| Author | Message | ||
     Baggermike |
Hey the bike is rated at 435 watts at 7000 rpms but do not ride at this rpms, I need to know what the bike is producing at 3000 to 4000 rpms, which is the rpm range I cruise around at, this will tell me how much heated gear I can use safely without draining the battery. Thanks | ||
| Reepicheep |
The math will be complicated. I think it's a three phase shunt type regulator with a full wave rectifier bridge, so you have the top halves of 6 sine waves sitting there in terms of voltage available. But the sine waves don't "transmit" power until they get over the VR voltage, say it's 12.2 or something, plus the .6 forward bias of the diode. Thats because current won't flow "uphill". It won't flow from A to B until the voltage at point A is higher then point B. The diodes in the rectifier bridge keeps it from flowing from B to A. I think the stator goes up to around 60 volts, so for roughly the leading 1/6 of the wave form, it's not transmitting any power. Then once the voltage gets too "high", the regulator throws the shunt switch, and its not transmitting any power there either. The more burdened the charging system is, the later this shunt will get thrown. Eventually, if the load is heavy enough, it will never get thrown. But the trailing edge of the sine wave can't flow current "uphill" either, so when it drops down below the regulation voltage + .6 (to get past the forward biased diode), its not sending current then either. So we can probably effectively assume it approaches 1/6 of the available wave form as well (as if the stator output is less then the current battery voltage, power will not flow to it). So that probably lops off about 1/3 of the total power available from the stator even when the bike wants more... but that figure was probably taken into account when publishing the total power available. So I think you can make two conclusions here... First, its hard to get the *real* answer, but you can probably make an OK guess by just using proportion or RPM's at redline, and multiply that by 435 watts, and get a decent guess at available power. So if you are at 3000 RPM, that is (3000/7000), or about 50%. (.5 * 435) watts is 186 watts. So thats a guess that is guaranteed to be wrong, but is probably in the ballpark. Secondly, it says that for shunt regulator bikes, about 1/3 of the power is "left on the table". And that a regulator that used some sort of switching technology might up your available power output by 1/3 with no other changes to the bike (though the stator would get 1/3 hotter). I don't think that is practical though... think of a high end computer power supply. They are reaching the 500 watt switched regulated range, and are fairly optimized for both size and cost, and you are still looking at a box that is 5x5x4 inches, needs a big loud fan, isn't hardened for vehicle use, and costs $100 or more. So "conservation" is probably still the best answer... use more insulation and more efficient other components (mainly lights) so you need less power in the first place. The Buell stators use fixed magnetic fields, and the current produced is directly proportional to the magnetic field strength and the number of windings. So you can also upgrade the stator (to more windings) or the bell (to stronger magnets) to also eek out more power. You could also use a variable magnetic field alternator (uses the power produced by the alternator to run another set of windings in the alternator to generate a variable strength magnetic field). This is yet another set of windings to go wrong, and requires brushes somewhere because you have to somehow get the current from the non spinning parts to the spinning parts. More potential performance and better efficiency (you can control how much power is being generated to match what the application needs), but more complexity. It's fun to think about. | ||
| Darkice19 |
Hook up a wattmeter and ride around in the rpm area you like. Its the only way you will get the correct answer. Electricity is all theory and it will be a little different for every bike. There are way to many variables. Like connections,temperature,how many chicks you have on the back seat,the color of the bike and so on. And wattmeters are cheap. Only a few bucks at wallmart. | ||
| Darkice19 |
I wonder if it would be possible to hook up a automotive alternator on the belt drive for some extra electricity. Might sound crazy but it would be fun to try something like that. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Guy's I am learning allot about electronics, I understand mechanics and can work on bikes but when it comes to electrical tech I am lost, but finding my way, to bad they do not have like a dyno sheet for the alternator. Mike | ||
| Davegess |
Bagger; you, the heated gear, the battery, the alternator and most of all the 1125R motor will be much happier if you downshift and run that thing closer to 7000 rpm than 3000 rpm. 3000 rpm on this motor is not only roughly equivalent to 1500 RPM on a 1200 sporty BUT I am guessing that this motor is lot more unhappy lugging than the old air cooled lump is. I could be wrong but I would downshift and keep the revs up in the middle and up part of the rev range. | ||
| Ccryder |
Hey Darkice19 great idea, I know of a pulley that is just idling around. Get an output shaft on it, some bearing supports, some room for a 5"-6" diameter alternator plus upgrade the VR and....... Sure sounds like a lot of work to me. On the ST1100 they upgraded the alternator output after a few production years since the riders were complaining about the very issues we are seeing here. BTW: alternators do reduce engine output (parasitic loss). Bigger alternators eat up more HP that could be delivered to the rear wheel. Ok, Ok it's just a few watts but..... Time2go B4 I get shot. Later Neil S. | ||
| Baggermike |
dave have you ridden this bike? at 70 to 75 mph the rpm are around 4300, so why would they say in the owners manual to shift into six gear at 55 mph, I think this is around 3000 rpm but not sure, but if they say to shift to six gear at 55 mph then I think your wrong about what rpms you are suppose to ride at. I ride a bike by feel and around 4000 rpms feel just right when cruising around. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
I called customer service and they could not help me and told me that it needed to take the bike back to the dealer, they would not give me any info on the trouble codes. Mike | ||
| Zac4mac |
Same line I got. Even if they don't charge me for it, that's a 40 mile round trip. Screw that. Z | ||
| Davegess |
Bagger, have not ridden it but I must admit to liking the ride with the rev up a bit. 4500 isn't even half way to red line and 300 is very relaxed. You will get better gas mileage at the lower RPM but if you are running with the load you want to put on the thing I think you need to keep the revs up where the alternator is putting out max power. Extended running at 7000 rpm should be no big deal on a bike with an over 10,000 redline. If everything, voltage regulator, alternator, battery check out OK then you re putting too much of a load on it. As someone said above it is hard to predict exactly what power will be available as each bike will vary a little. From what very little I know about electrics it seems that the Uly set up has more juice available than the 1125. This would make sense as an adventure bike will have more demands than a sport bike. Reeps suggestion to turn off off the highbeam or go to more efficient bulbs is probably your best bet as that high beam sucks watts. | ||
| Baggermike |
Hi dave it seems like I have a battery problem from what I have read and talk to. The head light bulbs are all 35 watts so I can not go lower, and hid lights are 35 watts also which is in my plans for the bike, I like to ride in the day time with my high beams on so will have to stop doing that with my heated gear on. My son has the ulysses and yes it has more left over watts than the 1125R, it also make less watts and amps and is a single phase 30 amp 405 watts at 3000 rpms verses a 3 phase 32 amp 435 watts at 7000 rpms, which I have no idea what the difference are, but the ulysses make more watts at a lower rpm and is better suited for touring. I did the math and the ulysses does have more watts left over than the 1125R, now I just have to figure out with an amp meter or trial and error to how much gear I can run, I then will have to change my heated gear, I have a 44 watt vest and a 90 watt jacket liner, so I will not use the jacket liner and I will use the vest, I can get away with not using heated pant liners and just use the socks, and if I use a on off switch that will also save watts, also the acc plug shuts off if the battery gets low, so I will tap into this and will prevent me from running down the battery. I just got to take my time and figure out what I can run and think I have it figured out. Mike | ||
| Zac4mac |
Dave - a lot of us come from a long time riding HDs. I know I'm having a hard time keeping the revs up. I am getting better at staying in 5th unless I'm on the freeway. Riding thru town at 7 thousand RPM is NOT an option I will entertain. Z | ||
| Baggermike |
Took me sometime to get use the xb12 after riding a twin cam for 3 years, had to shift my rpm by 1000, now I do not notice that on the 1125R and ride it like my xb12 and 3rd gear is the one I am mostly in inless I am on a hyway, also a guy who races says that he uses 3rd gear most of the time, I know it pulls from 3000 to red line really smooth and can see his point, rarely do I get to 4th gear around were I live. Mike | ||
| Ccryder |
It's a new bike so it requires a new riding technique. Just like my 12r I can get away with 1500 rpm to start but my ST needs 2,500rpm (right club for the right hole). It takes me some time to adjust b/t a 400# bike and a 700# bike (that first turn IS exciting sometimes!). If you are taxing the electrical system at 70%, you should be able to get by at 4500-5500 rpm. If you are sucking 90%-100% of the alternators output, then you probably need 7,000rpm. I will guess that without heated clothing and just hi beams Zumo and normal bike loads will allow you to cruise at 3000-4000rpm. But why would you want to do that??? Alright, just kidding I can't play that game either. During my ride to/ from work I usually keep my 12r about 2,500-3,500rpm (just cruising). I'll twist it a little coming out of the turns (since I can) and feel the GRIN. So maybe in the near future I'll have your same "problem" of adjusting to a different ride (sounds like great fun to me!). Later Neil S. | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks Neil, I like that program allot and with my vest instead of the heated jacket liner and my other heated gear and just the low beams on I figured out I would have 100 watts to spare, also it showed me that I can hook up my equipment to the acc outlet and that will shut off if the battery gets low, thats a really good feature, and is rated at 15 amps, so using that program all my heated gear comes to around 11 amps with my vest instead of my jacket liner, so I should be good to go once I get a new battery which is bad, I called Buell customer service and the buell shop and the battery is suppose to be 12.7 and my battery is 12.3 after charging, which is 50% charge, so they told me to bring it in which I will do when the roads clear up, and I hope that the battery is the only problem. Thanks again for you help. Mike | ||
| Jlnance |
why would they say in the owners manual to shift into six gear at 55 mph Do they really say that? I don't really know why they do, but if I had to guess it would be because they don't ever want to be in a lawsuit explaining why their bike has a 6th gear that isn't useful till 120 mph. I do know that the recommended shift points on the Uly are awful. You're supposed to be in 5th at 55. I suspect there is some legal/regulatory reason for the shift points. If you ignore them and spin the engine up a little faster it's like a whole new bike. And the amazing thing is I get better gas mileage riding it like that. | ||
| Oldog |
what is the measured current draw of your heated gear items ? what is the current draw of the motor cycle with the lights in various modes ie low, high, L/H with stop l/h turn l/h turn stop motor off the X1 draws 10.2 amps motor off [ mine does anyway ] through the main switch. ignition on. about 8.5 IIrc ign off IF the charging system is 408W using simple arith thats about 28.1 amps for charging and other demands ( at 14.4v if the bike needs say 18 amps to operate lights, instruments, ecm, fuelpump, injectors that still leaves 10 a for charging and losses if the system voltage is 13.5 thats 30+ amps I would be supprised if the alternator output is insufficent above 3k. how much current does that gear actualy use? where can I find a cheap watt meter???? wall mart?, next to the blinker fluid ??  | ||
| Baggermike |
vest 44 watts,jacket 90 watts but also says 110 leg liners 44 watts socks 27 watts and gloves 30 watts, so with the jacket out of the equasion that would be 125 watts at 11.6 amps, charging system 32 amp 3 phase 435 watts at 7000 rpm 70 watts low beam and 140 high beam all four lights are on at high beam, 4000 rpm is good for cruising and at 70 to 75 in six is 4300 rpms. can cut 21 by going to led brake and tail light, blinkers led and do not take 1 watt so fans, ecm, injection, and instriment gauge, lcd, so do not think that takes much watts. j will try riding at higher rpms to see if I get better gas milage it has instant gas milage gauge so I can tell what works, and if I was racing I would be at 7000 in a corner, I ride by feel not by what I am told to do by books or anyone else, I have had over thrirty bikes and this one is the best. Mike | ||
| Baggermike |
J what do you get for gas milage. Mike | ||
| Jlnance |
When I did the actual experiment, I rode from Raleigh to Greensboro (88 miles.) 5th gear on the way there, 4th gear on the way back. I tried to keep the bike at 75 mph. It's all interstate. 5th gear - 51 mpg 4th gear - 53 mpg I only did that experiment once. If I wanted to be more confident in the numbers, I'd repeat it a few more times. But I am confident enough to say the mileage obviously isn't suffering by running in 4th at that speed. (I'm going to do an XB9 primary chain swap, which is why I was measuring.) | ||
| Baggermike |
Thanks J you should post that on the gas milage thread, I will se how my bike does, did you break in the motor to the book, or to some other method, I have read many differrent ways to breaking in a motor, and it can effect gas milage, hp, and tq, so I would like to know how you broke in your motor. I also will try this experiment on my bike. Mike | ||
| Darkice19 |
I don't have any electric clothes. I just wear my 2 piece gortex woodland camo hunting suit. I'm good to about 50 below zero. My wife says i look like the unibomber | ||
| Jlnance |
Bagger, Don't forget I'm talking about a Uly, not an 1125r. I did post a thread about my gas mileage experiment. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/142 838/279307.html But if you loan me your bike, I'll be happy to do the experiment for you. ;) (Message edited by jlnance on January 16, 2008) | ||
| Baggermike |
Hey you got me going I thought you were talking about the 1125R, my uly gets around the same gas mileage, but the 1125 is not but out of curiosity I will be doing experiments to see how to get the best gas mileage, I was passing a truck and all of a sudden I had to let off the throttle because I was in his draft and also had to do with the bike because I have done the same thing with the uly and did not notice it that much, when I was younger I would get right with in a few feet of the back of the bike and you have to get off the throttle and it is very quiet and you can hear the motor real good but you have to have your eye's focused on the brake lights and quick reflexes and have thought how much gas mileage would you get doing this but I would not do that now unless I was out of money and far from home. Mike |
