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Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 07:56 am: | 
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Rocket, while i don't agree with all of the points in your last post, i do agree with many, and appreciate the obvious care that went into your choice of words.
i haven't seen the new Buell in person, so can't comment on the looks from the perspective of one who has, but on the whole the photos leave me a little cold, too, mostly the Buellbous eye-pod thingies hanging out.
that said, i'm fully prepared to change my mind when i see one in the flesh.
a motorcycle's looks are very important to me - the ability to move my soul as well as my arse, as it were.
my former V-Strom was a very competent motorcycle, whether carving a twisty or crossing the country, but in the end the butt-ugly duckling looks killed it for me.
that's also one reason why i'd have a hard time spending my own money on a Ulysses - there is perhaps no other Buell ever made that leaves me so cold in the looks department.
however, there are boatloads of enthusiastic Uly fans around the world, and i assume that part of the appeal for them IS the looks of this motorcycle, and good on 'em for that.
additionally, even tho the bike doesn't strike a chord for me in terms of it's visual presentation, i'd have a hard time justifying in my mind the right to tell Erik that he failed or let me down somehow, and i feel the same about the 1125R. it's likely not everyone's cup of tea, but it doesn't make it "wrong," just different, and a lot of people really seem to like "different."
as for me, i'm looking forward to riding one, and very interested in seeing what the next few years may bring in the way of 1125R offerings. it's reasonable to assume that a more touring-oriented model is in the works, one with a modicum of luggage capacity, relaxed ergos, a more low- and mid-range-weighted power curve, and, perhaps most relevant in my mind regarding the looks, one with an integrated full fairing instead of the eye-pods.
THAT would be a stunning motorcycle. 
take care,
FB |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 09:39 am: |
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The problem I have with this is one fails to evaluate the product without placing ones emotions into the equation. It's great to feel such affinity to a manufacturer of a performance \ recreational vehicle but the wider truth is, it's a pretty romantic view which only serves to bite you on the arse when things go wrong. And they can, and do.
Um....Saab. Sniff.
No emotion in that affinity at all. Sniff. 
I agree with you Rocket. The styling isn't as forward as Ducati or KTM's new offering. Buell has always been function over form. I believe I remember reading somewhere that Erik has to approve the adding of any part to the design and that the part should be able to do more than one function if possible. Could be folklore. The looks of the R, S, Uly, STT, etc. are not appealing to everyone. Most in fact. What killed it more was the "spec sheet" evaluation of Buells in comparison to other bikes. The spec sheets do not allow for the entrance of emotion in the riding experience. Many here have opted for less raw HP to gain the fun experience that the tubers and XB provided. I assume it's why you still own your "torture rack" tuber. It's fun to ride.
The 1125R provides an entrance into the "spec sheet" competitiveness. Many bought their Buells in spite of the spec sheet. Now, people might buy the Buell because of the spec sheet. The looks are a consideration for sure. I just don't know how much of a consideration they will be. Time will tell.
I would say that the vast majority of the initial purchases of 1125Rs has come from the Buell community. I am more interested in the new, never owned a Buell before, sales numbers.
Nothing is set in stone. Changes can be made in the appearance and the aftermarket is splendid at providing solutions to take bikes from the showroom to the final vision of the buyer.
Besides, no one understands those who don't "farkle". They are a sickness unto themselves. |
86129squids
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 10:03 am: |
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I keep hearing echoes of Pirsig here-
Maybe Rocket=Phaedrus?
Maybe not.
The question of classical vs. romantic views of the 1125R a la "Zen" provides much fertile soil (compost?) for discussion.
Quality. Time will tell its story. |
Torquemonster
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 02:00 pm: |
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I see and respect your point Rocket...but I just dont purchase anything major that doesnt ignite some kind of emotional spark inside me. Ever gone to a dealership, saw something and said, "Eh, its alright I guess....I'll take it." Me neither.
Buell does it for me, and so much, that I view the little Buell nuances as part of the romance of it all.
I guess Im sporting a perpetual kool-aid moustache to accompany "the grin".
I realize that I will probably never be a professional racer, so stats and numbers arent that big of a factor for me. If I was, then my opinion of Buells very well may change (save the 1125 @ 146 HP). Realistically, it would be absolutely silly/career suicide to attempt to utilize a piece of equipment that cannot perform to a necessary standard of competitiveness- if the desire to compete is the intention. You may as well not even leave the starting line, or pit row for that matter.
(You'll find me doing wheelies and burnouts in the parking lot...laughing maniacally)
Unfortunately, my ocd/scatterbrained-ness and slim time allotment for posting didnt allow me the opp. to make my post as clear/eloquent as I had wished. Maybe I shouldnt have even entertained the thought of stating my position if a thorough execution was out of reach....but I felt compelled to say something....anything.
I guess in a muddled, unclear way, I was just trying to say that it truly is different strokes for different folks.
(whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Rocket!? sorry...my Arnold Drummond impression REALLY sucks)
I can read between the lines and see that you are not truly wishing ill upon Erik and BMC, but rather that you are disenchanted with the current status of product output and wish it wasnt as such. i.e.-I think that you WANT to dig the Buells deep down inside- and thats enough for me. You "get it" more than the local ricers Im "forced" to mingle with (playing lone wolf gets old after a while) and Im cool with that.
You stated that "I feel..." not "The 1125 is in fact, tired". Ft_B is obviously a passionate Bueller and you have to appreciate that for what it is. The phenomena of such a massive, loyal following is something to marvel at. Not many companies bolster such emotion for their product as BMC does. Maybe theres a reason for it that you just dont get. Youre not wrong for it, but maybe it just doesnt click for you like it does some of us, and thats okay. Nothings wrong with being more analytical than emotional- unless you want to argue that others are wrong for not bowing down to accept the opposite of how they truly feel. I applaud both of you for having the balls to state your opinions so fearlessly. It is in fact, one of the things that makes this such a great board.
I will say that I thoroughly enjoy reading the retorts that are created when opposing viewpoints get heated. I guess Im a closet drama queen, er, king. The images you guys dig up and viewpoints you throw at eachother make for a thought provoking/ sometimes hilariously entertaining read.
I say that as long as noone posts blatant malicious trashtalk about Erik and company, all are welcome. Through patience, education, and tolerance, we may just be able to help Erik make a few new friends and gain some ourselves in the process.
Cheers! |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 02:17 pm: |
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Sean,
That was in general a nice thoughtful post. Thanks for that. Just a couple comments...
"We can all look at a Ferrari 250 Lusso and not one person on the planet could fail to see its stunning beauty and appeal."
Not one person? I'm one. For me it is entirely unappealing. I have no doubt that there are plenty of others who feel likewise. Sean, you seem to imagine that if you yourself hold something in high regard, then everyone must do the same. It isn't so. When it comes to subjective opinions on things like looks, some folks will always disagree. The sooner you figure this out, the sooner you might avoid alienating others with your absolutist proclamations.
"We all know what a motorcycle should look like."
Another ridiculous, in my opinion, absolutist proclamation. I would say that some people have deeply entrenched preconceptions of what they think a motorcycle should look like.
Personally, I'm willing to entertain any and all new presentations for how a motorcycle can look. The verdict of success will be in sales. Then again, some folks really don't care much about the looks of their motorcycle. I'm not one of them.
"That Buell have or had an opportunity to stun the motorcycling world with a new motorcycle bearing the fruits of a new modern state of the art engine, but didn't..."
Another absolutist proclamation. The truth is that Buell haven't stunned you with their 1125R. They have irrefutably stunned some, even many.
The sporting motorcycle market's verdict concerning the Buell 1125R is as yet undetermined and indeterminable.
Being disappointed that Buell haven't stunned you with their most recent product is perfectly fine. We can all probably relate to that at some time or another. Disappointment is perfectly understandable and entirely palatable. It is that which may seem to others like relentless almost militant contrariety, always seeming to oppose any optimistic or glowing views, that is not so palatable; it's more alienating.
Thanks for avoiding that on this go round.
I look forward to your test ride report. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 02:42 pm: |
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Luso? It looks like a Chevy Vega to me... honest.
(and I was never a fan of the Vega either...)
Somebody ought to add up the "area under the curve" for a 1098S / R1 / 1125R / GSXR750 / GSXR1000. I'm not quite sure how you would do it though... is more RPM's really an advantage? Or should all RPM scales be normalized and then you take the area.
What I am trying to get at is something that will better reflect "usable power", which has to be an area under the curve thing.
Help! |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 03:17 pm: |
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OK,,,,my turn! I'm joining the ranks of the offended at this point (wife's hollering at me to hurry up so excuse the noise.)
I loved the Vega hatchback -- we dropped a small block in one and it was all go from that point forward,,,no literally it was all go because we didn't do anything to the brakes or suspension. (yea, it was a backyard engineering marvel so it did have some rough edges that are smoothed out with the age of the memories) |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 03:20 pm: |
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Ferris, I really don't see where I singled out Mr Buell. I don't believe he designed the 1125 single handed, or anywhere close to. Buell is a team of people within a company specialising in making motorcycles predominantly for a recreational market. So, a Buell is a toy for grown ups really. We don't need to be psychologists to work out how much importance we place on our toys, no matter our age. Perhaps as adults, we place more importance on them. Especially so when they have wheels. Grown up toys are also made by grown ups, and somewhere in there is the reason why we buy into other peoples dreams, visions and desires. It's maybe why we feel we're in our toy makers gang too. We're certainly lead to believe we are when the marketing gurus target us, so why should I not be allowed to tell my toy maker what toys I like, want, or would change around? It's nothing personal. I just want my gang to be the best gang. If not, then I might join another gang. And if we all did, it would be a pretty crummy gang we left.
Rocket |
Ferris_von_bueller
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 03:58 pm: |
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Travis, you were about four years old when Jim Jones was leading approximately 900 people to their deaths with cyanide-laced Kool-aid.
This is a discussion board not a Glee club, or at least I think so. Differing viewpoints should be encouraged , as long as they are presented in a thoughtful and respectful manner. I think all too often we characterize opinions that differ with ours as being hostile and malicious when, in fact, they are just not what we want to hear. It may justify one's sense of community and belonging to run the Buell flag up the pole but I don't think it serves the company well in the long run. Criticism or feedback or whatever you call it is required by any company if they want to remain competitive. Always hearing the same drum beat is non-productive. Why do you think Buell asks for rider input by way of a questionnaire after a demo ride? |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 04:09 pm: |
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Not one person? I'm one. For me it is entirely unappealing. I have no doubt that there are plenty of others who feel likewise. Sean, you seem to imagine that if you yourself hold something in high regard, then everyone must do the same. It isn't so. When it comes to subjective opinions on things like looks, some folks will always disagree. The sooner you figure this out, the sooner you might avoid alienating others with your absolutist proclamations.
I wasn't being absolutist. I was attempting to put us all on the same page as a starting point, so I chose the 250 Lusso in an effort to generalise. Solely in the hope that we could agree a base line of opinion. I notice you make no similar comment regarding the Black Shadow. Why is that? Something to do with subjective choice / opinion? Or do you agree it's one of the most attractive motorcycles ever made? Be careful. You might sound absolutist in your reply 
Another ridiculous, in my opinion, absolutist proclamation. I would say that some people have deeply entrenched preconceptions of what they think a motorcycle should look like.
You're splitting hairs. We all do know what a motorcycle looks like, and the next sentence I wrote added further direction to add a little clarity " We all know how different styling appeals to some and not others." Simply put, all motorcycles pretty much look the same in their basic design. Two wheels and an engine in the middle with a seat on top.
Another absolutist proclamation. The truth is that Buell haven't stunned you with their 1125R. They have irrefutably stunned some, even many.
But not like the 1098 or KTM RC8. How about the MV Brutale or BMW HP2? Then there's the Ducati Hypermoto or the latest Yamahe R6. All these bikes have a huge amount of wow factor. So much so in many cases that they are recognised as style icons outside of the motorcycling world. It's not a criticism, but I don't see and haven't seen the same happening to the 1125 or the XBTT for that matter.
The Apple iPod is taking the world by storm. You could just as well see it in a magazine feature about contemporary styling, sat on a page next to a Terence Conran chair, Riva speedboat, Sony's first Trinitron TV, and quite likely a Ducati Hypermoto. I don't see Buell on that page. What's more disappointing for me personally is I once did. Remember the late great S1W White Lightning. Buells today are no doubt great bikes, but over the years they've lost the feel of exclusivity one can't help but associate with a Ducati or Bimota. So no, I don't believe the 1125 has stunned anyone outside of the Buell community. I want my Buell company to do that. Is that such a bad thing to want?
The sporting motorcycle market's verdict concerning the Buell 1125R is as yet undetermined and indeterminable.
Blake, that's just you nit picking. We can all see what's coming, and even if there is a surprise in store, it is not going to be that big of a surprise it will stun the motorcycling world, will it? Especially if a lot of the pre production magazine tests are to be believed.
Being disappointed that Buell haven't stunned you with their most recent product is perfectly fine. We can all probably relate to that at some time or another. Disappointment is perfectly understandable and entirely palatable. It is that which may seem to others like relentless almost militant contrariety, always seeming to oppose any optimistic or glowing views, that is not so palatable; it's more alienating.
I'll continue to strive towards a more concerned for others approach. Thanks too. By the way, you're wrong about the Lusso.
Rocket |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 04:15 pm: |
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woaaahhh.
Duuuude
I should be stoned....
Anybody wanna party? |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 04:28 pm: |
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anytime! |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 04:33 pm: |
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If the looks of the 1125r p*** off Squidlydidley in his flourescent green and pink leathers and bright green motorcycle,then I'm all for it.
I'm looking forward to 'If you aren't in my mirrors - I CAN"T SEE YOU!' |
Hexangler
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 04:47 pm: |
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Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 04:49 pm: |
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F_v_b:
This is a discussion board not a Glee club, or at least I
think so. Differing viewpoints should be encouraged , as long as they
are presented in a thoughtful and respectful manner.
i couldn't agree more - thank you for putting it so succinctly.
BadWeB has a LONG history of encouraging thoughtful, respectful
viewpoints. i applaud Blake for continually nurturing this
environment, and all the wonderful contributors to this board who are
able to express a different, or even perhaps dissenting, opinion
with respect and courtesy for their fellow man/woman.
it's telling, i think, that one of the custodians of BadWeB, a fellow
tied with Blake for being the oldest member of this board, doesn't
even ride a Buell, and, in fact, was a little critical of Buell in a
recent post:
http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=4062&post=1030879#POST1030879
this place is no where near as Kool-Aid as you or others would have us believe.
it IS at its core, however, a place for Buell enthusiasts.
FB |
Torquemonster
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 05:05 pm: |
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Von Bueller....
Yes, I was about 4 years old. Im sorry... I fail to see your point. Please elaborate...
Also, I dont know if the rest of your post was directed at me, but I agree with you wholeheartedly about diff of opinion = GOOD.... Yes men = BAD. I thought I stated the same viewpoint in my own post but maybe I shouldnt sit to the left of Danger Dave and Slaughter. <cough,>
The "dutchie" must be interfering with my ability to effectively communicate.
BTW...This clock is about 4 hours early,
but then again....its 4:20 somewhere....
(Message edited by TORQUEMONSTER on December 18, 2007) |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 05:15 pm: |
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Ferris...why should I not be allowed to tell my toy maker what toys I like, want, or would change around? It's nothing personal.
Rocket, i'm all for a positive discourse on any aspect of the Buell motorcycle, even if it's a negative opinion.
my post to you at the top of this page was positive, thanking YOU for being positive.
i'm aware that we all have different threshholds as to what constitutes constructive criticism vs. malicious, mean-spirited, personal attack.
all i wanted to do in my post above was say thanks for configuring your words, even tho some of them were negative, in a more positive manner.
in fact, i went so far as to agree with you on some points (something that hasn't happened in a while), and also (admittedly gently) criticised Buell myself.
anyone with a long history on BadWeB, such as yourself, knows this place is NOT "All Kool-Aid, all the time."
however, it's reasonable to assume that if someone gets on here and bags on Buell in what is generally seen as a negative, mean-spirited way, that some of The Faithful might also have a thing or two to say, perhaps delivered in the same manner.
i hope you get a chance very soon to flog a new 1125R. i like your writing style, and would be delighted to read your report.
take care,
FB |
Hootowl
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 05:16 pm: |
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I can sum up the reason I bought a Buell in one simple phrase: 1996 S1 Lightning. I was drawn to it like a moth to a flame. The 1125R does not evoke the same feelings in me, and I wish it did. The XB series didn't either, though they have grown on me. Perhaps this one will too.
Jeff |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 05:27 pm: |
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"Older members"? Ahem! You mean "longtime members", yes?
Sean,
I give. My free time is not enough to reply. Stay tuned for the 1125R market's reception results. We'll talk later next Summer on that.
Honestly don't see much difference in the introduction and level of acclaim surrounding the 1125R versus any of the other bikes you listed. Certainly not from my own point of view. I was pretty much underwhelmed with the 1098 and still think that the 996/998 platform was much better looking. The only bike that really caught me eye from a design perspective was the Hypermotard. I REALLY like that bike's looks.
I don't see any of the Japan Inc models ever garnering the type of passion that Buell and the Euro manufacturers can generate.
Yes, I like the Vincent, but that is my personal taste. Not everyone likes it. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 07:10 pm: |
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Ferris, I understood all of your comments. I only wanted to point out that I am upset when I'm accused of insulting Erik personally. That's not what I'm about.
And thanks for your other words. They help keep a leash on me, lol.
Be well.
Rocket |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 07:14 pm: |
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Blake, I give too. I'm tired out with all this typing. I have bags under my eyes.
Rocket |
Court
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 07:20 pm: |
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>>>My free time is not enough to reply. Stay tuned for the 1125R market's reception results.
Make that two of us . . . I don't even read crap like this anymore.
The one saving grace is that this is the greatest number of times the words "I assume" . . "I think" . . "in my opinion" and "I notice" . . "I stated" and many other sorts of qualifying non-qualifiers have appeared.
Ohhhhhhh. . . . to have that much free time and be spared explaining Polar Moment of Inerita . . .
It is . . "the precise instant an Eskimo decides to leave" right? |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 07:31 pm: |
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Wrong - The Eskimo leaves when you tell this joke:
This polar bear cub goes up to his mum and says
'Mum - I haven't got any Koala Bear or Grizzly bear in me have I?
'No - of course not son - you are a pure bred polar bear - go ask your father.'
......
'Dad - I haven't got any Brown Bear or other bear in me have I?'
'No Son - you are pure bred Polar Bear - why do you Ask.'
'I'm f***ing Cold!'. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 08:15 pm: |
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That's too funny! LOL!
Thanks Danger Man!  |
Littlebuggles
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 05:56 am: |
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Just want to post regarding the original statement that started all this. I didn't think the bike looked amazing, but good in photos. In the flesh it's a great looking bike. Handling was great and a blast to ride on the track.
The first Buell(s) I ever saw (1998) turned me on to the bike immediately - absolutely in love/lust at first sight. Several test rides and I was sold for sure, saving nickels and waiting for a screaming deal that eventually came along.
After riding the new bike I'd like to have one, but would never sell my M2 to get one, course I'd never sell my M2 to get ANY other bike.
I like the 1125R, if I hadn't bought my wife a brand new car this year I'd probably seriously be thinking of getting the new Buell.
(...but then, did you guys read that article about modifying (dirt) 450 singles for road racing? Ohhh, sounds like something I'd like to spend money on...)
-Mike
(Message edited by littlebuggles on December 19, 2007) |
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