| Author |
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Rick_A
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 07:35 pm: | 
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I'd like to see what that chart looks like from 2500RPM up. |
Loki
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 08:33 pm: |
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Aaron,
Truly impressive numbers
I'll impress myself when I break 80 with the stock cams in the M-Duece. On that note what is the best you have seen from the stock M2 cams?
Right now at the upper 70's level its a real hoot to ride. Especially when I unload the front end coming out of a corner.
Thanks for all the info, again and again |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:24 pm: |
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Oops, sorry, I just looked, no pulls below 3500 rpm at all. The motor just wanted to run up, I didn't even realize I was starting them that high I guess. It's a nice arcing clockwise curve up from 3500, pulling strong the whole way.
Best on stock cams I've heard of is about 90hp, best I've seen is 85, that was on my personal M2, running on race gas. On pump gas it'd run 82-83. It's getting the "Steve Madden" treatment at the moment, at least that's what I asked for. I heard some muttering about some new ideas 
Yeah, I know what you mean about these bikes, I sure enjoy riding them. And the people are great, you don't run into the snob thing so much, people who ride Buells tend to do so because they're fun to ride, not to impress other people. |
Tripper
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:14 pm: |
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Aaron: Iv'e got a friend here in KC that has a new Nallin Motor. The sucker sounds like a 2 cylinder Nascar Engine. Baseline Dyno reveals 106hp/96ftlbs. Brian says he needs to find someone who cares and tune the horses out of it. What would it take to interest you in a challenge?
'gards, DaveT |
Aaron
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:43 pm: |
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Sure, have him bring it over! I'm going to try to schedule dyno days once a month, Im getting requests and I'd like to maximize my ROI with respect to setup and tear down of the dyno. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 06:12 pm: |
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Great dyno runs Aaron! Thanks for sharing them! That Firebolt run looks very promising. I'm hoping that the race kit will let her rev to maybe 8,000? With a proper bump to the midrange via more fuel, would we then be looking at a FAT powerband running all the way from 3K to 8K rpm?
Nallin Racing will be dyno tuning my M2 as soon as I can get it over to them. Wow! Mat's results are VERY inpressive. I'm surprised that the curve #1 on the Dyna 2000 was the best choice though. Are you certain about that? I thought a built high compression engine needed to be on a more conservative advance curve (curve 3 or 4). Or is the thin air up there governing the optimum timing curve? |
Aaron
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 06:29 pm: |
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Very perceptive comment! I was wondering about that myself. One day I did 128 pulls on my S1, playing with that same module and various other ignition system pieces, and the S1 wanted curve 4.
But Matt said he had experimented with it and felt curve 1 was best, and we never went through the exercise of figuring it out (something that really takes a lot of time to do properly), we just turned the timing plate.
He may be right, those 585's are broad, and they have a pretty late intake close point, and he has a conservative compression ratio. Perhaps his low rpm cylinder pressures are low. |
Mbsween
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 07:59 pm: |
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Okay,
here's the dyno run from my sort-of-working X1. (cheap plug to get people looking at my other post...)
85.4 HP /75.3 Ft-lbs. This appears to be pretty typical for a pipe, race ecm and gutted airbox, no?
You can get a better view here |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 08:17 pm: |
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Depends on the dyno, Mbsween. You could go to another dyno and pull 92 rwhp and 80 ft/lbs or go to another and do worse. The curves look right for your mods; in fact, they look more like one with a race header, too.
Vik |
Aaron
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 10:58 pm: |
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7hp would be an exceptionally large dyno to dyno variation ... something would have to be wrong with one of'em. |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 12:08 am: |
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There I go talking out my ass again! I have the gift of exageration. I've seen 4 hp variation on my own bike: different temp, differnt tires, etc. |
Mbsween
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 07:27 am: |
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Aaron/Eeeeek,
This is the same bike at the original dealer. Its a different dyno. When I asked why the HP was so low, they said "thats how it ran"
The dyno run I posted yesterday is the same bike with a new set of plugs.
Aaron, can you tell how a bike was running from the graph, ie if it was running really rough on the dyno would it show? or does the software smooth the curve?
The bike is a 2001 X1 with:
Race ECM
gutted airbox/K&N filter
White Bros E-series (12 discs) |
Pammy
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 08:08 am: |
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variations can also be attributed to the individual making the pull. We always have the same person do the run, before and after. Also the bike being tied down in the rear.(we don't do it). You can't use a torque wrench to measure the pressure the straps put on the rear tire. The air pressure in the rear tire as well. There are so many variables in dyno testing. We just try to control as many of them as we can. |
Pammy
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 08:11 am: |
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also, you have STD calc's on the first run and SAE calc's on the second run. |
Aaron
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 08:57 am: |
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Yes, I've seen 4hp variation on my bike, too, same dyno & operator! That variation is in the correction process though. High humidity seems to kill the charts for me, even though the dyno measures it and supposedly corrects for it.
But that's an extreme case ... generally, on two different days, both of reasonable weather, properly tuned for that day, the corrected numbers come out within a hp, maybe two. Even if one day is cold and another hot. It seems like I get a little better corrected result on hot days.
I only tie the back loosely, to keep it from moving side to side, and I don't sit on the bike.
Temp management of the motor plays a huge role in the results, I see a large variation based on how I'm managing the temp. So yeah, operator technique matters. It's *really* important to manage temp properly while you're making changes, to get consistency.
I hate the way that second chart is done, the two sides should generally be scaled the same. And I like to put hp on the right and tq on the left, since that's where the peaks are. And yeah, one is STD and the other is SAE. And the aspect ratios are different, that makes'em hard to compare, too. I like'em in landscape mode like the first. The main thing is, on the second chart, he shut the motor down WAY early. You can't tell squat comparing those two pulls. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 10:57 am: |
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MB,
The second run you posted only goes from 3,800 to 5,500 rpm. If you paid for that dyno run and that's the only printout you got, I'd ask for my money back. It's missing too much information to be of any real use. And the reason it looks so eratic is that the scales are so narrow, kind of like a magnified view of a what would normally be just one third of the total dyno results plot. I'd say your most recent plot from Jamestown HD/Buell is an accurate one, the integrity of the Cycle Stop plot is very questionable.
A comment like "that's how it ran" in answer to your question tells me that the Cycle Stop guy either doesn't give a damn about your bike's performance and just wants you to go away, or he is a total moron.
From personal experience I can verify that the guys at Jamestown HD/Buell are very Buell enthusiastic. I know they are a ways from home for you, but if it were me, I'd question the integrity of the Cycle Stop guy who gave you such a lame response, and for future service I'd lean towards Jamestown instead. |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 11:17 am: |
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Aaron-
How does the DynoJet O2 sensor look? Where / how does it mount? Have you noticed a difference between whacking the throttle open and quickly but smoothly rolling into it (if that's not what you really mean by whacking)?
As usual, I have many silly thoughts.
-Saro |
Aaron
| | Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 11:38 am: |
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It's just a piece of copper tubing you stick up into the muffler.
I've run some roll-on versus WOT from the get-go comparisons, it smoothes the a/f some. There's little difference in the power curve though. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, June 03, 2002 - 12:04 am: |
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From my experience the guys at Jamestown HD/Buell are enthusiastic...though everyone I've dealt with seem to know less about Buells than I do. |
Mbsween
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 09:37 am: |
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Blake,
Kilgore texas is a ways from Jamestown, NY let alone Buffalo. Are you a transplanted New Yorker?
Pammy,
I gave up engineering along time ago, what is the difference between STD and SAE HPs, aren't they all 550 Ft-Lbs/sec? |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 06:58 pm: |
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Some of today's interesting results ...
1998 S1W owned by Dan Norlin
Nallin Stage 2x heads & 1250 kit
SE .536 cams
Nallin/Force exhaust
HSR42
SE Selectable Curve ignition (Dyna 2000)
Note: this bike's configuration is identical to Kevin Hern's M2 (which made 104hp) except the exhaust system
Built by Matt Risley/Sun Harley-Davidson/Buell Thornton CO
Matt also built Kevin's motor and his own 111hp motor, which we dyno'ed again today and got identical results as last time
1998 S3 owned by Bill Cobb
Nallin 88" kit
S&S heads prepared by Nallin Racing
Red Shift 585 cams
West-Tek exhaust
HSR45
Dyna 2000 ignition
Engine built by Nallin Racing |
Pilk
| | Posted on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 07:24 pm: |
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Aaron,
With the 88" nallin kit will the X-1 FI feed it?
Just wondering. If not would a person just need a bigger throttle body or both injectors and air?
Maybe parts from a twin cam?
Pilk |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 09:27 pm: |
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Rob, I guess I'd be surprised but I can't say for sure. Talk to Brian. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 10:22 pm: |
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Aaron, is that tire slippage showing up between 4-4.5K rpm?
VERY impressive engines!
I'm impressed with the low end on the 88 incher plus it hits 100 RWHP before 5K.
How's the sodium-chloride terminator coming? |
Aaron
| | Posted on Sunday, June 09, 2002 - 10:31 pm: |
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Nah, he had a reversion thing going on.
The amount of work left to do on the race bike is still in the "daunting" category. Suffice to say it'll be a busy summer for me. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 12:04 am: |
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Want some help? |
Peter
| | Posted on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 02:24 am: |
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Aaron,
You're getting some nice numbers there.
PPiA |
Aaron
| | Posted on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 08:41 am: |
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Blake: sure! You coming to CO? Want to dyno that boat anchor?
Peter: well, hey, it IS an American dyno, y'know!
Actually, you gotta understand, you just don't see the disappointing results I get, I don't post those.
But these guys all had impressive bikes.
We did the 88incher, then Dan's 1250, then we rolled Matt's 1250 back up. It had pulled 111 two weeks ago. Well, poor Matt 'bout had a heart attack, it would *only* pull 107. He couldn't have his customer bike beat him! Especially considering he has a lot more cam in his. He fiddled with jetting and got it back to 111.1, a dead tie. He decided to sit on that and he rolled it off.
The 1250 kit is clearly adding a few ponies, no question. It's what, a 4% displacement increase or thereabouts? Brian's cranking those kits out, they're popular. |
Archer
| | Posted on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 10:30 am: |
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I was talking to Brian Nallin over the weekend and he said that he will have a big bore kit out for sale for the Firebolt in about two months. The race is on to get the first modified XB dyno chart. I wonder if i get a t-shirt for that? |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Monday, June 10, 2002 - 11:51 am: |
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Those are impressive #'s. What would I not give to have a Buell that could beat the pants of a Ducati. 110 at 7K and 5 speeds with no fairing might not be enough though.
Jose |
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