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Ccryder
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 08:11 am: | 
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Sean:
In addition to the purchase price difference, you have to look at the total cost of ownership and availability of service. This is just my practical side showing it's head.
I like Ducati's and, have owned 2 1/2, over the years. With my annual mileage on 2 wheels in the 20,000-25,000 mile range I just feel the Ducati is going to cost more to own than the 1125r. While traveling, there are many more H-D/ Buell dealers than Ducati dealers so if, I had an issue, I would stand a much better chance getting it quickly resolved with the Buell.
This same rationale is what I have seen driving BMW owners to the ST1300 over the past 2-4 years.
Time2Work
Neil S. |
Spectrum
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 08:12 am: |
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Rocket - It's not just the price of the bike, but the total cost of ownership. The 1098 is in a higher insurance group, and maintenance is more expensive. I realize Ducati has made changes that have reduced the cost of maintenance, but perception is and I'm assume it's realistically more expensive still than most bikes.
Bottom line is when you look at total cost of ownership. The 1125R is affordable by the average Joe. While the 1098 is more in the exotic range and generally only bought by folks that don't really have to consider cost.
Ah I see Ccryder beat me to it on the total cost of ownership.
(Message edited by spectrum on February 01, 2008) |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 08:55 am: |
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Rocket - It's not just the price of the bike, but the total cost of ownership. The 1098 is in a higher insurance group, and maintenance is more expensive. I realize Ducati has made changes that have reduced the cost of maintenance, but perception is and I'm assume it's realistically more expensive still than most bikes.
Not to mention the wait for parts. It took me a month and half to get a turn-signal from Italy once.
I agree with Rocket. If you really want the the 1098, you'll pay the extra. The same reasoning can be used in going from an 848 to 1098 or 1098 to 1098S or 1098S to 1098R . . .
But Buell is now offering a viable alternative. When I bought my Ducati, Buell was more expensive. If I had really wanted a Buell, I could have found the extra cash, but I preferred the Ducati - without consideration of price.
At this point, I think the opposite is true. I prefer the Buell. It's more unique, it's the first, true, American sport-bike. It's what I've been saying I've wanted for the past 30 years, it's got less of a snotty, elitist vibe (do any of us really want to own the brand Tom Cruise buys?) . . . so - with price not an issue - I prefer the Buell.
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Brad1445
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 09:24 am: |
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I would want that Ducati RR even if George Bush owned one. Even if Oprah had rubbed her naked body on it. I would take it if it was covered in scorpions. I would exchange the last five years of my life. I would perform oral sex on Hillary Clinton for that bike. If you do not want a Ducati RR, you do not understand bikes.
I said want, not justifying the price. |
Court
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 10:39 am: |
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I'm just lusting over that KLR . . . I'd buy Bill a hamburger to ride that.
I'm a simple guy. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 10:43 am: |
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 Brad
I understand why you say that, but frankly I'd take the 1098R over the Desmosedici.
I love twins. Ducati's history is all about desmodromic L-Twins. Light and lean as opposed to the wider, bulkier competition.
To me the 1098R rather than the Desmosedici is the ultimate expression of what Ducati has always been to me.
(Message edited by elvis on February 01, 2008) |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 12:25 pm: |
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You are welcome to ride it any time Court, and thats saying something, as I have heard what you can do to an otherwise perfectly good motorcycle 
You should see it now... I cleaned and tuned a lot since that picture was taken. And I added $30 worth of generic aluminum bark busters with plastic wind deflectors, an $8 GPS mount, and a brand new set of $6 grips. Oh, and $100 of stainless brake parts and bleeders. That increased my total investment in the bike by nearly 25%, but I think it was worth it ;)
And the kick-start only would be a perfect addition to a Gotham Urban Survival device... that, and the "KLR Spec" brakes, which make it easy to charge when cooler heads might retreat...
And that leads nicely into answer Rockets question about $4000 USD, I am probably not the rule, but I have a good job with good pay, but 4 kids and a wife and we are single income, living in a nice 4 bedroom middle of America home. $4000 is about what I think the *entire* bike should be, I had to stretch to hit the $8000 my new 05XB9SX cost me. $19,000 is not what my motorcycle should cost me, its just a little under what my last minivan cost me (which has to last me 150,000 miles and 8 years or I am in serious trouble).
I have everything I need and I am blessed beyond measure, but a $10,000 motorcycle is probably out of my reach, much less a $15k or $20k one.
I'm loving my $600 KLR though! You should see the parts I got for it off ebay last week for $1 bids... |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 01:12 pm: |
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Thank you Bill. That was the point of my question.
£2000 here is a lot of money, but it is achievable money for a relatively good earner. 4 kids and a mortgage will hurt you though.
As for ownership cost. I was looking at it from the perspective one buys a 1098 for fun, and little else. So when comparing the 1125 for fun only, that's why I wondered what a $4k extra burden would be like.
On my three visits to the States, I observed many things that suggest you have a cheaper cost of living than we do, but maybe we earn higher relatively. I don't know. I'm broke, lol.
Cheap in the US
Petrol
Food
Levis
Airfare
Beef Jerky
Hotel Rooms
Vehicles
UK COST.......
Petrol - most expensive in Europe app $10 4.5ltr
Food - expensive.
Levis - expensive, avg $90 upwards.
Airfare - expensive. Especially internal flights.
Beef Jerky - hard to find but not impossible.
Hotel Rooms - expensive.
Vehicles - most expensive in Europe.
Rocket |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 01:37 pm: |
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I think anyone who really wants a 1098 will find a way to pay the difference. I don't think people will be buying the 1125R because they really wanted the Ducati but couldn't afford it.
If anything, those people will probably buy the 848.
. . . but, believe it or not, there are actually people who choose not to buy Ducatis. In fact, I would guess that more than 95% of people who buy motorcycles buy something other than a Ducati. Harley Davidson sells more motorcycles than Ducati, and most of their models are more expensive than Ducatis (Yes, I find that one hard to believe myself).
Here's one for you. When I was at the Ducati factory several years ago, I noticed that they had an employee parking lot. And, not surprisingly, they had a section just for motorcycles and scooters.
. . . and in that section, there were parked, not one, but several Harley Davidsons.
I thought that was one of the most ironic things I've ever seen. |
V74
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 01:44 pm: |
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got to say i am really getting a bit fed up with this thread,so i am going to stir it some more for the hell of it,wait till we get a 1125r side by side with a 1098.
most of what rocket says is spot on,and i am not saying this because he,s a fellow brit.
both the 1125r and the 1098 are at the start of there development,both engines are under stressed,
i expect that in 2010 the 1125r will produce 148 at the crank at 10000rpm and the 1098r 182 at 9950,
in 2012 the 1125r will make 150 at the crank at 10200 rpm and the 1098r 184 at 10150 rpm,this is ONLY from the increase in revs that are well within both engines capability,
a race version of the 1125r should produce 192 hp at the crank at 11200rpm,167 rwhp,with a 1200 engine 200 hp at the crank with 174 rwhp,buell must get this extra 74cc from a larger bore,dont change the stroke.
a 1098r on bsb/wsb grids this year should be making 205-210 hp at the crank at 11100rpm with major engine rebiulds every 2 race meets,thats a new engine.
what do you make of that |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 04:19 pm: |
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what do you make of that
You forgot to make up the rwhp of the 1098r. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Friday, February 01, 2008 - 04:31 pm: |
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I still think that with the 118HP limit set on MotoST that all the talk about the higher limits of the bike are worthy of the Barroom or Starbucks.
I believe the bike is destined for endurance racing far more than sprints.
Two different animals altogether.
Yeah, a greyhound and a cheetah each have 4 legs... not much difference between the two of them either.
(Message edited by slaughter on February 01, 2008) |
M2nc
| | Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 09:44 am: |
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If I truly liked the more expensive motorcycle considerably more that any other motorcycle, I would save up for the more expensive bike. I did when the Uly came out. I was looking at the V-Strom before the Uly came out. It is about the best bang for the buck in motorcycling in my opinion. I just did not like the faring styling. Then the Uly comes out and I just had to have it. I paid the $2500 more and have never regretted it.
That said, if I would like the 1098 just a little better, I would buy the 1125R. It boils down to perceived value. Does your perceived value justify the extra cash. If you think the 1125R is just butt ugly, its value to you is very low. So the 1098's extra cost is easy to justify. If you like the mean looks of the 1125R and its close to or comparable to the sexy looks of the 1098, then it would be tough to justify the extra cash. |
V74
| | Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 09:54 am: |
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ok fresnobuell,when i know the amount of power loss from the drive train i will work it out,if we assume a similar amount as the 1125r this will give 178 to 183 rwhp.though i would have thought ducati corse would make the drive train a bit more efficient than this,its not hard to predict what these bikes will do. |
M2nc
| | Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 10:48 am: |
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Yeah, a greyhound and a cheetah each have 4 legs... not much difference between the two of them either.
I saw a National Geographic recreation of a real life event where a Grey Hound ran over 100 miles and back to rescue its owner. The Grey Hound's owner was a Park Ranger in Africa who would patrol the park with a Cessna. The plane lost power and crashed with the ranger and the dog in it. The ranger broke his leg in the crash and could not move. He ordered the dog to go back to base and get help. The base was over a hundred miles away.
During the making of the recreation, they had the grey hound running through the park. Unexpectedly a Cheetah tried to catch the dog. It was hilarious. The dog is running having fun the feels a pat on his ass. He looks back to see the Cheetah is right on him, but just can't manage the speed and the take down. The dog literally tucks his back side in and runs for his life. The Cheetah though faster could not maintain the speed but for a few seconds. The next shot in the film is from behind the Cheetah stopped on a hill looking at the dust train of the Grey Hound still running several miles away.
So which bike is the Cheetah and which is the Dog? |
V74
| | Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 12:20 pm: |
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in my view the 1098 has the edge in looks and performance and the 1125r on value for money,but if i wanted value for money and performance i would never have bought my M2 which i will never sell,because its just what i wanted,lets just get these two bikes on the same track at the same time with two riders who swap between bikes to get the result of whos got the bigger stick. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Saturday, February 02, 2008 - 06:30 pm: |
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So which bike is the Cheetah and which is the Dog?
Just wait til the endurance season starts in Daytona. |
Spectrum
| | Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 01:03 pm: |
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My background is in IT and specifically I've spent a lot of time in data and quantitative analysis. That being said, this thread got the best of my curiosity because I knew very little about Dyno's and how they measure torque and horsepower. So I did a little research to educate myself. As a result I have a curiosity around some unanswered question that I hope you engineer types can shed some light on the for me.
I understand that dynos measure torque and calculate BHP, The BHP formula being "bhp = torque x rpm/5252" The 5252 constant is what has my curiosity peaked. I understand that it is the 5252 constant that drives all HP and torque plots to cross at that rpm. I am aware of the formula that the 5252 constant was derived from ("5252 = (550 x 60)/2pi"). I also understand that the 550 represent 1 gross Horsepower. What I don't understand is the number 60 and why you divide by 2 pi. As a result, I don't understand the thinking behind using this particular constant. I do understand the need for a constant in terms of deriving a net horsepower number vs gross horsepower. I just don't exactly understand the thought process behind why this particular constant is the most appropriate?
Can some of you help shed some light on these for me? |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 01:10 pm: |
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2 Pi = 1 revolution
60 = rev per minute converted to seconds |
M2nc
| | Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 05:22 pm: |
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Most Trigonometry and Calculus equations are based on angles measured in Radians. Radians are a unit of measure like the Metric system. So 360° = 2pi, pi = 180°, pi/2 = 90° and so on. The measure of torque is based on rotational force so the calculations are in radians of one full rotation of 2Pi. |
Spectrum
| | Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2008 - 08:02 pm: |
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Thanks guys, that clears things up for me. Curiosity satisfied and I didn't get killed for it!  |
V74
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 06:12 am: |
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hi spectrum,heres some more numbers to crunch,more rpm = more hp,max piston speed for a reliable engine is 23 meters per second,though the gsxr1000 is at 24m/s,both the 1125r and the 1098r are producing max power at a piston speed of 22m/s showing both engines to be under-stressed,max piston speed for a race engine is 25m/s much more than that and you get piston melt down,minimum clearance of valves to piston is 1mm measured engine static,as at max piston speed/max rpm the conrods stretch by 1mm,so at the max the piston and valves are virtually touching,race engine prep is that precise.power loss through the drive train is usually between 11% and 17% the 1125r is about 13%,so crank to rear wheel hp can be calculated. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 01:01 pm: |
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The mass of the piston would have to come into play there somewhere for the stretching connecting rods, so a four should always have an advantage over a twin. A four will have twice as many pieces changing direction, but they will each have half as much mass.
So the piston speed will be limited by the ability of an oil sheet to maintain a film and keep lubricating... OR limited by the overall piston mass and its ability to change direction without stretching to the point where metal parts intersect or fatigue... Is there an overlap with regards to piston mass with the twins that does not exist on the fours?
In other words, is maximum RPM for a four effectively limited by lubrication film strength, and is maximum RPM for a twin still limited by connecting rod fatigue? Meaning that if you solved the connecting rod issue on a twin, you would then almost immediately bump into the lubrication film strength problem?
Great info V74... interesting stuff! |
Doerman
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 01:45 pm: |
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This is cool.. Sounding more and more like a Kevin Cameron article. |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 03:54 pm: |
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My understanding is that for the fours the valve actuation/return is still the limiting factor. Thus all the pneumatic valve trains in MotoGP.
I was also told this is the case in Formula 1 by an engineer that did work on hydraulic (not air) valves for an F1 team.
The question does remain, as stated by Reep, is the limiting factor for large displacement twins still piston mass/speed rather than valve train? |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 05:22 pm: |
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I think I saw something direct from Buell talking about the aircooled XB indicating that the limiting factor was NOT valve train speed. Even with the pushrod / rocker boxes, I think it could have gone up to 9000 RPM with the stock valvetrain.
Of course the 1125 revs higher then that, and of course has a higher speed capable valve train (overhead cam).
Probably just by virtue of the fact that current OHC engines hit 16k+ RPM, the valve train is probably not the limiting factor on the 1125R, especially given it's finger follower design.
And all those 16K whizzers are very oversquare pistons, much more oversquare then the 1125R is I think, so I bet the 1125 is limited by oil film strength and piston speed relative to the cylinder wall... Which was exactly the point V74 was making. That the 1125 still has a decent margin.
This could be addressed by making the pistons bigger but moving through a shorter stroke, but at the expense of drivability and low RPM horsepower, and making the bad fuel economy even worse.
Anybody have the data to compare the stroke and RPM of an 1125 relative to the stroke and RPM of other bikes?
All in all, it just shows how stupid it is to limit racing classes based just on displacement. Doing so is just creating a single engine layout spec class. |
Fresnobuell
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 05:30 pm: |
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All in all, it just shows how stupid it is to limit racing classes based just on displacement.
add determining insurance rates as well.... |
Littlefield
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 06:40 pm: |
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Wow, 1 mm stretch sounds like a lot for a rod that's, say, 6 inches long. About 6.5 mils/inch average strain, close to 200,000 psi average tensile stress for steel. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 07:22 pm: |
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Yeah... maybe heat growth along with a little stretch and maybe a bit of flexing of the crank might make 1mm? Still sounds like a lot to me... |
Laserred
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 02:06 pm: |
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5252 = (550 x 60)/2pi
Actually, if you do the operations in proper mathematical order, 550x60=33,000 This is in foot-pounds per minute, the actual amount of work performed by 1 horsepower. James Watt calculated that 1 horse can lift 550lbs 1 foot per second, hence 33,000 foot-pounds per minute. He calculated this with the horse walking in a circle, hence the 2pi, which is 360*, a full circle. |
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