| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Rich: If you can provide your VIN in your profile you may possibly get an even better answer. | ||
| Jmartz |
While my bike is apart I'm having thoughts of freshening up the top end by mearly beadblasting and changing gaskets and stem seals. There is quite a bit of grunge in the passages and and on the valves themselves. This top end has gone about 13,000 miles of moderate abuse. I guess I migt have to look at the seat surfaces too and into the cylinders... hmmmnnn... Perhaps I better leave things be.  | ||
| Radon30 |
Done!  Blake | ||
| Spike |
Quickie: Are all the Lightning cams (X1 vs. S1) the same? I know '99+ T-storm motors had different heads and pistons, but if the cams are the same I think I just found myself a deal. Mike L. '99 Cyclone '92 Miata | ||
| Rall |
Spike, Yes, All Lightning cams are the same. Rall | ||
| Sportyeric |
I think a caution is due regarding the pinion gear being different between those years? Not a big cost item but needs to be checked before installation. | ||
| Aaron |
2000 model year: high contact ratio gear teeth between the pinion and #2 cam. 2001 model year: hcr propogated to all the connections. Easy fix: using a press and a little care, you can accurately move drive gears between cams. | ||
| Spike |
More cam questions: What's up with the Lightning cams in the '02 Buell Apparel and Accessories catalog? The part number is 25648-91. It says they fit '95-'96 S2s and '97-'98 M2s. Shouldn't they fit all pre-'01 Buells? Aren't they the same cams used in '99+ X1/S3 motors? Any reason not to put them in my '99 M2? Thanks in advance. Mike L. '99 Cyclone | ||
| Vwolf |
Anyone...I have 3500mi on my 2000M2 and during some other work I noticed my cams have a very small amount of wear.My Vin# is 4mzks11j6y3302642.I have decided to replace them now.My question is two parts.One..is there a problem with my stock cams or anyting near them? part#2 I have replaced them with the lighting cams.and was wondering what to expect.My bike is waiting for a new header so its not up yet so I was just looking for some cheery replys and to know why they looked warn to begin with..thanks in advance   Vwolf | ||
| Jrh |
Vwolf Ive got a Y2000 M2 i just put the S1 cams in,but like you im still waiting to see what they do(waiting on other parts)I cant really tell you anything about your original cams wear problems but i think we can expect to loose a little mid- range power but gain quite a bit on top end with the S1 cams.From looking at all the dyno charts in the K.V. section on this site,it seems most of the 1999-up M2s put out about 70-75 h.p.+ the 1998 S1Ws about 85 h.p. Since our year M2s have the thunders-storm heads+pistons,same as the S1W and now the same cams,im hoping for the 85 or so h.p. Hopefully Blake or somebody can give you some ideas on what to check about the original cam wear trouble.There is some talk in the previous posts just above this about some Real bad looking cam lobe wear,but they dont mention what they found as the cause yet. John | ||
| Aaron |
Assuming all the rollers are good, make sure the lifters can't rotate very far. The amount they can rotate may vary some, look for a correlation between how far a lifter rotates and how much wear that lobe is showing. '99 and older motors can (and should) be updated to the '00 and later anti-rotation pins. They cost roughly 75 cents each. You have to drill very carefully and straight with a 3/16 drill bit, follow up with a 13/64 bit for the threaded portion, and then tap to 1/4 NC. | ||
| Jmartz |
Aaron: Will post some pictures next time to attempt this procedure? Aren't there some oil issues to consider? What about aluminum filings falling inside the engine? I've never liked the lifters in the case but those tiangular little blocks, o-rings and pins really blow my mind. jose | ||
| Blake |
Those with worn cams might want to check the following... Late production 1999 Sportster and Buell engines use the model year 2000 gearcase cover and gasket. If the cover is removed and re-installed, care must be taken to install the correct gasket, or oil starvation can occur. The 2000 gasket (25263-90C) MUST be used with the 2000 style gearcase cover. NOTE: The 2000 gasket (25263-90C) can retrofit cam covers to 1991. CAUTION!!! If a 25263-90B gasket is installed on a 2000 style gear-case cover, oil starvation can occur to the top end. Oil starvation can result in engine damage. V.I.N. Range: Model Year 1999 XL Motorcycles with engine numbers XX99-158-XXX to XX99-176-XXX have the 2000 cam cover and must use 25263-90C. NOTE: The XL engine gasket kit 17026-91B has superceded to 17026-91C. The 17026-91C gasket kit contains the 25263-90C cam cover gasket.  Hope that helps.  | ||
| Aaron |
Jose: absolutely you have to be careful about the aluminum chips, just like when you clearance the bottoms of the lifter bosses for high lift cams. Tape the bejeezus out of everything. I also flushed the oil gallerys after the procedure. The arrangements with the pins is stupid, particularly the stock pins that are only supported on one side. Zipper's sells a long pin kit but the '00 and later factory pins are a better setup, IMO, and they're cheaper. Big thank-you to her royal highness Pammy for pointing this out to me. | ||
| Vwolf |
Jrh John thanks for the help wow that is great news..althought I now am informed my cams are not x1 but screaming eagle.But I guess its also good news.Well Blake I saved my old (orignal) gearcase gasket and I really don,t like what I see..I mean it is a 2000 but at the lower right of this pic in the big part of the gasket you see 2 holes..well my M2 has 3!!! the hole there has a hole also in the engine case that VOMITED heheheh oil when I pulled the gearcase off.Well the new gasket 2000 and the old gasket covers this hole?I don,t have the cam cover but I don,t remember the whole connecting to the engine case as for as flow to another whole..ahh kinda strange..Just having all that oil pour out when I tilted the bike and the gearcase did not have a hole too match..While everyone is on this topic..I also wanted to ahhh (Trim) cut away the gearcase cover that hangs past the gasket..all execpt the part that has a centering leg toward the belt area..I thought I would leave that intack to help place the gearcase..I noticed a gearcase on S&S web site that was trimed like that..imagine the weight loss too.. any comments is greatly welcome.Thanks again John and Blake Vwolf wcb | ||
| Vwolf |
Blake after a little discussion here It was decided that letting the oil from the engine side of the gearcase flow into the gearcase would be ok..maybe..hehehe..but as the gearcase is bolted in the hole is closed..like me says..strange..may be the rider huh? I would love to let that oil seep.. Vwolf | ||
| Blake |
VWolf, I know it seems strange, but that hole is supposed to be covered by the gasket. Aaron can tell you more about it. Definitely get your cam cover cut down. It is one of the best/easiest aesthetic improvements you can make to your bike. | ||
| Jrh |
Vwolf If your dealer or mechanic said Screamin'Eagle 1,those are the stock cams Buell put in the S1W. Just like you + Blake say,I too remember a 3rd (middle,between the 2 punched holes in the lower area of gasket)hole that gets covered by the gasket.Maybe Aaron will explain(thanks in advance Aaron if you do)Also besides the info on cutting down the cam cover you can find on this site,there's an article with alot of clear pictures you can check out on The X-1 Files. Also Aarons post above about checking out slight side rotation of the lifters in their bores due to a too loose retaining pin fit makes alot of sense,thats why i never thought of it. | ||
| Aaron |
Well, here's all I know about this subject ... The 4-speed motors were oiled differently, maybe early 5-speeds too, I'm not sure when the changeover was. Take a look at this picture:  See that hole directly above the brass fitting? Oil feeds into that brass fitting and comes out that hole and goes into the cover. From there, some if it goes into the end of the pinion shaft and oils the lower end, and some goes up the cover and out the top and back into the case through that hole you see in the top. From there, drilled passages allow it to feed all 4 lifters, which in turn, send it up the pushrods to the top end. This is how the motors used to be done. It's a better way to do it, which is why these S&S cases do it that way, they're kind of a conglomeration of the best features of all the different years. Notice the 4 speed tappet blocks. Well, these are 5-speed cases! Fact is, much of what HD changes over the years is done for cost reduction, not because it's better. S&S uses the best arrangement. HD abandoned this oiling method at some point and just brought the oil directly from the filter pad to the lifters, through drilled passages. Now it comes out the top part of the case into the cover and goes down to the pinion, instead of coming up from the bottom. Hence that hole in the bottom is no longer needed. I have a few covers sitting around, and I noticed that a '96 cover still has that hole in the bottom of it. It looks like it would work on either an old or a new engine. But, my early '99 cover is different, and the hole on the bottom has been removed. So you couldn't put it on one of the older motors where it feeds the oil into the cover from the bottom. Now, what did they change in late '99/'00? I honestly don't know for sure, I haven't personally ever opened up a late model bike and looked at it how it works. But I have a hunch, based on what I see on the pre-'00s and those pics above. I have looked and looked and looked at the oil passages that connect the filter pad to the lifters, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how they drilled those holes. Normally, when you see an oil gallery type hole drilled, you see that they've drilled straight from an accessible area, and then stuck in plugs as needed to make it work. I can't find evidence of drilling that passage from the outside world. All I can figure is they must have some fancy way of turning a drill bit at a right angle and they drilled from inside the tappet holes. Anyhoo, looking at the new gasket, it almost appears to me that they now bring the oil into the cover as it passes from one lifter to another. Which would of course greatly simplify that drilling operation. Seems though that using the wrong gasket could affect lower end oiling as well, no? But they only mention top end starvation. But, all that's just a guess. Someone on here has probably opened up an '00 or later motor and figured out how the oiling works, no? Or has an '00 shop manual and has read the description? AW | ||
| Aaron |
Oh, by the way ... I got my M2's heads back from Cycle-Rama yesterday. I about fell over when I looked at them. Holy smokes did they put a bunch of work into them. WAAAAY out-of-the-box thinking, let me tell you. Clearly these are not random ideas, a ton of r&d had to be behind them. Anyhoo, I'm not even taking pictures of them, much less sharing pictures. You want to know, you gotta go buy a set! But trust me, this is not your average head porting job. Can't wait to put it together. Cams aren't here yet, but they will be soon. | ||
| Blake |
Cool! | ||
| Jmartz |
AAron: Don't know how the direction of oiling can be good or bad. Do you have the S&S cam cover that goes with the motor? I am quite fond of those cases but I'm not sure of the need for needle bearings to support the cams, particularly in light of the fact that they generate more noise. I wanted to mention that IMHO the single most item restricting our beloved motors is the intake flow. This year at Daytona (you were there too) I stopped by the Zippers booth and viewed first hand their individual runner heads. They are available with the expanded bolt pattern and altered pushrod angle of the displaced gear case S&S cases such as yours. Valves and springs can be selected from a variety of options including Titanium for high rpm duty. I bet you could make a 140 HP monster with those... | ||
| Aaron |
Oh, man, that whole bearings-vs-bushings thing is a can of worms. This motor uses bushings in the cover. The XR is that way, too, bearings in the case and bushings in the cover. Personally, I think that's a good way to do it. Yeah, them Zipper's machined billet CNC-ported heads are pretty pieces (expensive, too!), but I'd take a Wes Brown hand-ported job on STD's over them any day. | ||
| Jmartz |
Seeing your cases got me interested again in building an ehnaced power motor. Once again I rediscovered there is no supplier of a lower end with a stroke under 3 and 5/8ths. AAC has not yet released their long promised 4" bore jugs (not really an obstacle) but the good news is those Zipper heads that fill the market segment vacated by Shumaker. With a lightened reciprocating assembly and the proper valve train I'm pretty confident a 140 (rear wheel), 8000 rpm motor is possible. | ||
| Blake |
JM, What displacement are you talking about? | ||
| Jrh |
Jmartz I remember seeing in a Zippers catalog about 2 years ago a sportster "street",he he,engine they offered.I dont remember the specifics,but it was 117c.i.,used S+S bottom end,some billet heads(cant remember from who)but i definately remember they claimed 150 RWHP was not out of the question with it.Price was not listed. | ||
| Jmartz |
Blake, circa 90 cubic inches. Jrh, high HP motors are advertised by Zippers and Axtell, both in the 150 HP range. These are generally long stroke which usually, unless built like a tractor, have reduced redlines. In my experience the few big bore motors I've come accross are making much closer to 100 than to 150 HP. Remember that for a constant (unchanged) driveline the higher the redline the faster you will be going at shift point. | ||
| Blake |
JM, Isn't valve float, not piston speed the primary factor limiting rpm in the HD/Buell twins? The 1250 Nallin kit will easily get you 100 RWHP. | ||
| Jmartz |
Blake: Both are limiting factors but the longer the stroke the stronger the forces which I believe are rising as the square of the velocity (rpm). Check out rpm limits in long block offerings they are always less than the 7K we can safely do in our stock motors. S&S has the lightest roller tipped rockers in the industry now, coupled to titatinum valves, pushrods and upper collars the valve train shoud go 8K. Nascar has a similar valve train as our beloved motors and they get spurts up to 9500. My motor has Jim's rockers and titatinum pushrods and upper collars and SE .536 cams with their sccessory spring kit. I have the rev limiter set to 7500 and bounce off of it rather frequently. My valves are stock. | ||
| Jmartz |
I have neglected to mention that although may of those big motors have unimpressive HP #'s they do make a ton more torque. If the driveline is modified to take advantage of this I believe you can go faster even if your rpm is less than 7000. Nallin's combo of parts is indeed fabulous, with a little luck (having a very true and properly balanced factory lower end) this top end kit can produce well over 100 HP, of course, with proper tuning. |
