome... HOW CAN THAT BE!!?? |
Blublak
| | Posted on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 09:58 am: |
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I really have to agree with New12r...
I'm no great racer. I dont' play one on TV and I didn't sleep at Holiday Inn Express last night.. But..
A little while back I was on VIR North with my XB9R and during one session a gent on a new(ish) ZX6R was right next to me. Control released us both and I went out and had fun. After the session, the ZX6 guy came to me and stated that he could keep up with me fine on the first lap (my warm up) but by lap 3 he was unable to match my pace. He wanted to know what I had done to the bike to make it so fast.
By some peoples thinking that would tell them an XB9R, No engine work but with a Drummer SS, factory race ecm and 12 air box is faster then the ZX6R. What it told me was I have more experience then he does and was able to ride the course more consistently, not that my bike is any more or less capable then his.
Same track, two days later.. A buddy on an SV650 lapped me in one session. Was I upset? No, he's a racing license certification trainer and I now he's got skills that are much greater then mine. Was I able to learn anything from him? Yeah a few things, just from chatting. Ran my best times there at the end of that day. Hell he could probably run me down on a Ninja 250 without any problem.
Yeppers, it's the Indian, not the Bow..
(I'll have to keep that analogy handy) |
Spdkls
| | Posted on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 10:51 am: |
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come on now, its always the bow...lol. here's a prime example. it was definitely the car's fault. still my fav vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNVrMZX2kms
but back on topic. the industry in general causes all these problems about what is faster. look at ricky carmichael, he was told there was no way he could win sx on a suzuki, cause honda and kawasaki were so dominate. well look what he did on that suzuki. back to back sx and one mx title. so once again; rider is more important. |
Steveford
| | Posted on Friday, February 08, 2008 - 11:00 am: |
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I had a guy on a Suzuki Burgman (or whatever that thing's called) blow me off and I was on my X1.
Okay, I was going slow because of speed traps. He was probably stoked, it just made me laugh.
Are the Buells faster than something else? If I tried to use all the power the Buells make, I'd be in jail or dead. That's fast enough. |
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